Why did we need to waste money on NIST investigation ?

Originally posted by exponent

Originally posted by kidtwist
I dont post anything from the perp 'truther' websites that your colleague mentioned. I post factual evidence from serious websites. But depends what you actual definition of a conspiracy website is?

You quote cluesforum. The site that says that victims of 911 were faked. You endorse these beliefs.

In no way do you post 'factual evidence' from 'serious websites'. You post fantasy evidence from sites that literally claim there are no space stations, no satellites, and that all space travel is faked.

QED.

Again, that is a matter of opinion, depends on what eveyone's definition of a conspiracy website is. You're buddy Goodoldave keeps referring to 'fool conspiracy websites' so he obvious has defined in his own mind what he feels these fool conspiracy websites are, and his definition, your definition, and my definition will all vary.

There is no official 'fool conspiracy websites', it's all down to personal taste and personal belief. You should know this if you are a free thinker, and you should not force your ideas and opinions on others, otherwise that is considered preaching, Mr. Preacherman!

You post on ATS, where there are people that believe in UFOs, Aliens, and "no space stations, no satellites, and that all space travel is faked" as you mention in your comment about cluesforum, but that does not mean you or I are interested in those things, or believe in those things, same goes for the views of some members on other conspiracy websites.

So just because a specific website like cluesforum.info has other views on other things, it does not make their views on 9/11 invalid becasue of that. It's really silly and narrow-minded to think that if other people believe in alternative things like you have mentioned, then their views on 9/11 are invalid. That is just plain stupid.

You used to believe in santa claus, it doesn't mean anyone should think you're bat crazy for beliving the 9/11 OS fairytale that was on tv.

Originally posted by kidtwist

There is no official 'fool conspiracy websites',

Loose change is the official fool conspiracy website.

Cluesform is the official idiot conspiracy website.

Everybody knows that ....Silly boy.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

All right, we both know you're making this up.

I'm sorry I don't understand what am I making up? That 9/11 Commission and NIST were controlled by White House insiders? If this is what you mean then you are somewhat incorrect...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
When the executive director of 9/11 Commission is also happens to be one of Condoleezza Rice's closest advisers “but in many ways he is Rice's intellectual soul mate”

Prior to 9/11 ---

Zelikow and Rice worked together on the National Security Council staff in the administration of George H.W. Bush, beginning on the same day in 1989 and leaving within 24 hours of each other in 1991. They then co-wrote "Germany Unified and Europe Transformed: A Study in Statecraft," an academic book on U.S. policy during the tumultuous period of German reunification.

And once the Commission was officially finished-----

Zelikow was a consultant to Rice when she returned to Washington as President Bush's national security adviser, helping her restructure the NSC staff, though he did not join the administration at the time. At Rice's request, Zelikow was the primary writer of the administration's post-Sept. 11 national security strategy, which first outlined the intellectual rationale for preemptive war as a key tool in U.S. foreign policy.

NIST's investigation progress had to go through the U.S. Department of Commerce. And it just so happened that U.S. Department of Commerce Secretary is Donald L. Evans and he just happens to be the same person described below... :

He was there, in the cockpit, on the Sunday afternoon in the mid-1970's when George W. Bush last took a plane into the air, steered a wobbly and uncertain course over Midland, Tex., nearly bungled the landing and seemed to realize that his high-flying days were forever past.
He was there, too, on the morning in the mid-1980's when Mr. Bush woke up with a hangover and a pang of regret and decided never to touch alcohol again.
On the night before the Iowa caucuses in late January, he distracted Mr. Bush with fine cigars and idle banter. And a week later, as the first exit polls from New Hampshire were about to come in, he and his wife were the only ones other than the Texas governor's immediate family who sat with him in his hotel suite, helping him relax.
Donald L. Evans, it seems, has almost always been present at the pivotal junctures in Mr. Bush's life, an important witness to the evolution of both the man and the candidate and an integral part of his political campaigns, especially the current one.

