Freemasons linked to u.k murder?

Originally posted by PublicGadfly


Scream all you want- what is on the web is on the web.

Next you're going to claim the BBC is biased against masons?

Exactly. That's why most of it is GARBAGE. The web has NO STANDARDS. ANYONE can post ANYTHING for ANY PURPOSE and claim it to be true. It's frightening.

As for your ellisctaylor "masonic link"? More garbage. Look at the first page - the opening page of the website. See what I mean? GARBAGE. Occult? Paranormal? A whole lotta BS.

Folks, when you want FACTS, please stay away from "paranormal" and "occult" sites. LOL . . . I'm shocked that this needs to be explained.

Originally posted by LTD602
Folks, when you want FACTS, please stay away from "paranormal" and "occult" sites. LOL . . . I'm shocked that this needs to be explained.

EXACTLY-

mason=occult , whoops kind of tripped up on that one , huh?

All the mysticism stuff is nothing more than dressed up occultism, isn't it?
'paranormal'? Like masons don't slip in little 'alchemy' statements from time to time.

I'm seeing a tiny bit of light down that dark tunnel.

No. Fremasonry is not an occult, paranormal practice. Alot of pseudo-educated people tend to shove Masonry under the "occult" heading, however. This is not due to proof of any kind, but due to prejudice, ignorance, and a general hatred of people who might be feeling better and/or doing better than themselves.

If you look for the credentials of people who do this sort of thing . . . . . you won't find any.

Everyone who has an axe to grind has found a home on the Internet.

Leveller, thank you for coming to my defense. I simply cut and pasted Gadfly's post. All I changed was the word "mason" to the word "Buddhist" to illustrate the absurdity of his argument. If he changed his links in an attempt to discredit me, it speaks to his intellectual dishonesty and shows what he will do when cornered.

As to the word occult, here is the defintion:


occult

adj 1: hidden and difficult to see; "an occult fracture"; "occult blood in the stool" 2: having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding; "mysterious symbols"; "the mystical style of Blake"; "occult lore"; "the secret learning of the ancients" [syn: mysterious, mystic, mystical, secret, orphic] n 1: supernatural forces and events and beings collectively; "She doesn't believe in the supernatural" [syn: supernatural] 2: occult practices and techniques; "he is a student of the occult" [syn: occult arts] v 1: cause an eclipse of (a celestial body) by intervention; "The Sun eclipses the moon today"; "Planets and stars often are occulted by other celestial bodies" [syn: eclipse] 2: become concealed or hidden from view or have its light extinguished; "The beam of light occults every so often" 3: hide from view; "The lids were occulting her eyes"


Source: WordNet � 2.0, � 2003 Princeton University


In terms of occult as, "being hidden or difficult to see," the Apostle Paul says of Christianity and non-believers:


"11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Cor. 2:11 - 14).


One could argue, based on Paul's own words, that Christianity is occult because it is hidden or difficult to see unless the Spirit of God reveals it to a person.

The word "occult" is used by reactive religious fundamentalists in an attempt to dismiss as evil that which they do not understand and deem evil because it does not fit into their ignorant religious bias.

Perhaps Gadlfly and bluemeanies post here at ATS as espionage agents for religious fundamentalism. It is clear that they are not interested in truth, but rather in lies and use intellectual dishonesty and cheap smears in an attempt to forward their hidden agenda.

Please, bluemeanie and Gadlfy, tell us you agenda. I am interested in knowing what you are really seeking to accomplish with your cheap hit and run tactics against masonry. Are you both Christians? Come clean with us, we have a right to know -- especially as you both claim to be commited to the truth.

So tell us the truth about who you are and what your agenda is.

Me? I am a Mason and my purpose on this thread is to defend Masonry from your lies. So now it is your turn to state your purpose. If you cannot, perhaps you should skulk away and look for some lesser internet site to peddle your baseless bigotry.

I simply asked for opinions and for people to shed some light on the topic - i admit it is sensitive subject matter and apologize for upsetting all you illuminated ones....go pick on the guys who are anti masons will ya!

