In U.S., 46% Hold Creationist View of Human Origins

reply to post by Noncompatible


You are actually quite wrong about this. People can easily have Faith and still question things.

I have Faith in God yet this doesn't mean that I think I know everything, thus I of course still seek out knowledge of how things work.

Science is not at odds with Faith... they are just two different avenues of achieving understanding and belief.

Further, they can often lead to the exact same conclusions. In other words Something cannot be discarded simply because it is arrived at according to Faith. That's not to say that it should be instantly accepted either but science confirms Faith based assumptions all the time.

Thats the nature of Theories. God is a theory for the Origin of our existence.. believed by Faith.. we will all eventually know whether that Theory holds true or not.

Scientific theories are no different, they must first be believed by Faith, the only difference is we can actual test scientific theories and discard them if they fail.

God cannot be tested in the same way... His existence will only be evident to all when the finite meets the infinite. When time gives way to eternity. (of course this in itself is an event to be believed by faith)

Science and Faith can lead us to the same conclusions. They are not inherent enemies and they can work together hand in hand.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Furbs

 

Never had any trouble with my Back

It doesn't change the facts as I presented them.

But actually Christians don't think the World is Perfect, sorry to shatter your paradigm there. We think the world is corrupted, fallen, and full of imperfection.

There is no paradigm to shatter. Chemistry and Physics -are- perfect. They work the same way every time. If something is abhorrent, it isn't a flaw in Physics or Chemistry, it is a flaw in our understanding of them.

I had a good friend die yesterday 40 days after a bone marrow transplant attempt. He was 32, has suffered with crohn's disease for years among other ailments prior to his bone marrow turning on him. He died young, after much suffering, leaving behind a wife and 3 kids. And he went out Praising God for the life that he lived.

Christians believe that suffering is inherent to this world and that both the world and its inhabitants are in need of redemption. That things will one day be restored to perfection.

I thought Christians believed that the world was redeemed through that Jesus guy..

It is not however part of our world view that there are not flaws present in our bodies.

It is part of MY world view that anyone claiming Intelligent Design should evidence that it was designed intelligently.

Why is Christianity the correct religion? Why Not Zoroastrianism? Taoism? Buddhism?

reply to post by Furbs


So you think you could start from scratch with nothing... no matter, no chemicals.. no dna.. nothing.. and you could produce something more impressive then the Human Body??

If you could not.. would you take this as a sign that you are unintelligent?

If the design of the human body is so devoid of intelligence.. why is there nothing that man has created that can touch its capabilities??

We are versatile beings capable of accomplishing numerous diverse and impressive feats and can literally fuel our bodies with water and carrots or the carb source of your choice.

I'm quite impressed with the human body and its systems. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

Soul

Originally posted by Furbs


Why is Christianity the correct religion? Why Not Zoroastrianism? Taoism? Buddhism?

Sorry forgot to respond to your question.

My Faith is in the Judeo-Christian God. Or as Scripture refers to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

My Faith is in his Promise to redeem my Body and Soul after Death. I will inherit the blessing of my Faith if he is indeed there to fulfill it... I will Suffer the Loss of my Faith if he is not.

The other religions each have their own objects of Faith and they will suffer blessing or loss according to the reality or non reality of the object of their Faith.

It really isn't about which Religion is "right" or "wrong" according to human arguments

its about whose God is real or not real. So I've got all my chips in one basket so to speak, but I'm glad to have them there and I'm prepared to reap the consequences one way or the other.

Either my God is Powerful, Alive, and Present or he is not. I look forward to his unveiling.

Soul

Originally posted by SoulReaper
You guys are a real riot,.

You all still run and hide from the facts of modern biology. A living Organism is not just a jumbled together mess of randomly organized chemicals.

We gave you what you asked for, what more do you want? We have a model that explains how living (by common definition of the term) cells could have arisen.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
Its amazing that you actually think observing simple chemical reactions occurring spontaneously gives legs to abiogenesis as a theory/ hypothosis (i really don't care what you want to call it).

It's a lot more than you've provided for your hypothesis. We have evidence that it can occur. We have models that demonstrate how it can occur. This is exactly what you ask for, yet you flat out deny it and mock us while clinging to your blind faith.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
The process of how those Chemicals managed to find themselves in the complex structures found in even the smallest self sufficient living organisms is what must be explained by the anti-theist for their fairy tale to even be considered credible.

No, that's not what you asked for. You're asking for evidence for abiogenesis, which we provided. Nice bait and switch, but we won't fall for it.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
You people actually believe that all the information, structure and mechanisms found in the living cell arose out of MUTATIONS...

Mutations can explain this. Tell us why this is impossible?