In the case of both the 9/11 commission and NIST, they didn't close themselves off in a side room and make up the "official story" as you call it. They asked many, many witnesses from FAA officials to foreign intelligence agencies to even William Rodriguez

From your favorite damn fool conspiracy website 911Myths,com
Controllers' 9/11 Tape Destroyed, Report Says

FAA destroyed tapes from 9/11 but that okay because they said nothing too important was on them anyway. So what if every other agency prefer audio and written statements from a crime investigations?
The second manager had to keep his word because that's just the good man he is. A man of his word! Besides the manager payed for his actions.

The FAA yesterday said it had taken disciplinary action against the employee who destroyed the tape. That manager, identified by a source familiar with the investigation as Kevin Delaney, was last week given a 20-day suspension without pay.

According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day. The second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002.

Only a conspiracy theorist would find it strange that the manager “crushes the cassette recording in his hand, shreds the tape, and drops the pieces into different trashcans”

But months after the recording, the tape was never turned over to the FBI and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans, the report said

reply to post by GoodOlDave

"The destruction of evidence in the Government's possession, in this case an audiotape -- particularly during times of national crisis -- has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public," the report says. "We do not ascribe motivations to the managers in this case of attempting to cover-up, and we have no indication there was anything on the tape that would lead anyone to conclude that they had something to hide or that the controllers did not properly carry out their duties on September 11. The actions of these managers . . . nonetheless, do little to dispel such appearances."

How do they know that they had nothing to hide?

With that said.. I didn't make anything up, I used plain old logic which led me to believe that NIST and 9/11 Commission would not print anything without approval for the White House.

William Rodriguez

I never cared what Rodriguez said or did, and I still don't care.

Barry Jennings head "explosions" as he was trying to leave the building, which you can't NOT know was when wreckage from the north tower crashed into it, and the proverbial "witnesses heard explosions six sexonds before WTC 7 collapsed"

I wasn’t only talking about Jennings and Hess, a lot of people reported explosions. I think you still remember the video of firemen saying there were three secondary explosions in the lobby and then the tower collapsed.

Richard Gage has the funding, the research material, the pool of expertise, the funding, and the media outlet to do his own investigation that reverse engineers exactly how these controlled demlitions were used to destroy the buildings, and he refuses to do it.

If you were truly interested in truth you would know that they already proved that more than jet fuel and damage from the planes were used. I don't know if it was thermite or explosives, but it has been proved that thermite can cut steel. So please stop playing dumb you know as well as anybody that you are on the wrong side of history. If not for people like you maybe Americans wouldn’t look stupid to the rest of the world.

Originally posted by maxella1



FAA destroyed tapes from 9/11

and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans,

Your statement and the evidence don't match up.

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by maxella1



FAA destroyed tapes from 9/11

and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans,

Your statement and the evidence don't match up.

So they didn't destroy the tapes?

Originally posted by maxella1

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by maxella1



FAA destroyed tapes from 9/11

and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans,

Your statement and the evidence don't match up.

So they didn't destroy the tapes?

You don't have a clue about what you are attempting to imply here. The tapes were merely the controller recollections of events in which they were involved. The Controler's Union objected to the fact that they were forced to make these tapes from memory when they should have been allowed to listen to the audio tapes to refresh their memory of what happened. The Supervisor who destroyed them was simply trying to avoid problems with the Union as they were a direct violation of FAA/Union agreements. The controllers eventually gave accounts of their actions to investigators after listening to the audio tapes and consulting with an Attorney, so nothing was hidden and nothing was lost. This is simply your delusion that there was something nefarious about this. No one was trying to hide anything and nothing valuable was lost. It is a NON-ISSUE that amounts to nothing and is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by maxella1

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by maxella1



FAA destroyed tapes from 9/11

and another FAA manager decided on his own to destroy the tape, crushing it with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into several trash cans,

Your statement and the evidence don't match up.

So they didn't destroy the tapes?