Originally posted by bluemeanie
I simply asked for opinions and for people to shed some light on the topic - i admit it is sensitive subject matter and apologize for upsetting all you illuminated ones....go pick on the guys who are anti masons will ya!

Don't sweat the masons-
occultism, neo-secrets, mysticism, elitism- a lot of 'ism' in masonism

From cut-and-paste specialists to deliberate thread hijacking they try it all.

You were right and instead of being adults about it they resort to 'frat-attacks'


dx try harder- your rant doesn't fly

YOU are the one that misquoted, not I.

Lev did you even look at the "gadfly liar" page?

A guy being charged "as a gadlfy" calls a judge a liar! H-E-L-l- o

Try again, a little mason stuff 47,000 hits!!!

That means no insults or personal attacks on individual members or groups of members. Rational points, with evidence/argument and calm discussion, or locked threads and warnings

Keep it clean gentlemen..please.

m.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Lev did you even look at the "gadfly liar" page?

Nah. I have to admit that I didn't.
When I saw your name, I realised that anything connected with it would be drivel.

Gadfy, the Masons aren't here to ruin threads, spread mischief, or screw around for their personal amusement. They are defending themselves. Some people (more than their should be), even when posting otherwise innocous questions and/or assertions, word them in the form of accusations or subtle condmenations.

So, it also comes down to a lack of writing/communication skills with some people . . . not all, certainly, but some. Alot depends not on what is said, but how it is delivered.

When the mods see that enough is enough, they step in, and so they should. If I'm out of line, I expect to be told by the mods.

Anyway, on to the topic:

I'm of the mind that EVEN IF connections can be drawn betwen such and such murder or crime and a Mason or Masons, then still, I really am not convinced of any problem. Alot more murders are committed by people who are not Masons. The very fact that you CAN find a specific charge made by someone proves how rare it is for Masons to be connected in any way to violent crime. So, the exception proves the rule.

[edit on 5-10-2004 by LTD602]

Fascinating the 2 on 1~3 on 1. Gadfly simply posted some facts about a little girl that was killed and the msonic symbolism involved. Simple. If Freemasonry is not bad or evil and theres nothing to hide, why the secrecy?

It all looks harmless to me


www.phoenixmasonry.org...



About the silliest phallic symbol Ive seen
www.phoenixmasonry.org...



I have seen this somewheres before...now let me think here for a second.............ahhhh yes, now I remember. 27 BC- AD 312. A time of decadence, debauchery,killing,Just(us) for all and pedophile lust with a twist of violence thrown in for kicks and effect.
campus.northpark.edu...

Oh my, Serpent coins 1 point down 2 points up....real power there.


raise it a notch on both sides and ya got(23) a W for "We" not you but "We"...i incourage ya to get out there and vote Nov2nd...Mexico celebrates the,,,you know what. (www.google.co) type in Mexico Nov2nd celebration www.public.iastate.edu...
Dont get to freaking out now,,,,Its just truth. I cant help it you guys are so symbolic and surround dates and time around darkness.




Oh my,,,,I didnt know angels had cloven goat hoofs? Mercy sakes alive
beds-freemasonry.org.uk...



MASONIC PENALTY SIGN
"Made from the due-guard by dropping the left hand carelessly; at the same time raise the right arm and draw the hand, still open, across the throat, thumb next [to] the throat, and drop the hand perpendicular by the side."
MASONIC OATH
"... binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots ..."
"Throat cutting"???? Tongue torn out???

Now you guys arent beheading folks in Iraq are ya? Its all sounding familiar and very Roman/Greek/Assyrian like. Very fasinating stuff, the middle eastern connection to freemasonry.
















Its all in good fun.....right?
www.bsgmasonic.com...



after all, guess who gets to have the last ride?? St John of course.

Masonry DOES have things to hide. Masonry DOES have "mysteries." Says so on the application.

The PROBLEM however is this: people equate "secrets" with "evil." It's quite frankly, a dumb thing to do.

Gadlfy was not attacked. His "sources" were discredited.

