What exactly DO we want?

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posted on Jun, 7 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by frazzle

No no no, never apologise. I wouldn't have gone looking for other examples if not for yours. Just because we're coming at this discussion from different view points doesn't mean apologies are ever necessary, how can people ever reach consensus, or at least mutual understanding if they don't talk about those differences?

You speak of bonus offers and my mind immediately pops over to the medical industry and doctors who are "bonused" for prescribing the latest new wonder drug to patients who don't even realize they're being used as lab rats.

What these experts try to do is put us into comfort zones designed to shut off our critical thinking capabilities.
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Just apologizing for my error, not for my stand

It does sound very similar to the medical industry. I suppose the marketing teams branch out to all fields.


My mistake, although I was referring to your link leading me to other useful links.

But it appears that you don't wish to debate this subject further as you've made up your mind what is right for children, whether they're yours or someone else's. And I guess 400 plus feet of errors in text boods doesn't faze you any more than doctors prescribing the drugs that benefit them more than they do the patient. Education and medicine, the two things that affect us most: Snake oil for the mind and body. Who could ask for more.

search.yahoo.com...;_ylt=AjnRtqIv72opTFFYqjFFSFObvZx4?fr=yfp-t-521-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&p=errors%20found%20in%20textbooks

ETA ~ I totally spaced out snake oil for the soul. Plenty of that out there, too.
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by frazzle
My mistake, although I was referring to your link leading me to other useful links.

But it appears that you don't wish to debate this subject further as you've made up your mind what is right for children, whether they're yours or someone else's. And I guess 400 plus feet of errors in text boods doesn't faze you any more than doctors prescribing the drugs that benefit them more than they do the patient. Education and medicine, the two things that affect us most: Snake oil for the mind and body. Who could ask for more.

ETA ~ I totally spaced out snake oil for the soul. Plenty of that out there, too.
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. I haven't stated or implied that I was "ok" with any of that.... In fact, I spoke of how they were detrimental....



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by frazzle
My mistake, although I was referring to your link leading me to other useful links.

But it appears that you don't wish to debate this subject further as you've made up your mind what is right for children, whether they're yours or someone else's. And I guess 400 plus feet of errors in text boods doesn't faze you any more than doctors prescribing the drugs that benefit them more than they do the patient. Education and medicine, the two things that affect us most: Snake oil for the mind and body. Who could ask for more.

ETA ~ I totally spaced out snake oil for the soul. Plenty of that out there, too.
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. I haven't stated or implied that I was "ok" with any of that.... In fact, I spoke of how they were detrimental....


I missed that typo. Grrr, I hate when that happens ~ all too often.

Yes, you did speak of the detriments, but it seemed from a very ho hum stance and your posts are solidly pro public school without any deviation, despite the errors in text books and the fact that kids are dropping out or graduating with no clue about the "real" world. The thing I don't understand is how people can think they could make needed changes if they continue to prop up failing systems by using them.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by frazzle
My mistake, although I was referring to your link leading me to other useful links.

But it appears that you don't wish to debate this subject further as you've made up your mind what is right for children, whether they're yours or someone else's. And I guess 400 plus feet of errors in text boods doesn't faze you any more than doctors prescribing the drugs that benefit them more than they do the patient. Education and medicine, the two things that affect us most: Snake oil for the mind and body. Who could ask for more.

ETA ~ I totally spaced out snake oil for the soul. Plenty of that out there, too.
edit on 7-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. I haven't stated or implied that I was "ok" with any of that.... In fact, I spoke of how they were detrimental....


I missed that typo. Grrr, I hate when that happens ~ all too often.

Yes, you did speak of the detriments, but it seemed from a very ho hum stance and your posts are solidly pro public school without any deviation, despite the errors in text books and the fact that kids are dropping out or graduating with no clue about the "real" world. The thing I don't understand is how people can think they could make needed changes if they continue to prop up failing systems by using them.


