A Question Concerning The Existence Of Intelligent ET Life

Originally posted by Druscilla
Yes, the universe is astoundingly vast.
The vastness of the universe does indeed set probability quite high for millions, if not billions of intelligent technological civilizations absolutely thriving across the universe.

Still, the very same vastness that makes this probability, is the very same thing that makes it quite improbable that any one intelligence will ever bump into any other.

There can be Billions of civilizations, all of them even having instantaneous travel, but, because the universe is so vast, running into the exact place and time in space that another civilization is extent, is extremely improbable.

Take just our galaxy, of some 300-700 Billion stars.
Average that to 500 Billion just for grins.

If you could travel to every single one of those 500 Billion stars instantaneously, and survey the whole star system in just one second before jumping to the next, how long would that take?

That's 500,000,000,000 seconds.
divide that by 60 for minutes = 8,300,000,000 minutes. 8 billion minutes
divide that by another 60 for hours and we get = 138,300,000 hours
divide by 24 for the number of days = 5763889
and then divide by 365 for years = 15,791

That's over 15,000 years to explore our galaxy and our galaxy alone in spending only one second at each star.

Multiply that 15,000 by the 500 Billion other galaxies there are out in the known universe and even taking one second at each star would take longer than the age of the universe itself to explore the universe.

edit on 2-6-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

so if a civilization can jump from star to star, there on the verge of time travel or already time traveling so technically if time travel was possible for one of these billions of civilizations they could be everywhere in no time at all

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Good topic.
Yes I believe that ET's have been visiting Earth ever since the Caveman days. Throughout history you see cases of cultures that have drawings/carvings/paintings/monuments that show a wide range of different ET's. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that our Gods/Goddesses are actually ET's.
I hope we can one day learn about all the visits to Earth over the span of it's existence. Who knows, maybe even some ET's settled on Earth a long time ago and we're the offspring.

Possibilities are endless

Originally posted by Pauligirl
There’s a lot of space. How would they know we are here?

intothecontinuum.tumblr.com...

Humans on Earth have been transmitting radio waves for over 100 years. The furthest these waves could have traveled away from Earth by now is about 100 light years. Thus, in communicating with extraterrestrial civilizations we have only managed to cover a region 200 light years in diameter around the Earth. Relative to the size of our Milky Way galaxy, which stretches about 100,000 light years in diameter, this is like comparing the area covered by Los Angeles to the surface area of the Earth! Since transmitted radio waves have not had the power to get through Earth’s ionosphere until about the 50s this distance is even smaller still. Nevertheless, after about 1 light year radio waves would probably be indistinguishable from the background radiation anyway. Perhaps this provides some justification for the Fermi paradox.

We are a class 0 civilization and in the beginning steps of science. Who's to say they don't have the technology to be able to detect life. Through the evolution of a civilization, how do we know that there isn't something in them that makes them aware of other life. They could be inter-dimensional instead of inter-stellar or a combination of both inter-dimensional and inter-stellar for all we know.

We really have no idea so anything and everything is possible

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
so if a civilization can jump from star to star, there on the verge of time travel or already time traveling so technically if time travel was possible for one of these billions of civilizations they could be everywhere in no time at all

Sure, if we're playing Calvin Ball, and you want to make up a rule about time travel being possible.
If we're playing Calvin Ball rules then, we can excel to all sorts of ridiculous point and counterpoint.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
so if a civilization can jump from star to star, there on the verge of time travel or already time traveling so technically if time travel was possible for one of these billions of civilizations they could be everywhere in no time at all

Sure, if we're playing Calvin Ball, and you want to make up a rule about time travel being possible.
If we're playing Calvin Ball rules then, we can excel to all sorts of ridiculous point and counterpoint.



lol at the comic strip ...
to the main point, how do you know time travel doesn't exist? We are just in the beginning phase of science and we're only a class 1 civilization

reply to post by seabhac-rua

Anyways, all I'm saying is this: If you believe there is intelligent life out there then why is it too much to accept that they may have visited us, and maybe still are?

