The "Bible Code"

reply to post by SickeningTruths

Hi Sickening

You Wrote: QUOTE

"...for those who do not know what "The Bible Code" is ...it ONLY refers to the Hebrew Bible, The Torah. It's said that the Secrets of life are within those Texts written in Hebrew..."

UNQUOTE

Couple of facts. The Dead Sea Scrolls began to come to light in November of 1946 (Caves 1-11, hidden away in June of 68 CE during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome) although Bedouin in the area were saying for at least 10 years before that they uncovered caves near Qumran with scrolls with writing on them.

Many of the texts that were found were books not eventually voted into the 'Hebrew Bible' by the Rebbes who met at Javneh (=Jamnia) near Caesarea in Palestine to do just that i.e. AFTER Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Romans in 70 CE and there was no more Temple to offer goats, lambs and bulls to YHWH.

Prior to 90 CE there was no strict set of Hebrew scriptures, although the Torah (1st 5 books of the Hebrew Bible, i.e. Genesis, Exodus, Leveticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) seems to have been the first to be settled into more or less final form c. 105 BCE.

Many of the texts found in Caves 1-11 also are of pre 100 BCE copies of those books that WERE later voted in by the Javneh Rebbes and there are a number of copies of the Torah in paleoHebrew and also in the later Aramaic sqaure Hebrew letters most are familiar with today, brought back from babylon by Ezra c. 450 BCE.

The pre100 BCE copies of the unpointed paleoHebrew of the TORAH do NOT match the later copies of the Torah, especially the late late late Masoretic pointed (vowelled) version. In fact there were five or six vrsions of the consonantal text of the Torah (differing - if you count consonant by consonant / letter by letter - by as much as 18% !!) from each other.

So since the later Masoretic Text (c. 960 AD from Leningrad) represents ONLY ONE of the five or so vrsions of the torah (one of them is called the Sammaritan Pentateuch, which differs from the Masoretic nearly 19% of the time counting letter i.e. letter and consonant for consonant !), how on earth can ANYONE claim they see a code in the text which is not even fixed letter for letter?

Codes (especially literal-numerical ones) are very sensitive things - and are thrown off greatly even if ONE SINGLE letter is different.

If one compares the Hebrew undertext (Vorlage) used by the Greek translator Symmachus (c. 140 CE) with the Masoretic text for the TORAH only, the differences letter for letter between them amount to approximately 15.5% - If one compares the Hebrew undertext (Vorlage) used by the Greek translator Aquilla (c. 120 CE) with the later Massoretic Text for the TORAH, the differences letter for letter between them amount to approximately 14.3% - If one compares one compares the Hebrew undertext (Vorlage) used by the Greek translator Theodotion (c. 150 CE) with the later Massoretic text for the TORAH, the differences letter for letter between them amount to approximately 17.9%; if one compares one compares the Hebrew undertext (Vorlage) used by the Greek translators for the LXX Septuaginta Greek OT for the Torah c. 250 CE) with the later Massoretic text for the TORAH, the differences letter for letter between them amount to approximately 20.4% i.e. if you count every letter and compare them consonant for consonant...which is the basis for any alleged CODE.

The Dead Sea Scroll copies of the Torah (mainly large fragments) clearly show at least 4 versions of the Torah lying side by side in the caves - besides the consonantal text of the Sammaritan version of the Torah (c. 400 BCE) the older Hebrew consonantal underlays (Vorlagen) that were later used by Aquilla and Symmachus and Theodotion were also found.

So....long story short...since there were at least FIVE different text versions (i.e. consonantal sets of copies) of the TORAH prior to Javneh (ce 90, when only ONE version was decided upon among so many versions in circuclation at the time, i.e. the Babylonian Text Family which later became the Masoretic text) there is NO WAY IN HELL that you can EVER come up with a meaningful CODE from the TORAH - there is NO SINGLE CONSONANTAL TEXT VERSION of the Torah - only several versions - which is one of the reasons why the Rebbes and the Priests and the Ministers DID NOT WANT the Dead Sea Scroll versions of the bible copies to be published - but, alas...now we have the Internet....so, too bad for them !!!