You don't have a clue about what you are attempting to imply here. The tapes were merely the controller recollections of events in which they were involved. The Controler's Union objected to the fact that they were forced to make these tapes from memory when they should have been allowed to listen to the audio tapes to refresh their memory of what happened. The Supervisor who destroyed them was simply trying to avoid problems with the Union as they were a direct violation of FAA/Union agreements. The controllers eventually gave accounts of their actions to investigators after listening to the audio tapes and consulting with an Attorney, so nothing was hidden and nothing was lost. This is simply your delusion that there was something nefarious about this. No one was trying to hide anything and nothing valuable was lost. It is a NON-ISSUE that amounts to nothing and is irrelevant.

Yeah they had nothing to hide.
And Bambi is my little sister.

FAA Manager Mangled, Cut, Destroyed 9/11 Tapes

According to the report given to the 9/11 Commission by Department of Transportation Inspector General Kenneth Mead, the audiotape was crushed in the hand of the unnamed FAA employee, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building. Despite the fact that the quality assurance officer had been told to retain all records pertaining to 9/11

They were told not to destroy the tapes, but they did anyway. If they had nothing to hide the tape would still exist. And by now it probably would be used at new employee orientation for training.
People that have nothing to hide DO NOT crush in with his hande, then cut into small pieces and tossed into different trash cans around the ARTCC building.

reply to post by maxella1


So, it was some low level supervisor at the ARTCC who was in one the conspiracy, huh? What do you suppose he could have been hiding that's not on the audio tapes already.. You do realize that ALL of the audio tapes have been released and are available within the public domain, don't you? (likely not)... Since you're accusing them of hiding something why don't you listen to the tapes and determine what it was. You're on a quest for the truth, aren't you? Too lazy? Not knowledgeable enough to understand what you hear?

BTW, you need a new avatar. One without the diagonal red stripe is more appropriate.

Originally posted by kidtwist
Again, that is a matter of opinion, depends on what eveyone's definition of a conspiracy website is. You're buddy Goodoldave keeps referring to 'fool conspiracy websites' so he obvious has defined in his own mind what he feels these fool conspiracy websites are, and his definition, your definition, and my definition will all vary.

Right, but my definition is not based on my personal feelings. My definition is based on which websites promote insane theories based on no actual knowledge.

Cluesforum claims that there are faked victims, that there was live TV fakery, that there is no space shuttle or ISS.

These are claims endorsed by the person who runs it. You need no personal feelings to be able to dismiss this website as paranoid delusions.

There is no official 'fool conspiracy websites', it's all down to personal taste and personal belief. You should know this if you are a free thinker, and you should not force your ideas and opinions on others, otherwise that is considered preaching, Mr. Preacherman!

I'm definitely going to preach about some things. For example, nobody can reasonably say creationism is correct and evolution is not. Therefore I will happily preach that creationism is a scam, a false story told for the criminally gullible in order to sell textbooks or DVDs or museum tickets.

The exact same exists within the truth movement. The vast majority of people producing media also sell it, t-shirts, caps etc. People who say 'planes were CGI' are clearly idiots, and I will happily preach that they are idiots and that they're being scammed too.

You post on ATS, where there are people that believe in UFOs, Aliens, and "no space stations, no satellites, and that all space travel is faked" as you mention in your comment about cluesforum, but that does not mean you or I are interested in those things, or believe in those things, same goes for the views of some members on other conspiracy websites.

You post information from cluesforum, you call cluesforum a "serious site". ATS does not endorse these beliefs as part of the management. Cluesforum does and will ban you if you raise any significant issues.

The difference is marked.

You used to believe in santa claus, it doesn't mean anyone should think you're bat crazy for beliving the 9/11 OS fairytale that was on tv.

edit on 10-6-2012 by kidtwist because: spelling

I never believed in santa claus from the moment I could think. That's what happens when you're raised by atheist parents.

Originally posted by maxella1

With that said.. I didn't make anything up, I used plain old logic which led me to believe that NIST and 9/11 Commission would not print anything without approval for the White House.

