Before The Big Bang

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

The form of energy that any energy is at any given point in time is like a standing domino ready to be knocked over as it leans into the next domino which is the next form it will be transferred into from photons to electrical human thought. There is no way around this effect not even in the mind of a theoretical physicist's thinking in terms of quantum physics.

Actually that's where you're completely wrong. It's not like a "domino effect", it's more like the addition of probabilities or the addition of wave forms as the dominoes contact each other. This is established by the fact that fundamental particles such as photons and electrons can produce interference patterns, that is conclusive proof that reality is based on particle-waves which have no certain position, their position is 'smeared' out in a cloud of probable positions. When you try to observe their exact position you collapse the wave function, and this is not something you can debate with me, because this is the very basics of quantum mechanics and there are countless experiments and observations which prove this to be a fact of reality.

Trust me, scientists didn't like this stuff either when they first learnt about it because it meant the system of reality was not a completely deterministic mechanical device which could be predicted at every single state, including future states (being able to predict the future with math simply violates too many conditions of reality)... but they had not other choice because the data cannot be denied... if it wasn't for quantum mechanics your computer wouldn't even work because semi-conductors wouldn't work. Even the electrons in atoms are not in one position, they are in a standing wave state around the nucleus at discrete energy levels... if this weren't true then the known elements would not have their signature photon emission spectrum associated with the energy levels in each atom measured when the electrons undergo a "quantum leap" between each energy level and release photons.

You can't introduce new energy into the Universe nor destroy existing energy, exiting it somehow

Yes you can actually create and destroy energy, even Hawking now believes the energy for the Universe came from 'nothing'. If you don't believe that then I would like to hear you idea of where it came from... let me guess, it was here all along right?

Okay, you win. Whatever you want to believe. Have a nice life.

If you studied every nuanced move i made throughout my whole life.... could you predict when i would scratch my butt? ( even if i just wanted to for fun,, didnt even have an itch)

reply to post by spy66

Why is such a space a impossibility?

I would really like to know that.

Well it just seems completely illogical to me. How can anything ever happen in a space with no time? That's even more absurd than trying to suggest things will happen (fluctuations) in empty space-time. Time is something which I believe is so fundamental to reality that is simply can't be removed from the equation, lest you decompile reality all together.

reply to post by ImaFungi

If you studied every nuanced move i made throughout my whole life.... could you predict when i would scratch my butt? ( even if i just wanted to for fun,, didnt even have an itch)

He would argue that it's possible because your brain activity is completely deterministic, derived from past events and set to "fall like dominoes" into future events without any if's or but's about it.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

Why is such a space a impossibility?

I would really like to know that.

Well it just seems completely illogical to me. How can anything ever happen in a space with no time? That's even more absurd than trying to suggest things will happen (fluctuations) in empty space-time. Time is something which I believe is so fundamental to reality that is simply can't be removed from the equation, lest you decompile reality all together.

Well it just seems completely illogical to me. How can anything ever happen in a space with no time?

No. its doesn't seam illogical to you. Because in reality that is the true constant "infinite". And you know it.

What scares you is the truth. So instead of going all the way, you stop a bit short.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Technically, you can have a space with no temporal dimension. But it's really just a mathematical model rather than any sort of conceivable scenario. Just like having multiple temporal dimensions.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

Why is such a space a impossibility?

I would really like to know that.

Well it just seems completely illogical to me. How can anything ever happen in a space with no time? That's even more absurd than trying to suggest things will happen (fluctuations) in empty space-time. Time is something which I believe is so fundamental to reality that is simply can't be removed from the equation, lest you decompile reality all together.

well time is the problem,,...,.,,.,..,,.,.,.,..,., and how to measure it....... if the universe began at a single point "in time", the beginning of time, all the energy in the universe can be seen as a single, related event, sharing that moment of birth,,,, now i guess this is where Einstein's time is relative stuff comes in, because what do we use to measure the time passing for us on our planet,, what do we use to measure the time passing for a star,, or a planet rotating 5 x faster then our planet, or a galaxy?

in an infinite empty space time,,,,,, time wouldn't matter..... even if there were fluctuations of the space,, what would the passing of 5 minutes or 5 millennium matter to infinite empty space? theres nothing to gauge the meaning of rate of change of time,,,,

reply to post by ImaFungi


That would take a mix of science and art to predict the only outcome possible, if and when you did. At this point just the mere fact you are alive right now during the entire timeline of the Universe proves what I claim is correct given the astronomical odds against it if randomness had any credibility. that alone should be enough for you to embrace my claims that predetermination is factual. Why are we alive right now in the timeline of the entire Universe? Because to us we always seem to be alive due to the fact we have no consciousness between death and birth, and therefore that time seems instantaneous from our perspective if we could remember our previous life. Being the circumstance we can't remember the time we lived our lives during our previous existence in the life cycle of the Universe it seems as if this life is the only time we have ever been alive.