The kind of silly sarcasm and insulting tone of YOUR post, however, leaves you even more open as Gadfly. The best that the anti-masons can do is SNEER at Masons and Masonic rituals by imposing THEIR OWN interpretation on whatever pictures, links, and ephemera they can find around the net.

Carry on, if you like, however. Your behavious is completely up to you. Just don't be so shocked when you're called out on it.








[edit on 5-10-2004 by LTD602]

Im bowing down Supreme Commander LTD602

Originally posted by project_pisces
Im bowing down Supreme Commander LTD602

Well that sarcasm is hardly needed. Topic please.

Actually, the only recent murder charge that I've heard of (that's in connection to Masons) wasn't even a murder charge. It was manslaughter and involved an accident at a Lodge. That Lodge was 'disbanded", I believe, and the appropriate steps were taken.

muppet, I have to disagree with you.

This is a conspiracy forum-

It is also a 'deny ignorance' forum.

When people in the 21st century still ride goats, dress like clowns, worship strange symbols and continually claim they are justified in having �secrets�(of an arcane nature) it is way past time to just say bunk

I don't care that the masons have 'special' signs to hail each other. I care that they (masons) cry there is nothing sinister in their signage yet when proof that some use of this same signage is present for sinister motives they (masons) then cry FOUL.

What is the title to this thread?
Freemans linked to U.K. MURDER

That pretty much SHOULD be what the thread is about. Where does Google searches for �gadfly liar� equate to masons and murder in the U.K.?

Where does LTD's spurious collegiate renditions of word meaning fit into the topic?

I don't see the dots connecting!

Pisces, on the other hand linked in some rather appropriate masonic symbolism. The goat rider is fitting. Masonry is symbolism, occultism is symbolism. Let's face up to reality guys.

Masonry and the occult go hand in hand and masonry intends it to be so.
Why deny what is physical?

This symbolism ties in exactly, EXACTLY with the thread topic.

A very young girl is supposed to have painted masonic symbols prior to being murdered? Is masonic symbolism causal?

When Gadfly or anyone else can produce a police report, or a detectives brief in which the painting is linked FORMALLY to whatever murder, then I will discuss the topic.

As for Masons riding goats? It's for sh*ts and giggles, people. It's humour. I've heard Masons at the Lodge joke about "goat fur" and "the alien" they keep in the Lodge closet all the time. They're making fun of anti-masons and the unfounded claims they make. Something I do quite often, actually.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
muppet, I have to disagree with you.

This is a conspiracy forum-

It is also a 'deny ignorance' forum.

This is why we spend time answering you... to deny ignorance... the ignorance you are displaying. Stop whining about the mods and everyone ganging up on you, stick with facts for a change and no one will gang up on you.

Oh, and stay on topic.

When people in the 21st century still ride goats, dress like clowns, worship strange symbols and continually claim they are justified in having �secrets�(of an arcane nature) it is way past time to just say bunk

IN YOUR OPINION. Which, as you have shown, is an underinformed, highly critical, pseudo intellectual opinion, but one you are entitled to... which means it should not surprise you when educated people with intelligent and well thought out opinions and facts at hand contradict you...

I don't care that the masons have 'special' signs to hail each other. I care that they (masons) cry there is nothing sinister in their signage yet when proof that some use of this same signage is present for sinister motives they (masons) then cry FOUL.

But, you have not provided proof of ANYTHING... if you at least provided a shred of factual information you might have an intellectual leg to stand on here in your claim, but since you haven't and you don't...

What is the title to this thread?
Freemans linked to U.K. MURDER

Yep, that was the TITLE... the answer is: NO, or, more accurately, only in the minds of those ignorant of the facts.

You see gadfly, ol chum, the one salient thing that you come to this table missing is FACTS. Innuendo, half truths, outright lies, ignorance are NOT intellectual assets, and coming here, to a forum designed to deny ignorance, unarmed but for these only serves to support the claims of the masons... next time, come armed with facts, or stay home. DENY IGNORANCE is not just a slogan.

That pretty much SHOULD be what the thread is about. Where does Google searches for �gadfly liar� equate to masons and murder in the U.K.?

It doesn't, any more than "mason crap" relates to anything, which is something YOU posted earlies.