Originally posted by SoulReaper
You guys have Faith that an abnormality which almost always cripples or kills life.. somehow magically got it right millions of times even though this cannot be proven.

That's a misunderstanding. Most mutations are benign or inert.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
but if you keep trying to tell me that the complexity of the Living Organism arose out of a chemical soup on the back of millions of "fortunate" mutations... I'm afraid I'll just have to keep laughing at your delusions.

Really that can't be the best that secular society can come up with.. or is it??

This is where the conversation ends. You've already made up your mind before we even tried to answer your questions. You slam us for "adhering to faith" yet you make that mistake yourself. You slap down everything we throw at you and pretend that it's laughable, when you don't have any evidence to the contrary. You are using only your subjective opinion to argue against objective observations.

When you have a real argument, feel free to make it.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Noncompatible

 

You are actually quite wrong about this. People can easily have Faith and still question things.

I have Faith in God yet this doesn't mean that I think I know everything, thus I of course still seek out knowledge of how things work.

Science is not at odds with Faith... they are just two different avenues of achieving understanding and belief.

Further, they can often lead to the exact same conclusions. In other words Something cannot be discarded simply because it is arrived at according to Faith. That's not to say that it should be instantly accepted either but science confirms Faith based assumptions all the time.

Thats the nature of Theories. God is a theory for the Origin of our existence.. believed by Faith.. we will all eventually know whether that Theory holds true or not.

Scientific theories are no different, they must first be believed by Faith, the only difference is we can actual test scientific theories and discard them if they fail.

God cannot be tested in the same way... His existence will only be evident to all when the finite meets the infinite. When time gives way to eternity. (of course this in itself is an event to be believed by faith)

Science and Faith can lead us to the same conclusions. They are not inherent enemies and they can work together hand in hand.

Soul

Some irony in the fact that you reply with an absolute.

So yes the scientific method can be tested and hypothesis can be proven to be wrong. Nice of you to concede that.

Strange that you believe a deity can not, as it would appear humanity has tested and found wanting many gods. Yours is simply one amongst a veritable horde of deities both past and present (and sadly if true future).

Faith and science can indeed co-exist, until one makes the mistake of "believing" they have anything in common.......

Unless you indeed to use the scientific method to prove the existence of said deity. If you do I wish you lots of luck, you will need it.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
reply to post by Furbs

 

So you think you could start from scratch with nothing... no matter, no chemicals.. no dna.. nothing.. and you could produce something more impressive then the Human Body??

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

If you could not.. would you take this as a sign that you are unintelligent?

If I were able to create a universe and then messed up on the denizens, I would consider them unintelligently designed, yes.

If the design of the human body is so devoid of intelligence.. why is there nothing that man has created that can touch its capabilities??

I created a male human and a female human. That puts me on par with the Christian God's accomplishments in that arena.

We are versatile beings capable of accomplishing numerous diverse and impressive feats and can literally fuel our bodies with water and carrots or the carb source of your choice.

I'm quite impressed with the human body and its systems. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment.

Soul

I'm impressed as well. I just don't think it was designed, and nothing you have ever stated backs up the claim that it was.

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by Furbs


Why is Christianity the correct religion? Why Not Zoroastrianism? Taoism? Buddhism?

Sorry forgot to respond to your question.

My Faith is in the Judeo-Christian God. Or as Scripture refers to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

My Faith is in his Promise to redeem my Body and Soul after Death. I will inherit the blessing of my Faith if he is indeed there to fulfill it... I will Suffer the Loss of my Faith if he is not.

The other religions each have their own objects of Faith and they will suffer blessing or loss according to the reality or non reality of the object of their Faith.

It really isn't about which Religion is "right" or "wrong" according to human arguments

its about whose God is real or not real. So I've got all my chips in one basket so to speak, but I'm glad to have them there and I'm prepared to reap the consequences one way or the other.

Either my God is Powerful, Alive, and Present or he is not. I look forward to his unveiling.

Soul

edit on 11-6-2012 by SoulReaper because: (no reason given)

In the meantime, I will rely on something that has already paid dividends.

Scientific Human Progress

Have fun with your fairytales.

reply to post by PieKeeper


The fact that you find it reasonable that Mutations caused the complexity and intricate interdependent systems found in a living cell and subsequently in the human body as a whole tells me all I need to know about your comprehension of the plausibility of your theory.

You simple do not understand the difficulty of what you are proposing, nor do you understand how impossible the odds are that this is true.

In fact it is doubtful that it could ever be shown to be even remotely plausible.

The notion is FAR FAR from proven... You claiming that mutations can accomplish this is not an argument. Its a statement that deserves scrutiny.. thats all I'm asking for.

