A Question Concerning The Existence Of Intelligent ET Life

I also like the idea that there are natural highways of wormholes that connect all solor systems, that we are yet to find.

As time and my life go on, the more I think that there are no other intelligences in the universe like us. We're just a fluke. Now, there may be things we experience that are "projections" of our own intelligence on the universe, as it shifts though time and space. But these things aren't physical alien creatures who sort of live and evolved to think like us. They're like shadows of our own thoughts.

The Drake Equation is complete bullcrap, of course, because it doesn't account for the way time stretches and slows down the farther away things get from you. After only a relatively short distance (compared to the whole of the universe), the universe becomes frozen in amber. And then you die. That's why they're not here.

And I'm getting so tired of people who say "aliens" are "demons." Those people are fools blinded by dogma with no imagination and are not even worth talking to.

Originally posted by TheAnarchist
There is "some" evidence to suggest that children are born with residual vivid memories of past-lives [...] Some children insist that they've even had lives on other planets, though most the ones I've come across only remember earthly things.

Unfortunately, even if the children were correct, there's no way of distinguishing between a "true" past life and a psychic transmission, either directly from that past life or from the imagination or memory of somebody living. Not knowing any better, a child could easily mistake a telepathic vision or impression as a memory of something that happened to them.

Sure, telepathy could offer us a chance to communicate with or at least experience an "alien" being through the vastness of the universe, bypassing the problem of time freeze. But the alien experience would still have to be so close to ours just for us to understand it that it would be nearly impossible to tell what was real and what was just the dream in the sleeping brain of a science-fiction writer being broadcast to everyone who could pick it up.

reply to post by Blue Shift

As time and my life go on, the more I think that there are no other intelligences in the universe like us. We're just a fluke.

This is something I think about too.

I don't know how you feel about the possibility, but it leaves an impression of existential dread and wonder in me.

Dread that we could be the only window with a light on and wonder for the same reason.

I

Originally posted by ManInAsia
I don't think we can rule in or out any of these things.

It's always the same old problem. The more reasons a person can come up with as to why there should be aliens out there and how they might solve the problem of traveling the distances, the more difficult it becomes to explain why they're not already obviously here.

Then comes all the hypothesizing about possible reasons why they might purposely not make themselves known, which means we have to not only assume they're generally like us physically (they experience existence relatively the same way we do), but we also have to assume they[re like us emotionally and mentally. After a while, the assumptions just get to be too much.

And then I'm back to thinking it's just us. In this entire universe, we're the only things like us, and honestly, if there's nothing else like us in the universe, then all the rest of it doesn't matter.

Intellectual value? Aside from a mild intellectual curiosity, what difference does it make if in some other galaxy there is a planet of chlorine based crystal creatures who communicate complex philosophies in mathematics through crystal transfer? So what? We'll never know about them or communicate with them. So they might as well be imaginary,

We are small bits of energy making the system at be work for some even more greater and larger bit of energy. As is up, as is down. Not religous but that is the core essence of everything science has taught us so far. We are just begining to venture out of our little tiny chromosomal planet, just starting to send our prevelance outward into that great empty space. Fallen angels may as well be aliens as aliens may as well be angels. Human ideas lose meaning when we look at how far down we can see and how far out we can see.

Its a fractaled Cosmos of forever. To reject the idea of Alien is to reject ourselves as concious beings.

Originally posted by TheAnarchist
There's definitely other life out there, no doubt. Nature's clear about that. Intelligent or not, who knows, but probably. We became intelligent against all odds so I'm sure other species can (and have) too. It's not mentioned often in debates of this kind, but I also believe in the concept of reincarnation of the self-aware life energy we call consciousness - perhaps not personal identity as we know it, we're obviously not born (as humans) with some predetermined personality or history and a mature understanding of ourselves. But we're certainly born aware and one would hope, with increased wisdom from our previous lives on some level, to make these experiences meaningful.

I think one possibility is that "advanced civilizations" developed what we call, reincarnation, as a type of immortality. Could it be that reincarnation is just some advanced technology for maintaining the "self" to develop through many organic lifetimes?

And could it be that we are being kept deliberately isolated from the greater "galactic community" for some purpose - as a required step in our "schooling? Maybe out planet is some sort of "penal colony" where bad aliens are sent for remedial learning experiences as "earthling humans". Perhaps, we are all ETs, all aliens, but most of us forget that when we are born. Of course, I understand that most "past life memories" relate to previous lives on this planet, which would imply once you get sent to earth, you are probably stuck here forr many lives (if there is any merit to this theory - which is ... just a theory).

