To Everything Turn, Turn, Turn.....

A friend of mine has a great interest in a premise and wants some feedback from others. It's concerning the nature of the universe and time itself. Although we may not have yet reached that singularity, the moment when everything sprang into existance or even settled on whether there is a single moment or not, we're here now. Right here, right now, unless of course you're the Higgs Boson, that little devil

Anyway, is there a cycle of creation/re-creation where one moment is the result of all possible other moment coming before it and diverging into all possible moments coming afterward. A convergent/divergent existance with probabilties and possibilites that could be externally calculated to predict or even determine what path existance may take...

The philosophy of existance itself, discussed by the great minds that make up our forum. What is the nature of our existance now that we do exist. Is it a single point of light that is affected by space/time or is it linear or is it a cycle that "pulsates" in and out of existance.

It's a wide-open topic as well as one that is touched on, but never delved into in and of itself. On behalf of my friend (LilDudeissocool), who isn't a "big mouthed" as I am, what are your theories on this?
He'll join in and try to narrow down exactly what it is he's questioning but wasn't comfortable starting the topic and...being the chiten I am, I want to help him get his answers. Since I don't have all the answers, I figured the fine minds here could join together and maybe help "converge on the answer for him".

I guess the place to start is... Is our existance linear or is there some unseen cycle beyond our here/now status? (and of course since the cyclic notion is what he's interested in, where does it go from there)

I've said before, that all-this seems like a Star Trek holodeck program. With the setting on default to the darkest, most difficult, traumatic ends. It's like a computer program. There must be some way to change that default. Thats just me, though. My theory.

I do not believe our existence is linear. I would lean towards the idea that every probability that occurs, occurs simultaneously, whether it be past event or future. Existing in multiple (or rather infinite) dimensions. Maybe our current experience in existence is only recognizable because of a resonance that our perception and a certain probability have together.

Of course, I have no idea and can only speculate. I also just got home from working midnight to eight and my mind is kinda fried so there is a possibility none of what I just said makes any sense to someone else.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


All you're bound to get is "I believe this" or "I don't believe that" or "This is the way I think it is, because it makes me happy." And the reason is, physics can't answer this question. Physics can provide many working explanations for the nature of the universe - cyclic, linear, static, whatever, there's a different theory for every shoe size.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

All you're bound to get is "I believe this" or "I don't believe that" or "This is the way I think it is, because it makes me happy." And the reason is, physics can't answer this question. Physics can provide many working explanations for the nature of the universe - cyclic, linear, static, whatever, there's a different theory for every shoe size.

That's cool though, because I think that's basically what my buddy wants, what do people think and what do they believe... what are the possibilities?

Originally posted by Saucerwench
I've said before, that all-this seems like a Star Trek holodeck program. With the setting on default to the darkest, most difficult, traumatic ends. It's like a computer program. There must be some way to change that default. Thats just me, though. My theory.

Not a bad theory at all. I've thought about that a few times myself (everytime I watch the Matrix movies!) If so.... what impacts does it have on our reality?

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
I do not believe our existence is linear. I would lean towards the idea that every probability that occurs, occurs simultaneously, whether it be past event or future. Existing in multiple (or rather infinite) dimensions. Maybe our current experience in existence is only recognizable because of a resonance that our perception and a certain probability have together.

Of course, I have no idea and can only speculate. I also just got home from working midnight to eight and my mind is kinda fried so there is a possibility none of what I just said makes any sense to someone else.

speculation is great! that's pretty much what my friend is looking for. What are the speculations, how can they be expanded?
I guess it's a very 'philosophical' search, not something to be answered but something to be explored

and thanks to everyone so far!! please, expand, explore... I'm sure when my buddy gets up and online, he'll have many more questions. This is a great opportunity to tap some brilliant minds!

reply to post by PurpleChiten


The possibilities are endless. Anything that explains what we see here and now is a legitimate possibility. You can start out with miniature skittlecorns (unicorns made of skittles, for anyone wondering) in a Welcome to Lake Chickamacomico snowglobe, and if it turns out to lead to the universe we see today then it's a working theory.