I'm sort of like Schroedinger's Cat when it comes to visiting intelligent life - equally disbelieving as believing. Conflicted in other words...

Like others have pointed out, the odds of us existing at the same time as someone else and being within spitting distance are pretty remote. What these odds fail to address is whether life is necessary? By this, I'm asking if biology should be a benchmark of identifying intelligence? Could a long-lived, wide-spread civilisation realise its own mortality and invest itself in the perpetuation of its existence as non-biological intelligence?

In this scenario, organic intelligence would eventually become something like digital intelligence and be amenable to infinite replication and endless development as long as it had space to exist in. Imagine yourself as a digital entity as easy to copy as an mp3 file. Entropy would be one limitation. As such, time and space would be less of an issue than we like to imagine. Self-replicating *machines* could spread through systems and galaxies and contain the consciousness of life-forms that haven't existed in a flesh and blood sense for billions of years.

By 'machines' I'm operating under the limitations of our language; these would be like comparing a cave painting with the blue-prints of a space station. Also, if intelligence was translated into energy, would it be confined to the same space/time we are?

I think this is the future of any intelligent species as it seeks to insure its existence against the forces of entropy and the inevitability of endlessly collapsing civilisation.

All speculation...I know.

The thing is, could something like the above explain some of the curious accounts of technologically structured, intelligently-behaved objects over the decades? Perhaps the lack of communication (White House landings etc) is the behaviour of an intelligence so timeless that it has no motivation to say hello? Emotional experience and empathy would be concepts made abstract when they stepped out of the flesh. Also, if something had existed for time-spans we can barely grasp, their world-view would be on a scale we can only pretend to imagine.

*Something* seems to be sharing/occupying/visiting the same space as our Earth. Whatever the explanations turn out to be, they'll probably be a damn sight more complicated and surprising than 'away teams' of aliens flying in from outside the Solar System.

There's definitely other life out there, no doubt. Nature's clear about that. Intelligent or not, who knows, but probably. We became intelligent against all odds so I'm sure other species can (and have) too. It's not mentioned often in debates of this kind, but I also believe in the concept of reincarnation of the self-aware life energy we call consciousness - perhaps not personal identity as we know it, we're obviously not born (as humans) with some predetermined personality or history and a mature understanding of ourselves. But we're certainly born aware and one would hope, with increased wisdom from our previous lives on some level, to make these experiences meaningful.

There is "some" evidence to suggest that children are born with residual vivid memories of past-lives, which is an idea strongly discouraged by modern theology and culture and so these memories quickly fade as the child develops a sense of consistent environment and is taught which thoughts are acceptable and which aren't - aka "conditioned", by all kinds of authority figures in home life, school life, social life and most cases "church life". Some children insist that they've even had lives on other planets, though most the ones I've come across only remember earthly things.

It could be bullsh*t, who knows. Maybe these kids just pick up this information from a very young age and have incredibly complex, deep and profound imaginations, like the skeptics believe. I don't think I was born with such memories, I can't remember the specifics of what I thought about as a child. But if each lifetime were indeed just a one-off, I imagine it would defeat the purpose of the experiences and evolution in general. I find it hard to believe a baby born in the middle-ages would instinctively know how to operate an iphone, but I've seen babies not old enough to talk pick up modern technology for the first time and work it out faster than my grandmother could. Is this evidence of consciousness evolution? Some form of esoteric progress? Maybe. Perhaps it is just crazy new-age bullsh*t. I can't test the theory because I don't know any babies born in the middle-ages.

In any case, energy cannot be created or destroyed but only change forms, and I'm not a scientist by any means, but I don't believe consciousness is exempt to that rule. And I believe consciousness has some role in deciding what life forms we come back as, or choose to experience. I believe that we all consciously chose to have a human experience before we were born, perhaps because we were ready for it. Maybe that's why life is perceived as so difficult for humans - maybe we're new at this. We're generally not very astute or intuitive about these things as a species, we're struggling. Maybe in our past lives we were "lesser" animals/beings, starting out as simple cells, and choosing the next grandest experience we could understand from that perspective. This mimics the concept of evolution, whereby biology progresses by "choosing" changes in its own structure. If nature can make choices, something seemingly unintelligent and unaware, then why can't "we" after death?