But I do sense that our planet is possibly under some sort of quarantine, which prevents us from obtaining knowledge of the ET civilizations surrounding us, aside from fleeting glimpses by isolated individuals.

Intelligent life throughout the multiverses is definitely a strong possibility. I'm still boggled why our scientists are so bent on finding planets with water on them. I think they are limiting their views to what makes life happen on Earth much as some people in the past thought the Earth was flat.

No telling what defines life. It could be pure energy with a "conscious", so to speak, or who knows what.

Another limiting factor is propulsion. Always hear scientist rattle on about the speed of light, and how long it would take blah blah blah. Who is to say that these beings cannot fold space, jump trough worm holes, astral project, or manifest where ever they want whenever they want? We simply do not know...

Are they even visible to our visual spectrum? The could purely existing in infrared or some realm that we can't fathom.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

As time and my life go on, the more I think that there are no other intelligences in the universe like us. We're just a fluke.

I don't know how you feel about the possibility, but it leaves an impression of existential dread and wonder in me. Dread that we could be the only window with a light on and wonder for the same reason.

It's the same feeling I get when I think about my own individual existence, I guess. We may interact with other people who are ostensibly in the same situation, and that might bring us a tiny bit of comfort in a short, confusing existence. Or we may try to comfort ourselves with various unprovable beliefs. But at the end of the day, we're all in this alone. And when we die, and our consciousness goes away forever, the universe itself will vanish.

We could very well be like that as a planet. A flicker of life in an otherwise dead universe, providing eyes to see it, and when the Sun flares and last microbe dies, the whole universe winks out.

Ive been reading mostly for a few years here on ATS and by far this is one of the most adult and quality discussions I have seen, kudos to all involved.

Myself being a mouse in a heard of elephants intelligence wise would add only that the possibilities are endless and 1 civilisation out there that has been working these issues for say even 100,000 years could have overcome so many problems in exploring space/time that to say its not even likely seems unrealistic.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by greybeard1

 

It'd be akin to putting two people here on earth, alone with no other people, each person on opposte sides of the planet from each other, and telling them to then go find each other.
On top of that, each person might on might not exist during the same time period as the other one is searching. The other person on the planet might have been around 1000 or 10,000 years ago, or they might show up in a 100, or 1000 years.

That's 2 people, one planet.

For a whole galaxy? The numbers are astounding.

edit on 3-6-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Such a open mind, but a ugly closed door in the middle of it, hope its not locked. We have lots of people on this 1 tiny planet and they bump into each other all the time.

Good post Red Hawk,
good to see some Irish here.

If FTL travel is possible, it would require very very smart science,
which in turn would take time, discipline, maturity and stability to crack.
I doubt whether high speed linear flight is the way to go
and it will involve something else to go between the stars,
but we will stick with the acronym FTL for now.

The universe has had a lot of time for civilizations to rise and no doubt fall,
and if the physics exist for FTL,
then someone will have found it by now.

There is also a caveat here that those in possession of such science,
cease being a risk just to themselves and potentially could pose a threat to other civilizations on other planets.
Therefore, if one race has the ability, it is likely others also have similar capabilities.
Therefore it is in everyone's best interest that have FTL capability,
that some sort of treaty exists, because now civilizations have the capability to contact each other.

If a civilization is deemed immature, and unstable, and may use the technology for the wrong reasons, it is likely races have taken the decision to protect such technology to keep it out of the hands of likely aggressors who are not yet ready to join the interstellar community, and leave them in the dark so to speak and no open contact.

If an alien shows up on someone else's planet,
then by default FTL technology exists.

It is my opinion that we are in the scenario depicted above,
we are warlike and unstable,
and are deliberately being kept in the dark.

If contact has been made with our military industrial complex,
then it is with rogue groups of aliens,
and nothing good can come of it,
because the human race is not mature enough to be allowed to roam the stars,
butting into other peoples business.

If we had a hypothetical FTL spaceship,
crewed by the military,
no matter how good the intentions of the Captain,
he/she would not have full autonomy
as he/she would have to ultimately follow orders
issued by the chain of command.
The whole thing could be corrupted by the few,
or political interference.

Just my opinion.