Personally, I believe in a linear, one-off universe created for a specific purpose. You might say, it's something I've read.

And, by the way, LilDude and I have had many an interesting conversation. I always enjoy his ideas and questions.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


If you would ponder this, the idea that the universe repeats itself in the exact same order based on a recreation model. The primeval atom being made up of a single base energy comprised of all the different known energies on the electromagnetic scale, a single super dense photon lets say. The amount of energy being the same each time as energy can not be created nor destroyed. This would mean we live our same exact lives each time we live. Everything that happens in the Universe during its life cycle is the same. This because all things that happen are linked to a single event based upon not variables, (this due to the fact the conditions can't not be altered as the law of conservation dictates and therefore cannot allow chaos theory to be true) but a predetermination theoretical model which has to be more than plausible. Therefore I am a believer in such a possibility of recreation. For this reason alone in asking this question, "What are the odds you and I are alive right now?" should sway you. This knowing that each cycle could last trillions of years. If so, you have a better chance of hitting the Mega millions jackpot two weeks in a row.


Do you think there could be something to it?

A bit like Deja vu is actually a memory of when we experirenced it the last time in our previous existance...
Interesting concepts indeed!

Originally posted by Saucerwench
I've said before, that all-this seems like a Star Trek holodeck program. With the setting on default to the darkest, most difficult, traumatic ends. It's like a computer program. There must be some way to change that default. Thats just me, though. My theory.

Great analogy.

To change the default you would have to add or subtract from the total amount of energy within the entire Universe. Because everything is linked to the singularity of the Big Bang event everything that has, is and will occur in this universe from beginning to end is predetermined even down to human thought, freewill just being an illusion of perceived state of being which is really hard to swallow and why chaos theory, the bases for "randomness" in the Universe is so popularly embraced by the establishment.

If you can get around the law of energy conservation you can then "change that default." The folks who came up with chaos theory math somehow fail to realize that for them to be correct the law of the conservation of energy would need to be compromised continuously. They hide behind the fortress so to speak of only a few people on the planet being able to understand the math involved. This makes it convenient to embrace an idea that the universe is random. It's extremely intellectually lazy to think so, but they have constructed a straw man argument by stating that randomness is fact when it is not. It's prima facie. Who is going to challenge the math. Even if you do successfully who is going to be able to recognize you did? Just the people who came up with it and they wont budge like any fanatic whose bread and butter depends on the fanaticism for peer respect, acceptance and professional and thus financial survival.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


I think one day when we can observe more details of the Universe, we will be able to predict what will happen in the Universe, like we do now predicting the weather. However the results matched to the predictions will be difficult given the needed time to observe results. The human race may not be around or have evolved into another life form before any results can be known. That means the math will have to be right on the money so to speak, undisputed. Right now chaos theory (a product of junk science, aka myth math which no one wants to dispute because the effort it would take to do so is overwhelming) is the major roadblock in the way of studying the recreation theory in any mainstream meaningful way. That blocks access to funding and the minds available who can do the work.

One day if we are able to study predetermination as a rational science we could even maybe find there is something provable pertaining to the personal experience of deja vu, but a residual imprint of some sort would have to exist and the mind retrieving occasional bits and parts of such a theoretical recording. I don't know what would be the theoretical mechanism for that. I guess it would have to be electromagnetic."

I had a dream a couple nights ago that I was viewing two different life scenarios, the second of which people were being mean to me and I told someone, "I want my alternate reality".

Maybe it's a sign I'm sick of the manipulations of the evil nephilim. On what other site could I say that?

I like the idea of the whole quantum physics thing where we can shape our life in an advanced way. But we still have to deal with the consequences of our life choices in the here and now.

S&F Purp, great thread title IMO, reminds of the song. I always enjoy your posts and you seem to be a wise and open person. Like someone said up there, I'm just going to be telling basically my opinion and speculation on the matter. I don't think that's such a bad thing though and if we didn't do that here then this forum would be empty and boring. So yea, this will be my "this is what I think" post. I'll try my best to present it in the form of questions and speculation so someone doesn't feel I'm trying to preach to them.

