Before The Big Bang

reply to post by PurpleChiten

That's not what he's stating sweetie.... You are misunderstanding what is going on.

Actually yes that's exactly what he is saying... you just don't want to believe that's what he is saying. He clearly states it in black and white... all the energy of the Universe spontaneously popped out of the quantum vacuum (exactly in the same way as Krauss describes it)... he knows there's no other way to explain it without adding God into the equation, and he is smart enough to know the energy hasn't been around for ever.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

That's not what he's stating sweetie.... You are misunderstanding what is going on.

Actually yes that's exactly what he is saying... you just don't want to believe that's what he is saying. He clearly states it in black and white... all the energy of the Universe spontaneously popped out of the quantum vacuum (exactly in the same way as Krauss describes it)... he knows there's no other way to explain it without adding God into the equation, and he is smart enough to know the energy hasn't been around for ever.

Listen again... he's saying that it's being transformed into matter and back into energy again, not popping in and out from nothingness. Please, pay attention and grasp the concepts if you want to discuss them, not just go on your own interpretation of things that you aren't equipped to comprehend.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

Listen again... he's saying that it's being transformed into matter and back into energy again, not popping in and out from nothingness.

What exactly is being transformed into matter and back into energy again? That is a very vague open ended statement that could be interpreted in many ways. It seems to me you are the one who has not watched the documentary properly, I have watched it several times thanks, and I know exactly what he is saying.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

Physical infinite space/void can not be a wave that fluctuate randomly. What would create the random wave in the void?

Nothing 'creates' the fluctuation, it's just how reality works... "when you have nothing you get something". The chances of absolutely nothing happening in infinite space-time is 0. It is the pure raw condition of reality to exhibit changes even under condition where one wouldn't expect to see changes. It can't be helped, because reality is not a perfect clockwork machine, it's a fuzzy wave of probability. Empty space-time bubbles and churns because it must, it's a mathematical certainty. I know this wont satisfy you but I can't state it any better than that.

edit on 7-6-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

When you dont understand or get stuck. Don't inflate your theory with something that does not make sense. Figure out a way to get around it. Because reality is not random fluctuations. Its just not understood.

Learn to read equations. A equation that represents the infinite is nothing but a single symbol. If you see a long equations and a = sign, you should know time is involved. And the equation has noting to do with the infinite. But a finite time-space.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

Listen again... he's saying that it's being transformed into matter and back into energy again, not popping in and out from nothingness.

What exactly is being transformed into matter and back into energy again? That is a very vague open ended statement that could be interpreted in many ways. It seems to me you are the one who has not watched the documentary properly, I have watched it several times thanks, and I know exactly what he is saying.

edit on 7-6-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

No, it has complete closure. The energy is transformed to a particle and the particle is transformed back to energy following the law of conservation.
I'm afraid you really don't know what's being said, probably due to the lack of knowledge in the field and not being able to follow the logic.
There is not enough room on the message board to teach you the concepts that you need in order to comprehend the principles being discussed and it is very clear that you do not have them.
I'm not attempting to be rude or condescending, just stating that you do not yet have those skills and are mistaken in what you think you are hearing.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

That's not what he's stating sweetie.... You are misunderstanding what is going on.

Actually yes that's exactly what he is saying... you just don't want to believe that's what he is saying. He clearly states it in black and white... all the energy of the Universe spontaneously popped out of the quantum vacuum (exactly in the same way as Krauss describes it)... he knows there's no other way to explain it without adding God into the equation, and he is smart enough to know the energy hasn't been around for ever.

Mr Krauss is wrong on at least one term, and that basically makes you have to rethink the whole thing he is saying. A vacuum is not a infinite empty space. A vacuum is either inside a chamber or a space with matter and time within it. If he is talking about a absolutely infinite and empty space he is totally wrong.

But it dosent seam to matter if he is wrong or not. Because people believe non the less. And i wonder why?

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

That's not what he's stating sweetie.... You are misunderstanding what is going on.

Actually yes that's exactly what he is saying... you just don't want to believe that's what he is saying. He clearly states it in black and white... all the energy of the Universe spontaneously popped out of the quantum vacuum (exactly in the same way as Krauss describes it)... he knows there's no other way to explain it without adding God into the equation, and he is smart enough to know the energy hasn't been around for ever.

Mr Krauss is wrong on at least one term, and that basically makes you have to rethink the whole thing he is saying. A vacuum is not a infinite empty space. A vacuum is either a chamber or a space with matter and time within it. If he is talking about a absolutely infinite and empty space he is totally wrong.

Agreed, and the young lady in question fails to comprehend that.

You seem to have more patience with her than I do, so I'll leave you to the explanations.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

No, it has complete closure. The energy is transformed to matter and the matter is transformed back to energy following the law of conservation.

Ahhh, and there it is, the statement which proves the so called smart guy as the man who knows not of what he speaks. If the Universe has "complete closure" in the way you imply, that would suggest all the energy in the Universe has always existed. Not to mention you are talking as if you don't understand energy and matter are the same thing. Hawking DOES NOT believe all the energy/matter has always existed in the Universe, he believes that it must have come from some where... you simply don't get energy/matter without having a reasonable explanation for where it came from. He essentially believes in a theory which states a singularity (infinitely dense point of energy) spontaneously appeared from the quantum vacuum - he makes that CRYSTAL CLEAR. From that point on he would argue the law of conservation is true for the most part, and that energy simply changes form and is conserved, but all of that breaks down when you move back to what he calls "the start of time". His theory tries to rationalize how the energy got here and posit where the energy came from, because any rational man will understand it had to come from some where. It cannot possibly be explained unless you embrace some type of theory which predicts the creation of energy... and he does not believe the energy was always here merely changing form.