BTW, I do not have a shadow of doubt,
not even for a microsecond,
that the Galaxy and the Universe is teeming with life.
It is nonsensical to think otherwise
once one has comprehended the sheer scale of the cosmos,
and the persistence of life once established.
And evolve it will,
and it has had eons to play this game,
in a multitude of environments.

I also think NASA or the USA
are not playing straight with the rest of the world.
I understand their need for security,
but I think their space missions have been black for a very long time,
essentially since the moon missions.
What the public are presented with,
up to and including the Shuttle,
is very old technology on steroids.

Originally posted by game over man
reply to post by Druscilla

 

I don't understand your post, what do we not know about the Milky Way galaxy currently? You are contradicting yourself in your posts because you already know how many stars are in the Milky Way galaxy but yet we still need to fly in space ships and survey it?

Knowing what we know about the Milky Way, is like seeing a beach with all the sand from a resort hotel balcony.
We can see there is sand, and guess a number of things about the sand, but, we've yet to really truly examine the sand, much less every single grain of it.

If we knew everything there was to know about the Milky Way, our galaxy, we could say with 100% accuracy where every single earth-like planet is in the galaxy, and describe every form of life from microbial on up to any level of intelligence that exists (if any) in the galaxy.

Sure, we know a thing or two about our own galaxy and the universe, as well as a few tricks to how it works, but, we actually really only know enough to ask a few questions about it.

Originally posted by knoledgeispower

lol at the comic strip ...
to the main point, how do you know time travel doesn't exist? We are just in the beginning phase of science and we're only a class 1 civilization

Actually, we're a Type Zero civilization.
We're far far away from being a Type I, which would involve us having the ability to harness the entire energy of our star, the sun, perhaps with something like a dyson sphere.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze

i may be wrong im no physicist but jumping from star to star instantaneously sounds like a good gasp on how to bend the space time continuum, again i havent studied much of this stuff so please drop some knowledge on me if u want

Manufacture, creation, or transit of natural wormholes would be one solution that would not involve time travel.

Warping space, folding it over on itself to make the two endpoints of origin and destination very close together would also work without needed time travel.

If there are other levels of space or dimensionality like hyperspace, over-space, under-space, sub-space, and other such, and it were possible to navigate them to facilitate travel over great distances at very little cost, then, that would also be a solution where time travel isn't necessary.

Teleportation using something like quatum entanglement to copy/paste something or someone some other place in the universe would also work, though that could be messy in creating multiple duplicates of travellers.

There're many more other solutions that can describe FTL travel without need for time travel. Most every science-fiction book out there has one imagined kind of solution or another.

Originally posted by quantumfluctuation

Millions of probes surveying solar systems in parallel may reduce the timescale to something more manageable

Sure, that would indeed speed up the process. However, can you name the number of probes we've sent out into the lonely dark, and name how many of them have actually even exited our solar system as well as what relevant technology suites are installed on any of these probes that would help us in locating and surveying other stars for life?

reply to post by seabhac-rua


I definitely think there are alien species more advanced than us, actually a lot more advanced. I believe there are a species that are so advanced that they could almost have godlike powers, you could say. I also believe there are also some species of aliens that are not as advanced but still more advanced than us in that they are able to travel through space. I compare the top advanced aliens that have that godlike type power with angels. I see angels as HIGHLY advanced species of aliens.
I love talking about this subject, i find it very interesting and important to know, and i feel events to come will be highly related with all of this. Good post.

Originally posted by Donegal_TDI
If FTL travel is possible, it would require very very smart science,
which in turn would take time, discipline, maturity and stability to crack.

Very insightful post. I think you may be right about our cosmic quarantine

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by quantumfluctuation

Millions of probes surveying solar systems in parallel may reduce the timescale to something more manageable

Sure, that would indeed speed up the process. However, can you name the number of probes we've sent out into the lonely dark, and name how many of them have actually even exited our solar system as well as what relevant technology suites are installed on any of these probes that would help us in locating and surveying other stars for life?

Voyager I is now in the outermost layer of the heliosphere, shortly to leave the solar system

It still has an active ultraviolet spectrometer, triaxial fluxgate magnetometer, low energy charged particle instrument, cosmic ray system, plasma wave system, and an old Etch-A-Sketch that somebody threw in there

In any case, working on the assumption of superluminal travel, highly advanced probes could be very autonomous and loaded with instrumentation

If they're out there I don't believe they're benevolent.