Maybe we have been thinking of time the wrong way? Time and space seemed to be entwined with each other, almost being one "force" in itself I guess. Perhaps there is no such thing as a "moment" and everything just "is". In the realm of possibilities and and how we get caught up thinking about what could/has happened to produce reality now and how we influence it to change the reality ahead of us (glancing on chaos theory here), maybe we forgot that these are only human concepts intended to describe the world around us and not actually what is.

I guess the place to start is... Is our existance linear or is there some unseen cycle beyond our here/now status? (and of course since the cyclic notion is what he's interested in, where does it go from there)

I honestly don't think we have a proper word for it. "Linear" seems like such a simple word to describe the passage of time and movement through space. Maybe "variable dynamic inevitability", that's really a tough one and I am not a mathematician and physicist, maybe they've got a better explanation in the language of math or even words and sciences that I don't know that much about.

You can slow it down, maybe with extreme variations in physics you can even locally stop the passage of "time" or speed it up. The physical world seems to play a part in how fast things happen. Time, space and matter are all deeply linked together, suggesting that they were in fact once the same thing long, long ago.

Even in biology and conscious thought, different organisms appear to perceive time differently. Think of a hummingbird or an ant, obviously those creatures experience a "slower" perception of time than an elephant or a whale. They seem to be able to perceive and analyze what is "happening" a lot faster than a larger and slower creature. It's interesting that everything's heart beats about the same number of times, some just beat faster or slower. Perhaps we may even be able to influence our own perception of time to a slight degree? Can we train our conscious minds to perceive things slower or faster? Ever been intoxicated? Know how people say time speeds up? Maybe that's because the intoxicated mind "ignores" little bits and pieces of time and seems to flow through it faster.

I don't know if how fast our heart is beating has anything to do with this, but I do know that when I am running miles and miles it seems to take a lot longer than if I am jotting away on a keyboard. Does the heart slow down when you reach a "runners high"? Mind over matter, the brain causes the muscles to relax a little and allows muscles to work more fluidly and efficiently. The mind and body go into a state of peace despite the physical activity and constant damage to the body, time is ignored and you move more toward the elephant that the hummingbird even though doing the same activity.

As far as a cyclic aspect of reality, I tend to think of things more in the way many, many different instances of two competing forces. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, not so much a strictly defined cycle as a counter-force that tends to create a repetition. Let's take order and chaos, when there is too much order: chaos ensues. When there is too much chaos: order sets in almost naturally. Along the way small disturbances in balance throw things off here and there but the general trend is that everything moves towards the center in every way. When it reaches the center, there is a sort of momentum that causes everything to overshoot perfect balance and sway back to the other side, repeating the process in the polar opposite eventually coming back across to make a cycle. Again, I don't think we have a word to describe it. Sorry if that is hard to understand, just talking out my ass here.

As you can tell I'm a fan of chaos theory and the concept of chaos itself, perhaps because the world has too much order so the universe is telling me to become a counter to it? People seem predisposed to think chaos = bad, order = good. I think they are both... both.

Anyways, sorry for that divergent (I guess?) post, but there is a plethora of things to consider when talking about how time and space is perceived. I think that all things are linked and we don't so much have much of a way to describe time, space and our existence in layman's terms or in any common language I know. I don't know if I hit exactly on what you are trying to discuss, but nonetheless you sent me on another train of thought I felt like writing down here. Hopefully I wasn't too philosophically metaphysical XD for the science forum.

Later.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I had a dream a couple nights ago that I was viewing two different life scenarios, the second of which people were being mean to me and I told someone, "I want my alternate reality".

Maybe it's a sign I'm sick of the manipulations of the evil nephilim. On what other site could I say that?