I'm afraid you really don't know what's being said, probably due to the lack of knowledge in the field and not being able to follow the logic.

Yes I'm certain that must be the case, I simply "lack the knowledge". I'm sure you don't though.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

Ahhh, and there it is, the statement which proves the so called smart guy as the man who knows not of what he speaks. If the Universe has "complete closure" in the way you imply, that would suggest all the energy in the Universe has always existed.

::sigh:: The statement I made has complete closure sweetie. Again, you are interpreting based on your own desire of the outcome....
As for the rest of your post, it really isn't worth my time, I charge tuition for the type of assistance you require.

Do you even realize that you contradict yourself in your own post??

reply to post by spy66

But it dosent seam to matter if he is wrong or not. Because people believe non the less. And i wonder why?

Yes and you believe in your position unquestioningly, that infinite space-time cannot fluctuate, among other things. So stop being a hypocrite, we all have our own ideas.

BTW PurpleChiten, I am not a "young lady"... I am a man and my avatar is Eris, the God of discord.

Do you even realize that you contradict yourself in your own post??

]

Do you mind pointing out where all mighty master... it seems all you can do is thrown around petty attacks and belittle your opponents into submission, without actually knowing anything yourself.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

BTW PurpleChiten, I am not a "young lady"... I am a man and my avatar is Eris, the God of discord.

That is even more alarming than I originally thought then....
Go to your nearest University, register for classes, learn the basics, then you will have a better chance at comprehension.
I'm not working for free over my summer break...
Good day...

reply to post by PurpleChiten

That is even more alarming than I originally thought then....

I must say that is quite a sexist comment...

Go to your nearest University, register for classes, learn the basics, then you will have a better chance at comprehension.

Yeah I'm pretty sure it would be more beneficial if you took your own advice...

I'm not working for free over my summer break...
Good day...

Indeed, good day sir... I knew you couldn't make your point like a rational person using facts and logic. Your attempt to beat me down with petty attacks has failed and now all you can do is run away. Simply stunning...

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

The form of energy that any energy is at any given point in time is like a standing domino ready to be knocked over as it leans into the next domino which is the next form it will be transferred into from photons to electrical human thought. There is no way around this effect not even in the mind of a theoretical physicist's thinking in terms of quantum physics.

Actually that's where you're completely wrong. It's not like a "domino effect", it's more like the addition of probabilities or the addition of wave forms as the dominoes contact each other. This is established by the fact that fundamental particles such as photons and electrons can produce interference patterns, that is conclusive proof that reality is based on particle-waves which have no certain position, their position is 'smeared' out in a cloud of probable positions. When you try to observe their exact position you collapse the wave function, and this is not something you can debate with me, because this is the very basics of quantum mechanics and there are countless experiments and observations which prove this to be a fact of reality.

Trust me, scientists didn't like this stuff either when they first learnt about it because it meant the system of reality was not a completely deterministic mechanical device which could be predicted at every single state, including future states (being able to predict the future with math simply violates too many conditions of reality)... but they had not other choice because the data cannot be denied... if it wasn't for quantum mechanics your computer wouldn't even work because semi-conductors wouldn't work. Even the electrons in atoms are not in one position, they are in a standing wave state around the nucleus at discrete energy levels... if this weren't true then the known elements would not have their signature photon emission spectrum associated with the energy levels in each atom measured when the electrons undergo a "quantum leap" between each energy level and release photons.

You can't introduce new energy into the Universe nor destroy existing energy, exiting it somehow

Yes you can actually create and destroy energy, even Hawking now believes the energy for the Universe came from 'nothing'. If you don't believe that then I would like to hear you idea of where it came from... let me guess, it was here all along right?

Okay, you win. Whatever you want to believe. Have a nice life.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool

Okay, you win. Whatever you want to believe.

The difference between you and me is that the things I explained in that post are not things I "believe", they are things I "know". Catch you on the flip side...

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

But it dosent seam to matter if he is wrong or not. Because people believe non the less. And i wonder why?

Yes and you believe in your position unquestioningly, that infinite space-time cannot fluctuate, among other things. So stop being a hypocrite, we all have our own ideas.

BTW PurpleChiten, I am not a "young lady"... I am a man and my avatar is Eris, the God of discord.

Ok. New approuch.

What do you have if you take away time and random fluctuation?

Wouldn't you really really have a perfect infinite space?

Why wont you accept this infinite space? Isn't it a lot more purer than the one you have set you mind on.

reply to post by spy66

What do you have if you take away time and random fluctuation?

Wouldn't you really really have a perfect infinite space?

Why wont you accept this infinite space? Isn't it a lot more purer than the one you have set you mind on.

Well I would say you can't separate time and space because they are part of the same "fabric" of reality. Indeed a space without time would be completely static, but I see such a type of space as an impossibility.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

Okay, you win. Whatever you want to believe.

The difference between you and me is that the things I explained in that post are not things I "believe", they are things I "know". Catch you on the flip side...

That's right because this entire experience will repeat again in every detail probably trillions of years from now like it did "Before The Big Bang."

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by spy66

 

What do you have if you take away time and random fluctuation?

Wouldn't you really really have a perfect infinite space?

Why wont you accept this infinite space? Isn't it a lot more purer than the one you have set you mind on.
Well I would say you can't separate time and space because they are part of the same "fabric" of reality.

Indeed a space without time would be completely static, but I see such a type of space as an impossibility.

Why is such a space a impossibility?

I would really like to know that. Because to me its not impossible if you apply the right physical law.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool

That's right because this entire experience will repeat again in every detail probably trillions of years from now like it did "Before The Big Bang."

Hahaha, that was actually pretty damn funny dude.

At least now you'll get to make that joke an infinite amount of times for all of eternity...

On the flip side... oh man that's classic material.