The 7E7; Airbus bites back

I have just returned from a shopping trip in town where I copped a sneaky read of this weeks Flight International at the local WHSmith

In this issue Airbus has announced that it is to launch the A350, an A330 class rival to the Boeing 7E7. I don't know too much about the project yet but it said something along the lines of it being A330 based and incorporating 7E7 technology, whatever that means. Just thought it was worth a mention.

Originally posted by waynos
In this issue Airbus has announced that it is to launch the A350, an A330 class rival to the Boeing 7E7. I don't know too much about the project yet but it said something along the lines of it being A330 based and incorporating 7E7 technology, whatever that means. Just thought it was worth a mention.

Hmm, we will see Boeing was smart in that the engines for the 7E7 are not easily adaptable to another plane. The big question is: How much int he way of cleary unfair launch aid and loans will the EU provide Airbus to persue the project? It must be very nice to not have to worry about R&D and other costs and only have to repay the loans after you have sold 30-40%

Originally posted by waynos
I have just returned from a shopping trip in town where I copped a sneaky read of this weeks Flight International at the local WHSmith

In this issue Airbus has announced that it is to launch the A350, an A330 class rival to the Boeing 7E7. I don't know too much about the project yet but it said something along the lines of it being A330 based and incorporating 7E7 technology, whatever that means. Just thought it was worth a mention.

The A350 is a 270 seat aircraft based on the A330, powered by Royles-Royce Trent engines similiar to those being developed for the 7E7, and incorporating A380 developments. The aircraft hasnt officially been announced, but quite a few top execs of Airbus have been speaking freely about the project. Airbus is flying 300 top aviation journalists to its headquarters ina couple of weeks to officially annoujnce the project.

The A350 is to be larger than the 7E7, while being less efficient (due to increased size) but have better performance, and it will also be significantly cheaper than the 7E7 due to being based on an existing airframe.

This move has been predicted for sometime now, ever since Boeing announced the 7E7 project, with analysts saying Airbus would produce a rival aircraft based on the A330-300 series.

Check out the following links for news:

business-times.asia1.com.sg... story/0,4574,130402-1096487940,00.html
yahoo.reuters.com... eQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh30443_2004-09-30_06-14-16_l30271047_newsml

Various sources are stating that it will take as little as $2billion USD to update the A330 airframe to compete with the 7E7. This announcement comes at a time when the US administration is complaining to the WTO over 'illegal subsidies' that it purportes Airbus has received.

Under a 1992 agreement, governmental subsidies are illegal, tho under the agreement loans are not. Airbus has received $6billion in loans from the EU under this agreement, to be paid back by 2008. The US is claiming that due to the length of these loans (6 years), they are actually subsidies, and thus illegal. Boeing currently receives �1.2billion a year in US government retainer payments, which are also illegal under the agreement.

Thanks for that Richard, that ties in with what I read. Fred, when you say the engines aren't easily adaptable to other types, why is that? I would have thought that the Rolls Royce Trent, and whatever other engine is available, will work on anything, surely it is in the engine manufacturers interest not to limit their market and have to rely on the success of a single model?

Boeing currently receives �1.2billion a year in US government retainer payments, which are also illegal under the agreement.

Funny how all those who whinge on about Airbus don't think this relevant

Originally posted by waynos
Thanks for that Richard, that ties in with what I read. Fred, when you say the engines aren't easily adaptable to other types, why is that?

Im just repeating what I read a while back in an AWST article. Something about how they are mounted or the pylon design. The article did not go into specifics. The engine manufacturers will play ball due to the high volume anticpated to the 7E7. I do have a link to this story, but it is avalible in print editions.

This is a relevant responce from Airbus. People are not that torqued over it because most expected some responce. Interesting that it has more seats and not as efficient. Thats the biggest selling point on the 7E7.

Are you saying that its a secret, super efficient pylon design? The pylons will most likely be the responsibilty of whoever is making the wings (I don't know offhand which company but they are from Japan) though of course Boeing could make them and attach them when the wings arrive. The engines will presumably hang on anything though the pylon design should be easy to replicate once seen up close. The trouble with making a massive advance in airliner design (which Boeing clearly believes the 7E7 will be) is that you cannot keep it to yourself for long as it goes into the public domain instantly, if not, you have failed to sell any.