I like the idea of the whole quantum physics thing where we can shape our life in an advanced way. But we still have to deal with the consequences of our life choices in the here and now.

edit on 5-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I know you have a spiritual interest (from arguing with you on other threads, not an arguing thread here though so we can get along just fine ). Would you see it as being "pre-destined" in a way, that we're going to do the things we're going to do, or that we're at least supposed to do those things as being part of a big "outline' that's set up for us, either by a creator or some other force at work.
I know that even though I am a scientist, I also believe in the spiritual and sometimes like to ponder how they might intertwine. There are definitely many possibilities out there and I don't generally discredit one unless there's a definitive way to show it doesn't exist.
For example, from one of the "theories" that I like to entertain on my own...
Does God have a plan for us? Not a blow by blow, minute by minute, "you'll do this and this and this and there's nothing you can do to change that" but more of a "This is what I want the result to be and I want you to accomplish it"? I like looking at that possiblity because it allows for free will as well as pre-destination to an extent. A good example from scripture would probably be Jonah and the "fish" where God had to push him to do what was expected but free will played a part as well. I'm not saying this theory is correct or absolute, just a possibility that I like to ponder upon. I realize there are wide arrays of belief or non belief in God, and not really getting into that debate, just looking at the possiblities based on the premise that he does exist which may or may not be correct (should cover the believers, agnostics and athiests that way as well as those of other beliefs) ... you've probably seen that I like to interweave concepts a lot from other threads such as creationism and the big bang being interdependent with neither of the present explanations being complete and accurate due to the disallowance of the other.
Just looking for your take on it.

Originally posted by RSF77
S&F Purp, great thread title IMO, reminds of the song. I always enjoy your posts and you seem to be a wise and open person. Like someone said up there, I'm just going to be telling basically my opinion and speculation on the matter. I don't think that's such a bad thing though and if we didn't do that here then this forum would be empty and boring. So yea, this will be my "this is what I think" post. I'll try my best to present it in the form of questions and speculation so someone doesn't feel I'm trying to preach to them.

Thanks! I did base it on the song!!
That's exactly what I'm looking for, just the opinions and speculations

reply to post by RSF77


Pretty interesting ideas!
What I'm getting from it is some ideas from "Graph Theory" involving what they refer to as "trees" and "forests". You go from one point to another, then there's a possiblity of other paths, the one you take leads to other paths further down the "road". Much like a tree diagram and you get our present position by following the path that's taken as opposed to all the possible paths that exist. It's also one of the basic concepts in chaos theory, so the connection is definitely there!
You weren't divergent at all, very interesting concepts!

LilDude (or anyone else) can focus on the concepts he/they want to build on if we want to dive deeper into any of them.
I just wanted to start things out pretty much wide-open to see where it led us... there's chaos theory and paths from Graph Theory popping up again!!

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
What I'm getting from it is some ideas from "Graph Theory" involving what they refer to as "trees" and "forests". You go from one point to another, then there's a possiblity of other paths, the one you take leads to other paths further down the "road". Much like a tree diagram and you get our present position by following the path that's taken as opposed to all the possible paths that exist.

Okay, consider this:

There really is no tree so to speak, no million different possibilities and alternate realities. The universe is fated to bring all things together eventually. We have free will, but we are also products of the universe.

The universe creates the cycle you are talking about in order to bring things back towards balance and unity. Whenever something, be it anything from an atom to a person to a fundamental force of nature, sways too far in one direction the universe naturally attempts to balance it with an opposite. If we try to take a different path than one of ultimate unity (oneness), it will inevitably lead back to center. The "branches" of the tree will connect back with the tree, with it's journey outward only for the purpose of expansion and assimilation of things.

Though the basic desire of life to unify and even the physical forces of the universe, our free will as a living entity is actually the catalyst of unity. The universe is working through us without us completely realizing it, somehow we are innately predisposed to do this while retaining free will.

So instead of looking like a tree:


It looks more like a complex version of this with a seemingly infinite number of instances and variations:


The branches of the tree are "fated" to come back to the tree one way or another, the trunk of the tree represents universal balance. Reality is so complex that it can take many different forms and paths, but inevitably leads back in, instead of out. Everything is countered and led back to center only to pass over it to the other side, where it will be countered and led back once again.

Instead of a million different possibilities, is there only one possibility with a million different paths to get there? Eventually taking every single path available and all things coming together as one.

Just food for thought.