That should be enough to convince what I am saying is true, but the fact that every event that occurs in the entire lifespan of the Universe is tied in a long line of falling dominoes, so to speak, to the singularity of the Big Bang, and the law of the conservation of energy, making it a fundamental fact any multiple options in outcomes of other outcomes is impossible compounds the validity of predetermination. Only the science and art of attempting to predict the actual outcome remains which is easily confused with the science and art of thinking the same formulas present multiple possible outcomes when one "believes" in the mythology of randomizes. I think that is the confusion you and others are having when evaluating randomness of the Universe vs. predetermination of the Universe. And note that predetermination does not hide behind a vale of nontransparent and hard to communicate in general terms to the public at large like randomness does, with the excuse, "Believe it even though only a handful of people on the entire planet can understand the math, and if you are not one of those people, you have to accept the entire theory of randomness on faith."

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

If you studied every nuanced move i made throughout my whole life.... could you predict when i would scratch my butt? ( even if i just wanted to for fun,, didnt even have an itch)

He would argue that it's possible because your brain activity is completely deterministic, derived from past events and set to "fall like dominoes" into future events without any if's or but's about it.

edit on 7-6-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

Very good! You're learning.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

Technically, you can have a space with no temporal dimension. But it's really just a mathematical model rather than any sort of conceivable scenario. Just like having multiple temporal dimensions.

Everything is limited in time, so nothing is infinite expect reputation of cycles like any algorithm can communicate.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


to me you are just saying,,, everything that happens happens.......

and i am saying some of those things that happen, are random,,,, meaning they could not be predicted..... i.e. an accurate plotting of the flight of a butterfly over the span of an hour ..

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

to me you are just saying,,, everything that happens happens.......

and i am saying some of those things that happen, are random,,,, meaning they could not be predicted..... i.e. an accurate plotting of the flight of a butterfly over the span of an hour ..

edit on 7-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

If we plot time backwards. Where would you find randomness?
You wouldn't find it anywhere in time or space. Because the universe we live in is a one time event. What you people are doing is inflating theory with nonsense.

If you choose to pick your nose or not is not randomness. Because you will only make once choice. Having a thought has nothing to do with randomness. A random thought has nothing to with physical reality. Only what you do.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

to me you are just saying,,, everything that happens happens.......

and i am saying some of those things that happen, are random,,,, meaning they could not be predicted..... i.e. an accurate plotting of the flight of a butterfly over the span of an hour ..

edit on 7-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

If we plot time backwards. Where would you find randomness?
You wouldn't find it anywhere in time or space. Because the universe we live in is a one time event. What you people are doing is inflating theory with nonsense.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

ok so if randomness doesnt exist,,,, your saying i am misinterpreting randomness,, as the lack of data for a cause? nothing is random because everything that happens, is caused by something to happen, so nothing is random? thats what your saying?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

to me you are just saying,,, everything that happens happens.......

and i am saying some of those things that happen, are random,,,, meaning they could not be predicted..... i.e. an accurate plotting of the flight of a butterfly over the span of an hour ..

edit on 7-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

If we plot time backwards. Where would you find randomness?
You wouldn't find it anywhere in time or space. Because the universe we live in is a one time event. What you people are doing is inflating theory with nonsense.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

ok so if randomness doesnt exist,,,, your saying i am misinterpreting randomness,, as the lack of data for a cause? nothing is random because everything that happens, is caused by something to happen, so nothing is random? thats what your saying?

Yes you are misinterpreting randomness.

There is nothing random in a physical expanding space.

What you will do tomorrow is already decided. You are the only one who dosent know yet.

reply to post by spy66


ok explain,,,, i thought it had something to do with probability,,,, i understand most if not all inanimate material in the universe is governed by laws,, which is pretty deterministicly, the revolution and rotation of planets......

but the points i were making were about how life exactly defies this....

by being able to perform unpredictable activities... if the universe or anything can not predict what will happen in a future given situation, how can that situation have been determined to happen ( besides the fact that it happened, which is hindsight is 20/20 only one outcome could have happened, duh)

your playing baseball,,,,, your in the outfield and ball is popped up towards you......... is the event that follows predictably deterministic? or your saying that no matter what happens,, if we were to go back in time and review the situation, we could slow down time and view every quantom interaction and a micronsecond before the event we were suppose to predict occurs, we will know what will happen? to me thats the same as knowing what happens as it happens.......

so ball is hit to you..... how can what will transpire next be predictable? you can run 5 steps to the right,, you can trip, you can pull down your pants, you can catch the ball, you can miss,, you can run home,, you can kill yourself,, you can fall asleep....