With the dropout rate around 12%, that means that 88% of them are doing well. It would be great to have the dropout rate much lower, but it has decreased by over 10% in just the past decade (was around 22%), so something is going right...... remember that 100 years ago, the graduation rate was only about 12%, so it's done a 180 degree turn. It's just that these days, everybody is expected to go to school and graduate. 100 years ago, graduating from 8th grade was the big accomplishment, so the graduation rate for High School was around 12% as opposed to the dropout rate being 12%. That's a 180 degree turn!
Yes, I am pro-school and public schools are the best options we presently have.
edit on 8-6-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 06:27 PM
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reply to post by PurpleChiten
 


C’mon Chiten, you should know me well enough by now to realize that if you don’t include citations for your stats I’ll just have to go looking for some. Well okay, I’ll do that even if you do include them because far too often statistics lie and liars make statistics.

This was from nine years ago:


Some 23 million American adults are functionally illiterate by the simplest tests of everyday reading, writing, and comprehension.

According to the U.S. Department of Education, 47 million American adults are functionally illiterate today, and each week, another 44,000 people are added to the U. S. adult illiterate population.
1. About 13 percent of all 17-year-olds in the United States can be considered functionally illiterate. Functional illiteracy among minority youth may run as high as 40 percent.

The U.S. Department of Education says that the number of functionally illiterate 17-year-olds in the United States still is about 13 percent. Among minority youth, 44 percent of 17-year-olds are functionally illiterate.
2. Average achievement of high school students on most standardized tests is now lower than 26 years ago when Sputnik was launched.
www.educationworld.com...


These people haven’t gone anywhere, they’re still out there somewhere, getting all their information from the TV.

This was from January of this year:


Only 7 of 10 ninth graders today will get high school diplomas. A decade after the No Child Left Behind law mandated efforts to reduce the racial gap, about 80 percent of white and Asian students graduate from high school, compared with only 55 percent of blacks and Hispanics. www.nytimes.com...


Sorry Chiten, somebody’s trying to put lipstick on that pig again by cherry picking stats to make the overall numbers look better than they are. And despite the fact that 21 states now mandate that students stay in high school until graduation or until they reach the age of 18, the overall dropout rate is still extremely high, especially in certain population areas. Also, as noted above, many who DO graduate, enter the workforce as functional illiterates and there are a great many more who receive diplomas, certificates and college degrees know nothing about the "real" world because it isn’t taught in our politically correct education system ~ like why our economy is circling the drain. Hell, Bernacke and Geithner haven’t figured that out yet.

And a hundred years ago ~ I’ve seen test papers my mother aced in eighth grade (around 1920) that most college graduates couldn’t pass today. Seriously. This is a result of the systematic lowering of standards from decade to decade, which doesn’t make us smarter, it just makes us think we’re smarter.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by frazzle
 


I clearly stated "dropout rates" and "graduation rates" and you are trying to bring in other stats to support your end, which would be fine....if this were a thread about educational debate, but it isn't.
If you would like to discuss it more, please make a thread and that can be accomodated.
Let's get back to the topic of THIS thread and talk about what we really DO want and how to accomplish it in a postive way...for THIS thread... and we can discuss the issue of your choosing on your thread, please U2U me a link and I will be happy to join you there to continue the discussion.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by PurpleChiten
 



Your thread asks what exactly it is that we want and I said that I wanted our children to receive a better education and how that might be accomplished. We both got stuck on that and I'll accept my share of the responsibility for it.

So my last comment on the subject will be that what we NEED is the truth, no matter how painful or inconvenient it may be, and no matter what we WANT to hear, because if we build our dreams on a foundation of something besides the truth, everything that follows will be one falsehood after another stacked up like a child's building blocks and sooner or later, someone will come along and knock them down.

Amazingly, our building blocks are being knocked down by the same people who run the schools.


edit on 9-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by PurpleChiten
 



Your thread asks what exactly it is that we want and I said that I wanted our children to receive a better education and how that might be accomplished. We both got stuck on that and I'll accept my share of the responsibility for it.

So my last comment on the subject will be that what we NEED is the truth, no matter how painful or inconvenient it may be, and no matter what we WANT to hear, because if we build our dreams on a foundation of something besides the truth, everything that follows will be one falsehood after another stacked up like a child's building blocks and sooner or later, someone will come along and knock them down.

Amazingly, our building blocks are being knocked down by the same people who run the schools.


edit on 9-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)


Thank you for returning both of us to the topic at hand.





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