Either way, No Coherent Text, ergo...No Coherent Code....FULL STOP.

reply to post by SickeningTruths


You have to use original text, yes? Any translations will destroy the original structure.

reply to post by swan001

Swan

The issue naturally is there IS no ORIGINAL text for the Hebrew Torah in existence to-day - read the post immediately above yours. The Torah is a mangled hotchpotch originally penned after the Exile from a bunch of protoTorahs in paleo Hebrew and copied out later in square Aramaic letters (under the auspices of Ezra. c. 420 BCE) where much of the older traditions were conflated and changed - in other words destroyed.

So no ORIGINAL SINGLE TEXT - ergo...no CODE.

Make sense?

reply to post by Sigismundus


No.


You see, randomly written text can't morph into new text when equidistance letter calculations are used. Your theory holds, but don't explain this phenomenon.

Peace and freedom.

John Swan.

reply to post by swan001


Hebrew wasn't a language even at the time of Moses. It was a considerable time later. There was no language to have the codes with, and when later on there was, and interpretations were needed past the writers time period, there were no vowels, so up to 70 different meanings could be determined for a lot of these words, depending on which vowels you use, except for default which tended to come from older languages, or Sumar.

reply to post by swan001

Hi Swan

You wrote:

QUOTE

"No. You see, randomly written text can't morph into new text when equidistance letter calculations are used. Your theory holds, but don't explain this phenomenon."

UNQUOTE

What are you trying to say exactly? What you have written above is epistemologically incoherent.

We are NOT talking about any Randomly Written Text. We are talking about the fact that the Benei Yisro'el before the Romans ground Jerusalem to powder in 70 CE had NO SET OFFICIAL UNCHANGING CONSONANTAL TORAH TEXT with which to work (proof of this is the Dead Sea Scrolls Corpus from Caves 1-11, with fragments dated from 300 BCE to 68 CE)

We'd be singing a different tune if the consonantal text of the Torah had been etched in stone on a pillar before the Babylonian Capitivity (c. 587 - 531 BCE) - but such is not the case. The CONSONTNANTAL text of the Torah was not fixed in any recogniseable form until c. 100 BCE, and several versions existed and circulated in antiquity side by side, differing from one another counting consonant by consonant by as much as 19%.

So....to what exact Consonantal Hebrew Torah text are you referring when you speak about Equidistant Letter Calculations?

Without a SINGLE Consonantal Hebrew Torah Text from which to work, you cannot work out any Equidistance of anything.

Clear as mud?

Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by SickeningTruths

Hi Sickening

You Wrote: QUOTE

"...for those who do not know what "The Bible Code" is ...it ONLY refers to the Hebrew Bible, The Torah. It's said that the Secrets of life are within those Texts written in Hebrew..."

UNQUOTE

Originally posted by SickeningTruths
( Please do not Bash ) Every one is welcome to post there ideas, prospective, and beliefs.

(and this is just as I understand it, not to be quoted)

Forgive me.. until this site, I had no idea the code worked with other "biblical" text. Great posts by the way people.. I have LOTS to read!

reply to post by SickeningTruths

The Idea is, (for example) if you took the first letter of every word, or every paragraph or whatever, at the end of the book you will have a hidden message. i guess? i dunno..

Not exactly. Basically it works (supposedly) through equidistant letter skipping - this means you'll start at one letter, skip...8 letters, for example, and then another 8, another 8, etc. to get words that are hidden in the surface test.

They'll take the original hebrew - I would assume the masoretic text - and lay it out in a grid, say 100 characters arranges 10X10. Computer programs will search the selected text for target words the researchers are looking for (think like a crossword puzzle) spaced out over various distances like my 8-letter skip example above.

The same text can also be rehashed for additional searches by changing the grid layout - reorganize the 100 characters into a 20X5 grid, for example (or 25X4, and so on) for other results to be found.