Where does LTD602's spurious collegiate renditions of word meaning fit into the topic?

I don't see the dots connecting!

Then uncross your eyes and try looking at the facts... take off those blinders and join the rest of us in denying ignorance instead of trying to promulgate it. You claim to be a writer and researcher... then DO THAT. Try looking at the facts, eschew wishful thinking and empty opinions, and LOOK AT THE FACTS.

No one cares if you think masonry is silly... no one cares if you think it is outdated... those are your opinions, and 5 million good men alive today disagree with you, and hundreds of millions over the past several hundred years ALSO disagree with you, but hey, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how SILLY WE THINK IT IS...

Pisces, on the other hand linked in some rather appropriate masonic symbolism. The goat rider is fitting. Masonry is symbolism, occultism is symbolism. Let's face up to reality guys.

Actually, that is masons making fun of the folks that poke fun at us... nothing in masonry has anything to do with goats, except making fun of the folks that think it does, and we do like to have a bit of fun... nothing in the masonic teachings says that we have to be a bunch of dour old sourpusses, casting aspersions all day long, or at all. We have fun, and part of that fun is laughing at masonic critics that can't even get it together.... like certain folks on this forum who shall go nameless....

Masonry and the occult go hand in hand and masonry intends it to be so. Why deny what is physical?

This symbolism ties in exactly, EXACTLY with the thread topic.

Really? then you need to make it clearer, because, once more, armed with a load of hot air and unfounded opinions, you have once more approached the table of folks interested in denying ignorance with naught but an armload of ignorance at your command.

A very young girl is supposed to have painted masonic symbols prior to being murdered? Is masonic symbolism causal?

Uh, yup... without proof, you bet. Its like this, all heroin users drank milk as children, therefore milk drinking leads to heroin use... you need better causality than you have provided as masonic symbols, as we have previously noted, are EVERYWHERE in society, from the square, level, plumb, to the beehive, etc. And some symbols that YOU claim to be masonic, like the pyramid and the eye are not even masonic symbols, as we have amply demonstrated time and again.

You must do better than innuendo and casual slander against a group that does so much good in the world, or leave yourself open to looking the fool...

Masons dressing up as clowns? I believe the Shriners do that. Aside from their famously fun get-togethers, they also help children. Some people call it propaganda. Any propaganda that includes helping others live a better, healthier life is FINE in my book.

You'd be hard-pressed to name me one other organization that has built hospitals in order to provide FREE medical care for children, with state-of-the-art equipment, including entertainment to cheer up the kids.

Pretty good "propaganda" if you ask me. If only the government can spin some of that good propaganda.

Worshipping 'strange symbols"? I'm sure the Buddhist representation of the Wheel of the Dharma miht be strange to some, but it is just as legitimate for those who find meaning in it, as any other symbol. The Christian cross? Muslims might wonder about that. Hindus would find it strange that Christ - a supposedly divine being (only "half-divine", however that is accomplished . . where's the other half?), could be killed by mortals. Jsut another point of view, that's all. And the list goes on. The holy cup of "Christ's blood", the host, the robes . . .all symbols that some (not necessarily YOU) might find strange.

Back on topic:

I have seen only allegations when it comes to this UK murder. I'd like to see a police report, or a detective's brief/report that postulates a causal relationship between Masonry and the little girl's death.

I hope people have noticed that the girl drew that picture BEFORE her death, obvsiouly. That in itself suggests no causal relationship. Had she been raped or molested and drawn it AFTER the fact, then you might have a case. Right now, it's just another drawing. There is no relationship suggested between the drawing and her death.


[edit on 6-10-2004 by LTD602]

So what is that Ark which the 2 'angels' wings are covering in the picture??

Why the goat hoves?

I'm kinda finding hard to get my head around, why would they kill a
little girl because of something she painted?

Kinda weird theory.

I can't see this pic giving away any hidden secrets, I mean everyone knows
about the black and white squares.
A naked man in an apron?

I mean you can find worse diatribe about the the Freemasons in books
and on the net.
Interesting theory I guess, but really stretching it IMO.