Sorry, but I'm immune to bait and switch. You said there were coverups in the NIST report and the 9/11 commission report. This is the FAA recordings, which a) is a separate agency from the 9/11 commission and NIST b) was destroyed b) was a snafu that was already explained by others here so I won't repeat it here, c) at best, only shows monumental incompetence rather than any "sinister secret plot to take over the world", which is what I've been saying from day one.

I wasn’t only talking about Jennings and Hess, a lot of people reported explosions. I think you still remember the video of firemen saying there were three secondary explosions in the lobby and then the tower collapsed.

Come now, we both know you're getting that from Richard Gage, and we both know this was referring to the "mysterious explosions six seconds before the collapse" whcih just happens to be the exact same time that the Penthouse collapsed into the interior of the building. Gage all but admits this was what causing the noise himself because he takes pains to snip out the Penthouse collapse from every video he uses to present his case. Why is is you take offense at the FAA destroying tapes and yet you're willing to give Gage a pass at deliberately tampering with his evidence...which I shouldn't need to point out is a heck of a far sight worse.

If you were truly interested in truth you would know that they already proved that more than jet fuel and damage from the planes were used. I don't know if it was thermite or explosives, but it has been proved that thermite can cut steel. So please stop playing dumb you know as well as anybody that you are on the wrong side of history. If not for people like you maybe Americans wouldn’t look stupid to the rest of the world.

Oooooh, naughty naughty! Gage has not proved any such thing and I know this because I looked at his material. Literally all he does is present the same fake information you're doing now, with...

-"NY firefighters had foreknowledge of the collapse of WTC 7", and by now you can't NOT know of the firefighter testimony that the fires were out of control and were causing massive structural deformation

-"traces of explosives found in the debris", which by now you can't NOT know refers to the Harrit report, and by now you can't NOT know subsequent tests confirmed this was paint

-"Sounds of explosions from WTC 7 six seconds before the collapse", which by now you can't NOT know was from the sounds of the Penthouse collapsing into the interior of WTC 7

-and right now, if you look on their website, you'll see they're milking Barry Jennings "explosion in WTC 7" bit while ignoring this was when the north tower collapsed all over again.

I will agree that there are times that Americans look stupid. If you look at my signature you'll see the observation there are people going around insisting "9/11 was staged" who are indeed making us look like idiots. All over the world, Islamic fundamentalists are causing havok from blowing up subways in London to attacking hotels in India to bombing weddings in Jordan to rioting over cartoons of Mohammed in Danish newspapers to even hijacking the occasional cruise ship in Italy. Plus, you can't NOT know of all the *other* plane hijackings islamic fundamentalists have committed throughout the decades. To openly ignore one of the most historically blatant trouble makers and insist it's really some sinister secret plot to take over the world is being horribly uninformed and ignorant.

The right to be free also includes the right to behave like a complete fool, I suppose.

Hillary Clinton - 'We Created Al Qaeda'

the-tap.blogspot.ca...
on video at that
fool all right

Originally posted by Danbones

Hillary Clinton - 'We Created Al Qaeda'

the-tap.blogspot.ca...
on video at that
fool all right

edit on 11-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

She never mentions Al Qaeda. Not even Once.

Do you have a video where she sez "We Created Al Qaeda"

Originally posted by waypastvne

Originally posted by kidtwist

There is no official 'fool conspiracy websites',

Loose change is the official fool conspiracy website.

Cluesform is the official idiot conspiracy website.

Everybody knows that ....Silly boy.

Again, there is no official 'fool conspiracy websites' please do provide a link that states they are so called 'official' fool websites!

Just because you say so doesn't make it right, I think you need to have a word with your ego!

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by DrEugeneFixer

Originally posted by waypastvne
reply to post by kidtwist

 

Every thing you post comes from conspiracy websites. You quote them. You link to them. You post pictures from them.


You're fooling no one.

How is it going with that protocol evidence. Have you found a military intercept of a private aircraft over us airspace yet ?

edit on 9-6-2012 by waypastvne because: (no reason given)

Seconded.