The engines destined for the 7E7 are the standard offerings from GE and Royles-Royce. GE will supply the GENX and Royles-Royce will supply the Trent 1000 models. Neither engine is developed by Boeing, so both engines will be available to whoever wants to buy them, so its quite possible you might see the same engines on the A350. Both engine models are evolutionary developments of existing models.

Source

The major enhancement in the 7E7 is that the plane is fully electric. Normally, the engines are started using a third standby non turbine engine housed in the planes body, while the 7E7 will use a new electric starter system in the engine itself. Also the pnuematic pressure for hydraulics etc is normally taken off the engines exhaust, reducing the efficiency of the engine. The 7E7 uses electric pumps to do the same.

Conversely, Boeing is looking at the 7E7 being somewhat less of a success than it hoped. The manufacturer required 200 firm and committed orders by the end of 2004 to produce the aircraft based on the predicted costs. Infact, to date, it has only received 52 firm orders, with several airlines already backing out of incomplete orders.

The list price for a 7E7 is slated to be $120million, whereas the list price for a A330-300 (the model taken as the base for the A350) is $90million. Analisysts recon that an update to the A330-300 to make it the A350 will cost on average around $5 - $10 million USD for each aircraft body off the production line.

RichardPrice
Infact, to date, it has only received 52 firm orders

Does "firm" mean plane orders or bussiness/company order?

I remember a few months back that Boeing had one company that wanted 50 planes, and thats just one. So if your "52" number is planes then is incorrect.

Originally posted by Murcielago

RichardPrice
Infact, to date, it has only received 52 firm orders

Does "firm" mean plane orders or bussiness/company order?

I remember a few months back that Boeing had one company that wanted 50 planes, and thats just one. So if your "52" number is planes then is incorrect.

Planes. Quote:

"We presented it just five months ago -- and today there are 52 orders in our books. We have down payments for up to 200 more." Stonecipher told Germany's Stern magazine.

The 7E7 concept was made off the back of a single airline requesting such an aircraft, and as such 50 of those orders are all from All Nippon Airways Co. with the remaining two coming from an airline whoes name eludes me. The downpayments are not counted because they do nothing to reduce the cost of the aircraft, and are not binding order agreements.

Another couple of choice quotes:

"I'd be shocked to see another 50-plane order in the near-term horizon," John Feren, vice president of sales for Boeing's 7E7, said in an interview in Ottawa during the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada annual meeting.

and

Boeing is talking with about 20 airlines regarding orders and Feren said he would be disappointed if none were completed before the end of this year. He said he expects that the company will have at least 100 orders by the end of 2005.

Source


Also interesting to note is that this is Boeings first all new design since 1989, so its going to be interesting to see how a new set of designers handle it. In the same timeframe, Airbus has launched the A330 and the A340.

The US is claiming that due to the length of these loans (6 years), they are actually subsidies, and thus illegal.
Boeing currently receives �1.2billion a year in US government retainer payments, which are also illegal under the agreement.

- Yeah, interesting that Airbus actually repays it's loans rather than depend on Gov retainers and soft defence contracts (which are never repaid).....no wonder Americans prefer not to talk about how come the WTO keeps telling them to quit bitching and either come up with a sustainable case or get lost (no sign of a single sustaionable case yet!).

Rather than soiling themselves and weeping buckets you'd think that it might actually dawn on these guys that they've had an excellent run (40yrs+) dominating the transportation market but that like all things in life things change and maybe it's going to be Airbus that dominates the market for sometime now.

Whatever; and this (sadly becoming all too typical) sour-grapes American response to not always being the dominant producer is frankly getting a tad embarrassing and tiresome.

Grow up is the pertinent phrase I think. (.....and consider yourselves lucky that European manufacturers/governments have never pulled the kind of crap US have repeatedly on the old individual euro national manufacturers/countries......wouldn't you agree, er, friends, huh?)




Oh and by the way......my money's on the A350 putting in some very stiff competition to the Boeing.....maybe even out-selling it by end 05 (what with our proven fresh tech and excellent sales packages)?

The big question is: How much int he way of cleary unfair launch aid and loans will the EU provide Airbus to persue the project? It must be very nice to not have to worry about R&D and other costs and only have to repay the loans after you have sold 30-40%


YOU NAILED IT ON THE HEAD M8!