I'm asking you to actually use Science to consider the argument. Instead of Dogma, where mutations HAVE to be the correct answer because you literally have no other alternative other then to admit that design was involved.

You guys truly are so amusing, acting like you "KNOW" more then me... its hilarious. I have the same resources available to me as the rest of you. I have read article after article and study after study, trying to find a non-theist who can actually explain this process that occurred where mutations evolved life into what we see today.

It doesn't exist. There is not one so called "expert" who can articulate how this could have happened. And yet still you will sit there and pompously act like it is a proven fact that it could happen. It simply isn't and all your condescending responses do not change the reality that you have NO WORKING theory for how Life originated and came to be in the form that it exits at this present day.

Eventually you will understand that I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE AN ARGUMENT HERE. I am asking for the details of this supposedly Working theory of Science that provides the answers needed for a Godless existence.

And simultaneously I am discovering that Atheists pretty much have one Single response to a challenge to their belief structures...

Ridicule of Faith.

In other words you seem to think that your position is viable and plausible simply because your not the one who believes in God via Faith.

How does that work exactly?? How is what you propose plausible simply because you don't believe in what I believe in??

If you really maintain that it has been PROVEN that Life could originate from chemicals randomly combining and then mutations randomly Adding complexity and useful information, then I can only conclude that you do not understand science, biology, nor what the it means for something to be proven.

I'm sorry, but you clearly haven't studied this as much as I have. And believe me, I have been searching for some time to find a non-theist who can explain these things to me... Yet I just keep finding more and more who blindly believe the claims of the secular scientific community, and refuse to address the glaring problems of their theories.

Do you even understand what it is you are claiming to have happened? Do you understand the odds? I'd rather think not from the nature of your responses.

Soul

For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Divinity; so that they are without excuse.

The fool hath said in His heart, There is no ELOHIYM. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him


I do not have the kind of faith that can see all the things made and believe that everthing just created itself out of nothing

The Devastation of Evolution - Chirality (Evolution is a "Catastrophic Failure")

www.youtube.com...



Faith is the substance of thingse hoped for the EVIDENCE of things not seen.



Baruch atah YHWH YESHUA, Melech haOlam

reply to post by SoulReaper


Evolution = scientific theory and proven to the same extent as gravity!!
Abiogenesis = hypothesis...not proven like evolution as the evidence isn't 100% (yet)
Creationism = not even a hypothesis, there's ZERO objective evidence supporting it

Originally posted by SoulReaper
Religion isn't interested in Proving God to anyone. Religion is interested in Presenting God to everyone.. it requires Faith to Believe in something that you cannot see.

According to Christians, the only way to Have this sort of Faith is by an act of God himself. Causing his spirit to indwell the believer and implant Faith from Within. Thus our Faith is not born out of exterior Proof, but rather inward transformation according to Gods Will.

Thus if he is not at work in you... you will not just be unwilling to have Faith in Him, you are in fact incapable of it. Yet He will prove Himself to all on that day of days at the end of the Ages. When you are quickened to the judgement after death, you will know the truth of the matter.. though I hope for your sake you embrace him sooner.

Wait a second, first you said that God made me incapable to have Faith in Him (there is not free will, is there) and then I will be judged, after I died.Where is hope in world without free will?

Originally posted by SoulReaperOf course you don't believe a word of that and you won't until it is Proven to you. You are asking the wrong people to prove God to you... That is not our task... God will take care of that himself in his own timing.

Are you saying that is not my fault that I don't have faith?

Originally posted by SoulReaper
As for Synthetic Cells.. I Say go for it, why would that concern me? How many of those Synthetic Cells created themselves? What do you think they are going to prove about the origin of life?

Synthetic cells are creating more synthetic cells, just give them some time. Just like Lenin once said, “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.”

We live in time like that, when decades happens.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
Scientific theories are no different, they must first be believed by Faith, the only difference is we can actual test scientific theories and discard them if they fail.

God cannot be tested in the same way... His existence will only be evident to all when the finite meets the infinite. When time gives way to eternity. (of course this in itself is an event to be believed by faith)

Science and Faith can lead us to the same conclusions. They are not inherent enemies and they can work together hand in hand.

Soul

And in history, what happened to those whose theories did not comply with faithful thinking?

We already saw how science and religion work hand in hand, with one binding hands of other, and your disregard for all work done in genetics here and disapproval of scitists and their works shows the best how well science and religion work together.

It is just another hope...

Originally posted by SoulReaper

Originally posted by Furbs


Why is Christianity the correct religion? Why Not Zoroastrianism? Taoism? Buddhism?