The human animal barely controls his passions. Who's to say that these creatures haven't just thrown in the towel and decided to terrorize the galaxy one solar system at a time?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Incidentally, Hynek started out working for the government on Project Blue Book. What he saw there turned him into a believer.

reply to post by disgustingfatbody


To be honest, I think we have more to fear from those on earth than our heavenly brothers.
The human being can be a highly dangerous animal.
It all depends,
from our visitors point of view,
if those animals are the ones that have the power here.
I suppose it is the way of things
that the strong dominate the weak.

If they deem this to be so,
then no contact is imminent.

If they are mature enough to have their hands on FTL travel,
I assume they have also evolved spiritually
and bear us no malice.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


The premise of the OP is one that I've raised as well, many times, and I've learned a bit about what to expect in the reactions. Ultimately, I think the possibility of alien visitation to our planet is not such a complicated issue. It is actually pretty simple.

The first thing to understand is that I am not proposing a rational, scientific explanation for interstellar travel, or the UFO phenomenon, or any of that. This immediately turns off the minds of most scientific skeptics who will say, and with good reason, that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. But please take a step back for a minute and hear me out.

Science could be defined as our endeavor to quantify and understand the universe around us. It is constantly being refined as we make new discoveries or establish new theories. The scientific method is the law of the land when it comes to making claims about what we know to be true. You cannot argue with the scientific method because it is not a matter of culture, or religion, or philosophy. It is purely logical, akin to saying 2 and 2 is 4. It is a standardized way of looking at things and defining them, a true and honest methodology. So when people say that it is scientifically impossible to travel faster than light, I agree with them, and so should you.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, here are some things that science is NOT.

Science is NOT absolute knowledge, because it is only a record of what we have learned so far.
Science is NOT a statement of what is unknown, but merely a statement of what is known.
Science is NOT a collection of assumptions, because even a basic hypothesis requires evidence.

We often forget, as we have throughout history, that science thrives in a humble mind. As soon as we bring things like pride or selfishness or emotion into it, we lose track of the true spirit of scientific endeavor. And most importantly, science is supposed to be an embrace of observation, yet there are and always have been respected scientists who will stick fingers in their ears as soon as people start making OBSERVATIONS that conflict with their current scientific models. Again, this is often a matter of pride.


So let me make this clear. When we talk about alien visitation, it is NOT because we have discovered some flaw in the theory of relativity. It is NOT because some corollary to Drake's Equation dictates that aliens must visit the planet Earth. It is because PEOPLE ARE SEEING ALIENS.

The common assumption that I see everywhere is, "If I can't find an explanation, then there IS NO EXPLANATION." This is not science. This is pride. Most people just refuse to admit the possibility that there -might- be a scientific explanation for something that is BEYOND THEIR UNDERSTANDING. Remember: I am not saying there IS such an explanation. I am saying there MIGHT be. It's called non-dualistic thinking.

So, when you claim that alien visitation is impossible because of the theory of relativity, or because aliens don't have time to investigate all the worlds out there, I have to ask you, why are you making all these assumptions?? Why are you assuming that aliens have to "travel" using conventional 20th century laws of propulsion? Why are you assuming that alien visitation involves any "travel" as in accelerating from point A to point B over time in the first place? Why are you assuming that aliens have to read through lists of planetary data like you or I read a book, and that they couldn't have automated processes to handle such data? And why are you assuming that they would judge the visitation of our world the same way a human judges a visit to another country?

And when you ask me "Why are you assuming that aliens are visiting us in the first place," I have to tell you, I'm not assuming that is happening at all. What I AM doing is concluding that it might be possible, based on my own observations of the UFO phenomenon and the observations of many other respectable sources.

The bottom line is, I don't know why aliens would visit us, or how they would visit us, and neither do you. But the UFO phenomenon is REAL, in a SCIENTIFIC sense (if you don't believe this basic establishment, then please research Leslie Kean), and like it or not, an extraterrestrial explanation may be one of the best explanations we have.

reply to post by Donegal_TDI


What if they're not spiritual creatures?

You can't apply earthly values to an entity not of this world.

The truth is we haven't got a clue.

Everything. including humans, can be reduced to information. Find a way to transport information faster than the speed of light, and voila, interstellar space travel is possible. Of course, you have to disassemble all the info into bits to start and then reassemble all the bits into a person at the point of destination. Sounds crazy, but information doesn't have mass, so it is as light as light and perhaps lighter than light, thus it can possibly move faster. How fast can information move within your brain? Pretty darn fast!