There's been all sorts of debates over the validity of this, with some researchers saying you can do the same thing with any other text - but I'd figure it would be fairly easy to either validate it or shut the book on it altogether with pretty simple statistical comparisons, in that case. And since the debate goes on, I'd ASSUME they haven't been able to disprove it outright - but it's been a LONG time since I've looked into the bible codes. Anything found seems to be judged more statistically significant if the grouping of the various words is tight (as well as the number of related words in it) as compared to being spread out over LONG skips.

It IS definitely interesting the Michael Drosnin, author of some books on this as others have mentioned, did actually try to warn Israeli prime minister (I believe) Yitzhak Rabin about an assassination attempt prior to him actually being assassinated due to finding a related grid in the code.

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
You seem to be thinking about the Chronicle Project here (search ATS for the thread), but I wasn't too impressed with it. Even the translations that they put out didn't seem to alter the story much at all, primarily it just seemed to change some of the terms...which were kind of already there in the hebrew and common fodder for ancient alien theorists as well as myself. Will need to check back into this for any more recent updates.

reply to post by zachi
I could be wrong on this, but I don't think I'd trust any results found in english translations given the peculiarities of hebrew and issue with possible losses in translation?

reply to post by Sigismundus
Hmmm. Thanks for this, I will definitely have to look further into it as I wasn't aware. May post back to you on this after looking into it. Do you happen to know offhand what the masoretes used as their source material, as I know they guarded the transmission and transcription very carefully after that?

Also, claim of no original source text available being considered, this would seem to tie back well into easy confirmation or denial one way or the other by solid and consistent cross-checks against a range of other texts. Perhaps ALL the disagreeing source of the hebrew scriptures are valid and encode separate information? Otherwise, I can't see this debate having gone on this long if any text will replicate the same results (which seem to have been validated at least as regards the hebrew scriptures themselves).

reply to post by Unity_99

Hebrew wasn't a language even at the time of Moses

I won't argue currently as I've never looked into this previously, but among others, Robert Clayton and Charles Forster allegedly identified inscriptions in Sinai as being a mix of hebrew (possible paleohebrew?) and egyptian characters. Are you able to address these claims?

I think that's all I've got for now on this thread. The bible code is definitely a neat claim, if nothing else. Take care, all.

Originally posted by HelionPrime
The simple structure of the Hebrew language lends itself perfectly to the brazen scam known as the 'Bible Code'; where one may re-enact Genesis & create something out of nothing.





The video above talks about the encoding of the Torah in Isiah 53 , first this chapter is a prophetic chapter with numerous verses speaking of the coming of Jesus . The way the chapter is encoded with the names of every decipel of Jesus , and numerous others that were at the cruxsifiction is and can only be by God placing it there seven hundred years before the event happened. There is zero chance it is a coincidence.

Azadok

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Praetorius


I have a thread on Mauro Biglino's translations, literal, and what is said about the Hebrew langauge, and that most historians know there is no proof of hebrew until not that long before Christ, even speculating on the languages spoke at the time. Also, he was credentialed on the thread, for the work he did. He really is who he says he is and did what he said he did, and when you refer to something relating to a combination of Hebrew and Egyptian, one must realize, Is Ra El does have an Egyptian to Sumar basis, and that what the are calling Hebrew is most likely they language that they spoke before they developed Hebrew. They probably spoke some form of Amorite and then Aramaic before Hebrew.

reply to post by Unity_99
Ah, that does make sense given the ridiculous amount of interplay between the languages from back then over there. Will have to do some looking on what you've provided here and may bounce back in on this again, as time permits.

Thanks much, friend.

Here is a riddle for you all to crack.....

What did the ancient Hebrews call volcanoes? Given they meandered around the Great Rift, where two continents are pulling apart (possibly in sudden spurts as scientists are just starting to consider), they must surely have come across them from time to time over the thousands of years the Bible covers.

So, code breakers, tell me the word.

ohmyvolcano.blogspot.com...