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by spy66

 

ok explain,,,, i thought it had something to do with probability,,,, i understand most if not all inanimate material in the universe is governed by laws,, which is pretty deterministicly, the revolution and rotation of planets......

but the points i were making were about how life exactly defies this....

by being able to perform unpredictable activities... if the universe or anything can not predict what will happen in a future given situation, how can that situation have been determined to happen ( besides the fact that it happened, which is hindsight is 20/20 only one outcome could have happened, duh)

your playing baseball,,,,, your in the outfield and ball is popped up towards you......... is the event that follows predictably deterministic? or your saying that no matter what happens,, if we were to go back in time and review the situation, we could slow down time and view every quantom interaction and a micronsecond before the event we were suppose to predict occurs, we will know what will happen? to me thats the same as knowing what happens as it happens.......

so ball is hit to you..... how can what will transpire next be predictable? you can run 5 steps to the right,, you can trip, you can pull down your pants, you can catch the ball, you can miss,, you can run home,, you can kill yourself,, you can fall asleep....

A probability problem is when when you try to predict a outcome. Its like gambling. Like trying to predict the future. A future you haven't seen yet. Probabilities are thoughts.

- Randomness are nothing but thoughts.

Random thoughts don't create changes. Only the actions you preform. You never make a random choice. You always make "A" choice before you act. The physical action is what matters. A thought alone changes nothing.
The actions you preform can not be altered because its already done. You can make a perfect straight line of all you actions. Because they fallow a specific timeline.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

to me you are just saying,,, everything that happens happens.......

and i am saying some of those things that happen, are random,,,, meaning they could not be predicted..... i.e. an accurate plotting of the flight of a butterfly over the span of an hour ..

edit on 7-6-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

If we plot time backwards. Where would you find randomness?
You wouldn't find it anywhere in time or space. Because the universe we live in is a one time event. What you people are doing is inflating theory with nonsense.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

ok so if randomness doesnt exist,,,, your saying i am misinterpreting randomness,, as the lack of data for a cause? nothing is random because everything that happens, is caused by something to happen, so nothing is random? thats what your saying?

You would have to introduce other influencing factors within this universe and that's impossible, like contaminating a controlled experiment.

Btw I wish there was a way to study a random universe theory vs a predetermined universe in such a way, but we can't.

I mean test, not study.

reply to post by spy66


Ok lets talk about predetermination this would naturally mean the cycle plays over and over because its predetermined.Now if that were true there had to be an original cause or an original big bang to get all this universe started.So if we move this to the next logical step something random had to occur to set this cycle in motion.and if it occurred once it could occur again.This in itself would prove predetermination is impossible.

Then there is the speed of light limit itself this proves there is no predetermination.If everything in the universe was predetermined to the universe all times would exist at the same time.Everything that has happened will happen has already occurred.Now if that were true we could actually see things moving backwards though time.we would see objects moving faster then the speed of light there wouldnt be the universal speed limit at all.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


why do you think the universe is predetermined to come out the way you know of it coming out so far,,, does its complexity, order and majesty surprise you? what do you think wished to determine the universe to in some point in time do what it is now doing? should i get the feeling that part of the reason you believe the determinacy, is because you believe in god, that matters are in its hands, and everything there fore, happens for a grand reason?

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by spy66

 

Ok lets talk about predetermination this would naturally mean the cycle plays over and over because its predetermined.Now if that were true there had to be an original cause or an original big bang to get all this universe started.So if we move this to the next logical step something random had to occur to set this cycle in motion.and if it occurred once it could occur again.This in itself would prove predetermination is impossible.

Then there is the speed of light limit itself this proves there is no predetermination.If everything in the universe was predetermined to the universe all times would exist at the same time.Everything that has happened will happen has already occurred.Now if that were true we could actually see things moving backwards though time.we would see objects moving faster then the speed of light there wouldnt be the universal speed limit at all.

Lets start at the beginning. Lets start out with physical infinite space. To day we know it formed finite existence.

>What does this tell you? Is it random that our finite existence came from the physical infinite space? No.

Physical infinite space takes up all physical space possible. That means it is stationary. NOT MOVING. Nothing is going on.

How many randoms do you have with a physical space that is not doing anything? You have non. As long as the physical infinite space is not doing anything, you dont have any other physical randomness.

Now, Is it random that it formed physical finite existence? No.

A physical infinite space can only form something that "is" totally different than it self. That can not be random, because there are no other possibilities present, if a physical infinite space takes up all space possible.

You can inflate randomness into all this. But what difference does that make? It wont change anything, you are on the timeline. If you like it or not.

Randomness is nothing but a thought, a idea. But you still have to face reality.

"What if'" don't change reality. What is, is the only reality.