So maybe after this experience (after death), we will get to choose to experience what life is like an another planet. This is obviously the long way to extraterrestrial contact, but it's still an option I believe. And it gives reason and hope to that big starry night sky, regardless of whether we'll get there in this lifetime or not. It's absurd to think that we'll ever personally visit another planet in our own solar system, let alone the next galaxy, in our lifetime. If "life" ended after one go, that would render the universe completely and utterly pointless, and nature doesn't do things for no reason. No one life is long enough to learn all the secrets of the universe, but an infinite life, expressed as many trillions of beings and lifetimes, obviously is.

And the primitive theological notion that a "god" capable of creating the reality we inhabit would create a universe as vast as ours just for earth, as a proving ground for mankind, is ridiculous. What a waste of space, you could do that in one galaxy. The universe is huge because it's intended to be huge, so we can explore it. It's natural, it's what sentient beings do. They learn, experience, explore and create in their environments. That's our purpose, and it's fine with me.

On that note I still hope we experience contact with another species of advanced (preferably) peaceful beings, I think it would be a healthy wake-up call for humanity to get our sh*t together. It's pretty hard to not think of our potential as a species when we're provided with great incentive for doing so. Hopefully we make it that far! Even though I believe in reincarnation I still feel some attachment to this planet and the humans that inhabit it, I'd like to see our civilization straighten-out and continue and not die in some blind catastrophic suicide made in ignorance.

Originally posted by Druscilla
even taking one second at each star would take longer than the age of the universe itself to explore the universe.

Millions of probes surveying solar systems in parallel may reduce the timescale to something more manageable

I get annoyed when people forget about all the other intelligent life forms that exist on earth, from beetles to birds to octopi and dogs, dolphins and apes. Look and observe at what is around us.

The planet is full of intelligent life beyond humans and most definitely the galaxy and universe is too.

Ask yourself the question, are humans THAT much extra intelligent? We may be intelligent in some ways but do we act smart?

If we were smart we wouldn't keep seeing things from a human centred perspective like most of the posters here. The universe and even the planet we live on doesn't revolve around us.

15000 years is a blip in terms of the universe history, even a million years is!

Anyway who believes we have the universe and it's laws all figured out is an idiot?

Don't believe me, then tell me what dark matter is? Stumped?
How about dark energy?
Do we exist as part of a multiverse?
Do we live in a holographic universe?
Is string theory a mathematical construct or actually something that physically exists?
Is our current description of space-time missing other factors?

These are HUGE gaping holes in our understanding folks, we arent even close to understanding some of these questions. Still think we definitively know the answer to the questions is 'time travel possible?' or 'can we travel faster than the speed of light?' or 'can we travel by wormholes around the galaxy?' ?

I don't think we can rule in or out any of these things.

Originally posted by windus
by accidents

There is nothing 'by accident' it all started as military and some went public, other not. Some could have been reverse engineered of 'something'

Deep down, we all know E.T.s are real and anyone who is aware of the numerous cases over the years also knows deep down, that there has been cases where humans have had encounters with crafts from another place, they are few and far between in the ufology scene, but they are there, the ones that truly can't be explained away.

The government also knows this and will keep hiding the answer until their agenda requires otherwise.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze

Originally posted by Druscilla


If you could travel to every single one of those 500 Billion stars instantaneously]

i may be wrong im no physicist but jumping from star to star instantaneously sounds like a good gasp on how to bend the space time continuum, again i havent studied much of this stuff so please drop some knowledge on me if u want

Interstellar travel may exist only in our imaginations and science fiction. Maybe it's not physically possible for beings of any sort to traverse the great gaps between stars.

I'm not sure what the point of the question is?

Well everyone pretty much knows there has to be life out there.They can get here using advanced tech we can't even dream of,yet our scientist can not look past there current crappy science to see that we will be able to do it given enough time.Combine that with the 1000's of years of sightings and testimony of seeing craft and strange beings,and what you get is there is something going on at the very least......