Sorry forgot to respond to your question.

My Faith is in the Judeo-Christian God. Or as Scripture refers to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

My Faith is in his Promise to redeem my Body and Soul after Death. I will inherit the blessing of my Faith if he is indeed there to fulfill it... I will Suffer the Loss of my Faith if he is not.

The other religions each have their own objects of Faith and they will suffer blessing or loss according to the reality or non reality of the object of their Faith.

It really isn't about which Religion is "right" or "wrong" according to human arguments

its about whose God is real or not real. So I've got all my chips in one basket so to speak, but I'm glad to have them there and I'm prepared to reap the consequences one way or the other.

Either my God is Powerful, Alive, and Present or he is not. I look forward to his unveiling.

Soul

edit on 11-6-2012 by SoulReaper because: (no reason given)

My parents used to tell me the story of a magical being who could in one night visit all the children of earth and give them a present. Now as a child I believed them after all WHY would my parents lie to me.

As we all know Santa is a story along with the Tooth Fairy, The Boggeyman,Easter Bunny etc etc.

TAKE KIDS FROM A YOUNG AGE and go on and on about a god some will continue to believe others will learn to think for themselves

As for your god if he is not there you will never know!!!!

Disregarding the ~3.7 billion year struggle of your ancestors for you to have the chance to exist and experience the Universe, and claiming that they never even existed and that some magic being just created everything much later, is so ungrateful and ignorant. Creationists are basically taking a # on their ancestors. Tsk tsk.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
If the design of the human body is so devoid of intelligence.. why is there nothing that man has created that can touch its capabilities??

What do you mean there's nothing that man has created than can touch its capabilities? We've created machines that can calculate things trillions of times faster than humans. We've created machines that can move thousands of times faster (and longer distances) than humans. We've created things that work much longer than the human body. What's left? A machine that truly surpasses humans in intelligence? Nope. IBM's Watson sort of did that already. Keep in mind that we've been building things for mere thousands of years. Meanwhile, our body evolved over a time-span of some 3.7 billion years..

Originally posted by INDOMITABLE

Evolution is not concrete.I don't care what scientist say.

You can't get much more of a fail than that........holy moley what arrogance...

So you don't care whether or not the things you believe are true or not, you think you know better than 99% of the worlds scientists, and....what......everything accomplished through science was just blind luck?

You make post after post making claim after claim about science and evolution, yet its blatantly clear to anyone who takes the time to read them that you know nothing about either subject. All you have is your opinion,

It's 2012, and we have people such as yourself who wilfully retard their own (and anyone who listens to you) understanding of reality aswell as infesting our children with ignorance. This wouldn't really be such a big deal if if weren't for the fact that we all have to live on this rock together, but we do.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
The fact that you find it reasonable that Mutations caused the complexity and intricate interdependent systems found in a living cell and subsequently in the human body as a whole tells me all I need to know about your comprehension of the plausibility of your theory.

In other words, you don't like it, so it's automatically wrong. Sorry, but 99% of scientists (you know the people that study these things for a living) agree with mutations and natural selection being responsible for the diversity of life on earth. It's not like its some random guess, scientists have observed it.

You simple do not understand the difficulty of what you are proposing, nor do you understand how impossible the odds are that this is true.

And I assume you DO know the odds? By all means, break it down instead of ignoring everything that contradicts your world view.

I'm asking you to actually use Science to consider the argument. Instead of Dogma, where mutations HAVE to be the correct answer because you literally have no other alternative other then to admit that design was involved.

How much genetics have you studied? Nobody is claiming that mutations have to be correct just because we don't know the answer. That is YOUR logic for believing in god, not the logic the scientists have used. The mutation rate can be measured. Genetic diversity is passed from parents to offspring, which determines their features (ie blond, brunette, blue eyes, brown eyes, skin color, etc). Various mutations are measurable and determine physical appearance. I'm just wondering what exactly are you denying here? Mutations are real and are proven to exist, just google "mutation rate" and you'll find plenty of experiments that verify this. You can measure the mutation rate for ANY SPECIES ON EARTH. I challenge you to find one single species this doesn't apply to.

You guys truly are so amusing, acting like you "KNOW" more then me... its hilarious. I have the same resources available to me as the rest of you. I have read article after article and study after study, trying to find a non-theist who can actually explain this process that occurred where mutations evolved life into what we see today.

Well, technically you have demonstrated a clear lack of knowledge on evolution, the process therein, and ignorance of genetic mutations and the evidence that confirms it. I'm not saying I know more than you, but science does, and if you aren't a scientist you really are not qualified to comment on DNA and the role mutations play in our genetics and evolution as a species.