I'd like to see your list of "perp-created" 9/11 websites. along with any evidence you have to support that thesis.

Thirded. Whether the truthers realize it or not they ARE quoting the material coming from those damned foo conspiracy web sites. "No fires in WTC 7" came from Richard Gage, Pull it is lingo for controlled dmeolitions" came from Alex Jones, "and so on and so forth. This baloney about "does the order still stand really means stand down order" didn't just spontaneously appear into the truthers heads. Someone specifically created it and passed it around. Just becuase it's passed through several associations between the truthers and those con artists it doesn't mean the truthers are being any less gullible in quoting them.

Again, you're generalising, there is no one shoe fits all when defining 9/11 researchers. Most people have never even been onj any of these sites or commented on some of these things you mention, so you cannot put everyone in the same bracket.

I thought you might have a little more intelligence than you have shown lately, but the more you post the more it becomes evident that you have a limited train of thought.

Originally posted by exponent

Right, but my definition is not based on my personal feelings. My definition is based on which websites promote insane theories based on no actual knowledge.

Cluesforum claims that there are faked victims, that there was live TV fakery, that there is no space shuttle or ISS.

These are claims endorsed by the person who runs it. You need no personal feelings to be able to dismiss this website as paranoid delusions.

Well you are entitled to your opinion of what you think is an insane theory, I personally think the OS is an insane theory that was sold people, as do many others, and I think you're here to uphold the OS, and if that is the case then nothing you say is with merit.

What has a member of another forums views on the ISS have to do with 9/11, it doesn't! There are peopel here on ATS that believe in reptilians, I don't, and that has nothing to do with me or 9/11 either. By your logic that means anything you or anyone on ATS says is insane because some people in other parts of this website believe in reptillians! You really dont know how dumb some of your replies are!

You lot will discredit anyone or any website that gets close to the real truth of 9/11, that is your job, to ridicule people close to the truth, to spread disinfo, and uphold the OS. Anyone who posts here can spot you lot a mile away, but no matter how much crap you spout, it wont put people off, so nice try, but you'll have to try harder than that!

I'm definitely going to preach about some things. For example, nobody can reasonably say creationism is correct and evolution is not. Therefore I will happily preach that creationism is a scam, a false story told for the criminally gullible in order to sell textbooks or DVDs or museum tickets.

The exact same exists within the truth movement. The vast majority of people producing media also sell it, t-shirts, caps etc. People who say 'planes were CGI' are clearly idiots, and I will happily preach that they are idiots and that they're being scammed too.

What has creationism got to do with 9/11, as per, you always go off topic to try and prove a weak point.

If you are against people making money from websites etc, why are you on ATS? You must be aware that it makes money from its website, and makes money from the 9/11 traffic it gets. You are a hypocrite!

You post information from cluesforum, you call cluesforum a "serious site". ATS does not endorse these beliefs as part of the management. Cluesforum does and will ban you if you raise any significant issues.

The difference is marked.

I've never posted on clues forum, again, you fail to get your facts right, I've been there and use some of it for my research, because they are bang on the money on a lot of things, but I've never joined that site. You're entitled to your opinion, and others are entitled to theirs, no all websites are to everyone's liking. You post a lot of disinfo on ATS, and people get banned quite easily here, so there is not that much difference between here and cluesforum if we are to go by your logic. Also, cluesforum does not monetise their website, ATS does, what does that say about cluesforum eh?!

I never believed in santa claus from the moment I could think. That's what happens when you're raised by atheist parents.

Neither did anyone else believe in santa claus from the moment they could think, but you did like everyone else up until the point you had enough sense to reralise it was just a myth. My parents were aetheist, santa claus has nothing to do with religion, the date xmas falls on is a holy date, but it means jack all to non-religious types, where as xmas and santa claus are very much upheld my aethists.

I see you replied to this comment that was meant for goodoldave, how many times have you been caught with your pants down replying to stuff you thought was for you, I've lost count of the amount tof different accounts you have, and dont think we're stupid, we can tell!