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
I would just like to put this idea out there for discussion.

What I would like to ask people to think about is this: if there is life out there, intelligent life, and you accept this to be true, then why would you think that there are no civilizations who have mastered inter-stellar travel?

There are star systems out in space far older than ours, there are planets orbiting those stars which are also very old. If you believe that there is life out there you must accept one of two things: Either there are civilistaions out there that are far far older and more advanced than ours. Or: We are the most advanced civilization in the universe!

Anyways, all I'm saying is this: If you believe there is intelligent life out there then why is it too much to accept that they may have visited us, and maybe still are?

edit on 2-6-2012 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

I have no problem with accepting that we are not the only melon in the galactic garden.
Where things get muddied for me is whether or not we 'belong" to the someone else.
Most people don't want to think about what comes after the notion of yes there are super advanced ET's
The real question is how human kind fits or factors into the "core story". Probably don't want to take that red pill.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


A good post, seabhac-rua, with some very intelligent responses by most posters.

I look at this issue slightly differently, and probably more controversially, compared with most.

I think on earth we have our own concept of time, I would go as far as to say that time as we experience it is unique to us, here on earth.

It may be that in cosmological terms, humanoid intelligent life has ( And will..) only exist for the comparative "blink of an eye " here on earth, and if interstellar travel is possible ( I,m not convinced it will be ...) then the chances of intelligent extraterrestrials finding us during our very short reign on earth, must be very small indeed....

This is all without taking into account that I think true cosmological voyagers would need to travel at many times the speed of light to be a realistic proposition, and I feel there would be insurmountable problems to overcome.....even if we could work out the theory behind light speed travel.

Just my thoughts......

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
Maybe it's not physically possible for beings of any sort to traverse the great gaps between stars

It may be eminently possible; paraphrasing one of my previous posts:

According to M-theory our Universe is a multi-dimensional membrane that exists within a higher dimensional space called The Bulk

All particles according to this theory are open-ended strings where the two ends of the string are attached to the membrane that is our Universe

However gravitons are thought to be closed strings which drift through our Universe and never become attached to the membrane

Hence gravity is a very weak force because so many gravitons just drift away into The Bulk

Any such gravitons which immediately re-engage with our Universe, bending our spacetime, would appear to travel faster than light

According to Einstein gravity is a function of mass, charge and pressure

The pressure applied by The Bulk to our membrane Universe translates to tension within our Universe that causes inflation

That pressure also limits the size of our Universe within The Bulk and any further expansion is entirely encapsulated within our Universe

So a distance measured in light years within our Universe may be measured in millimetres within The Bulk

All of this is neatly explained by Brian Greene is his new book The Hidden Reality

Imagine a technology that transforms the open-ended strings; the particles which comprise your body and your spaceship, into closed strings

Now you can detach yourself from our membrane Universe and travel into The Bulk where distances between stars may be measured in millimetres

So you move a few millimetres to the right in The Bulk then re-attach yourself to the membrane and, hey presto, you have reached the next solar system within seconds

reply to post by greybeard1


Bingo. Good point. I was wondering why that person's post received so many stars. Kind of a close minded answer. We've discovered lots of exo-planets, and we haven't been there. The methods we use to discover things will always grow in a more efficient manner.

reply to post by Druscilla


I don't understand your post, what do we not know about the Milky Way galaxy currently? You are contradicting yourself in your posts because you already know how many stars are in the Milky Way galaxy but yet we still need to fly in space ships and survey it?

I have no doubt this planet has been visited for a very long time. Within the past 50 years we have developed technology which is now finding possible planets that could support life. Even a near by civilization only a thousand years ahead of us (let alone millions) will most definitely know we are here. I would assume they would have a system of detecting hot spots of the most probable areas of the galaxy that would almost grantee life and I bet they certainly do not use telescopes or chemical rockets. For me it is a given.
The work of the governments to make it a joke subject in the minds of the masses has worked very well. Hence why even the best recorded sightings by the most respectable people are ignored.