It doesn't exist. There is not one so called "expert" who can articulate how this could have happened.

learn.genetics.utah.edu...

This is how genetic mutations are caused.

And yet still you will sit there and pompously act like it is a proven fact that it could happen.

The only one being pompous is you. Science is based on fact, religion on faith. You are claiming your faith is fact and that scientific facts are faith. That is completely backwards.

It simply isn't and all your condescending responses do not change the reality that you have NO WORKING theory for how Life originated and came to be in the form that it exits at this present day.

And I'm assuming you do?

If you really maintain that it has been PROVEN that Life could originate from chemicals randomly combining and then mutations randomly Adding complexity and useful information, then I can only conclude that you do not understand science, biology, nor what the it means for something to be proven

People aren't claiming that its been proven. Every single response to you has clearly stated that abiogenesis is a hypothesis with only a little evidence to back it. You are having issues accepting this, and it's clear that you don't consider science to be fact based. That's a shame. Evolution is not abiogenesis, however, so I'm not sure why you are equating the 2. They are completely separate fields of study.

I'm sorry, but you clearly haven't studied this as much as I have. And believe me, I have been searching for some time to find a non-theist who can explain these things to me...

It HAS been explained to you numerous times in this thread. You immediately reject it, however, so you can't blame that on people not explaining it to you. You can only blame that on yourself.

Yet I just keep finding more and more who blindly believe the claims of the secular scientific community, and refuse to address the glaring problems of their theories.

So you claim you have studied and researched this, yet flat out reject it. What exactly do you think science is??? The scientific community isn't secular, stop equating science with atheism. It is dishonest and you clearly don't understand science, or you wouldn't understand that evolution and belief in a god are compatible.

Originally posted by SoulReaper
My Faith is in the Judeo-Christian God.

What is that anyway? The God of Jews and the God of Christians seem like two completely different (imaginary) entities to me. The Jewish God is genocidal and angry and favors one ethnicity over others. The Christian one is a lot stranger, it's somehow the same than the Jewish God except that according to Christians it doesn't care about most past rules (e.g. changed it mind), although his supposed son said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." According to Christians it's such a nice character, but in the light of the Old Testament I don't see how that's possible..

reply to post by MrXYZ


Like I heve said over and over

I'm not trying to Prove creation here.. Ex nihilo is believed according to Faith... it can not be understood according to science. Science has no methodology to study such a concept except to proclaim that according to natural processes... it is impossible.

Evolution (in the limited capacity that I believe it) doesn't even approach explaining a godless existence. There is no intelligent argument that presents Evolution as a replacement for Creation. Evolution is so limited in its scope that it might as well not even be part of the conversation.

And again what I am looking for is a PLAUSIBLE alternative to the Origin of matter, energy, space, time and Life.

Abiogenesis is so Weak that it is being discarded by the members of secular society who actually use their intellect to consider the theory rather then blindly following a dogma where "Anything but God" is viable and plausible.

Join the rest of us who are interested in using our intellects to consider these matters.

Abiogenesis hasn't even begun to provide plausible proof of its viability. If I threw a bunch of logs, nails, sheet rock, and shingles in a big pile, would you believe me if I told you that if we left it there for millions of years that earthquakes, wind, updrafts and flooding would cause those materials to randomly join together to form a precisely built level House?

What you asking me to believe is FAR more unlikely and not credible. If you can't understand this, please spend some time studying what is necessary for a Living Organism to function.

You once again use an argument of Well I don't believe what you believe.. so what I believe doesn't need any proof.

And you know what i would be fine with this, so long as you admit that you Believe in the Impossible happining according to Faith without Proof.

As long as you are honest and admit that you are committed to a religious Belief in "anything but God" and that you are not resting purely on what has been ACTUALLY PROVEN as plausible by Science.

This abiogenesis nonsense and subsequent "Evolution by Mutation" fantasy are not Proven as plausible. You have to be delusional to say that they have been.

The challange still remains, can someone please point out to me a plausible working theory that explains how Mutations could have slowly bit by bit evolved the complex living organisms that we see today?

Simply Claiming that Mutations Could have done it, is not proof. I don't even need typical Lab proof where they are able to duplicate the process.

I just want a actual plausible Working Theory on paper.. that shows How the Complex Living Organism slowly evolved its necessary mechanisms over time... while still remaining viable and alive.

Of course this would require that you actually study the biology and functions of the living Cell and then consider logically the odds of what you claim is so obvious and plausible.

I doubt you will do it... I rather think you will continue to run and hide from doing any real thinking regarding these matters and continue to post Lame insults to Faith in God.

Soul