A clue for those who are stuggling......stand back, then stand back a bit further.....then keep going further back than you've ever gone and you might see the fuller and clearer picture.

reply to post by TheFogHorn


ׁשַעַּגרַה

What a stupid website. The "Mountain of God" spoken of in the Bible is already known. Jabal al Lawz in Saudi Arabia and it's not a volcano. Also, that's some magical volcano to appear as a cloud by day and pilar of fire by night for FORTY YEARS in the wilderness.

reply to post by Praetorius

I could be wrong on this, but I don't think I'd trust any results found in english translations given the peculiarities of hebrew and issue with possible losses in translation?

You need the orginals or the original language. God can give it to any one in any language He prefers and it will still be His words, exactly as He wants them. He just used the translator the same way He used the original men He spoke to.
And why would you think that finding my name and the name of my husband and children would be unreliable? It is what it is. I check in Moby Dick and it isn't in there.

reply to post by zachi
I'm inclined to agree on all counts, and the conclusion.

As I mentioned previously in response to another poster, though, if there are different or "actual" other originals, it does call the matter into question.

Then again, this is why I mentioned...ugh...'alternate originals'...all of which might perhaps be authentic, according to the plan (mysterious ways?). As well as appealing to the actual results.

My intent is by no means to doubt what you've provided here, just to add to it. As I said, I've not looked into this in a long time, and I do definitely believe he works in mysterious ways. If the results are there, and not equally verified in control groups, then it seems like we're on the right path.

Be blessed.

I believe you can find similar codes in Tolstoy's War and Peace when translated into Hebrew, and also the English version of Moby Dick.

I don't put much stock in the Bible code to be honest.

eta:
I found the links

Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick

Data mining for God

Originally posted by Argyll
I believe you can find similar codes in Tolstoy's War and Peace when translated into Hebrew, and also the English version of Moby Dick.

I don't put much stock in the Bible code to be honest.

That's been the usual comparison, although the few examples I've seen (from War and Peace, I believe), seem to not have been from full sections of text, but instead from cut segments to make it fit. Granted, this may have just been screenshot cropping.

As I've said before in the thread, it seems if that's the case, it should have long-since laid the matter to rest. You don't by chance happen to have any current sources or personal input on this beyond what you've provided, do you?

I don't really have a horse in the race...I'd LIKE to believe the in the bible codes for a few reasons, but given facts I'll gladly go either way. Please tell me you've got something solid here and can link us so I'll not have to go dig through the various he-said/she-said on teh interwebs?

The Rabin example is impressive, but I think the stopped clock analogy may apply well there, even if it's not a good example.

reply to post by Praetorius


To be honest mate, the first link I provided does it for me, Drosnin challenged anyone to find a message relating to the assassination of a Prime minister in the novel Moby Dick, Brendan McKay found 10 such significant events using the same techniques that Drosnin used.

Case closed for me.

reply to post by Argyll
Fair enough, and thanks Argyll - by chance, do you happen to have a link to that so I don't have to try to remember to dig up when I clear my head a bit?

I think I vaguely remember seeing something about this MANY years back (for my shortish life) and recall some quibbling on the matter. And admittedly, while it may have been Drosnin's personal challenge, something a bit more mathematically sound might be called for (not doubting what you've referenced here outright, just saying there may be limitations to the validity on both sides, regardless of how neat the Rabin example being found ahead of time was - it shouldn't discount proper anomalies that can't be accounted for otherwise).

Thanks in advance, and if you don't have sources I will definitely try to remember to get back to this afterword and follow up later anyway.

Much obliged and have a blessed night.

Originally posted by Argyll
I believe you can find similar codes in Tolstoy's War and Peace when translated into Hebrew, and also the English version of Moby Dick.

I don't put much stock in the Bible code to be honest.

eta:
I found the links

Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick

Data mining for God

edit on 7/6/2012 by Argyll because: (no reason given)

That's not what is remarkable about the ELS codes. What makes them remarkable is the fact they are clustered arou.d the plain-text verses. Or the amazing codes found in the 12 verses of Isaiah 53.