Originally posted by Danbones

Hillary Clinton - 'We Created Al Qaeda'

the-tap.blogspot.ca...
on video at that
fool all right

edit on 11-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

She never mentions Al Qaeda. Not even Once.

Do you have a video where she sez "We Created Al Qaeda"

Originally posted by waypastvne
with sub titles in various languages
" we created the problem we are now fighting"
If you can't string together the conversation I can't help you

you might also read Zbigniew Bryzynski's account of creating the Taliban
though its a book..you might find it helpfull

heres the wiki short version

Brzezinski, known for his hardline policies on the Soviet Union, initiated in 1979 a campaign supporting mujaheddin in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which were run by Pakistani security services with financial support from the Central Intelligence Agency and Britain's MI6.[32] This policy had the explicit aim of promoting radical Islamist and anti-Communist forces. Bob Gates, in his book Out Of The Shadows, wrote that Pakistan had been pressuring the United States for arms to aid the rebels for years

en.wikipedia.org...

do YOU have proof that bin laden did 911?

no you don't...so don't be too nit picky on my references just to avoid facing the truth

edit on 11-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

reply to post by GoodOlDave


It always seems like you miss nearly everything I wrote. Oh well. Keep on clicking...

Originally posted by Reheat
reply to post by maxella1

 

So, it was some low level supervisor at the ARTCC who was in one the conspiracy, huh? What do you suppose he could have been hiding that's not on the audio tapes already.. You do realize that ALL of the audio tapes have been released and are available within the public domain, don't you? (likely not)... Since you're accusing them of hiding something why don't you listen to the tapes and determine what it was. You're on a quest for the truth, aren't you? Too lazy? Not knowledgeable enough to understand what you hear?

BTW, you need a new avatar. One without the diagonal red stripe is more appropriate.

All the tapes were released hah? Even the one he crushed, cut, and dumped into different trash cans?
What's wrong with you? How do people likeYou survive in the real world? How many times did you get
Mugged in your life?

Originally posted by kidtwist

Again, you're generalising, there is no one shoe fits all when defining 9/11 researchers. Most people have never even been onj any of these sites or commented on some of these things you mention, so you cannot put everyone in the same bracket.

Without realizing it, you just proved literally every single thing I've been saying since day one.

When, for example, we see a murder victim with a gunshot wound, and the recovered bullet is linked to a specific gun, and the gun has fingerprints traced to a specific suspect with a criminal record of shooting other people, we look at the collection of evidence and we see it all point to a specific scenario- the suspect with a criminal record shot the victim with a gun....but then you truthers come along and make up your own evidence to suit your own theories. This person insists the gun was planted with manufactured fingerprints. That person insists the murder victim was really stabbed.. Yet another person insists it's a fake murder and noone actually died at all. A whole other person acknowledges the criminal shot the victim but the police knowingly allowed it to happen. What difference does it make that there are five hundred different competing theories floating around? You're all still manufacturing whatever you need to do in order to steer the evidence from pointing to the culprit the evidence points to and have it poitn to whatever suspect it is that catches your fancy.

So in the end, what the heck difference if this web site is claiming there were controlled demolitions planted by the gov't and that web site is saying there were nukes in the basement planted by the Jews? Then entire reason why the truthers are all but getting into fistfights with each other over what the REAL conspiracy is supposed to be is because you all have your individual ax to grind nso you're all tryign to steer the evidence away from pointign to a specific culprit and have it point to whatever culprit you yourselves want it to point to.

Do I really need to point out all the OTHER plane hijackings Islamic fundamentalists have pulled throughout the decades? I mean, really?

I thought you might have a little more intelligence than you have shown lately, but the more you post the more it becomes evident that you have a limited train of thought.

This, coming from someone who genuinely thinks it's possible to rig an occupied skyscraper with secret explosives withotu any of the occupants noticing. It's like saying someone can put a refrigerator in your living room without your noticing it. It isn't "a limited train of thought"; it's taking something really, really idiotic sounding with a grain of salt.