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I just presented evidence of such transitional forms. If you're going to reject them I want to know on what grounds and what credentials you have in paleontology.
Again, what are your credentials in evaluating fossil evidence? Call me crazy but I think I'd go with the interpretation of someone who's spent decades studying this material and doing peer-reviewed science over the interpretation of someone who's presented no credentials in the field and who's clearly demonstrated that he has an axe to grind with anyone and anything who challenges his supernatural beliefs.
The fossil record can give us large amounts of knowledge. But there are many other ways that the fossil record is incomplete or misleading. Scientists must keep these problems in mind when they are reading the fossil record to come to conclusions about dinosaurs and their lifestyles...." -- read more here: animals.howstuffworks.com...
"...The fossil record, however, is quite incomplete. Here's one major reason why: Sediment has to cover an organism's remains in order for the long fossilization process to begin. Most organisms decompose before this can happen. Fossilization odds increase if the organism happened to exist in large numbers or lived in or around sediment. For example, trilobites, ancient marine arthropods, met both criteria, so they're rather common fossils. The Tyrannosaurus rex, however, is far rarer. It was large and land-dwelling, and as a top predator made up a far smaller percentage of the population." -- science.howstuffworks.com...
"..Body fossils Fossils of organisms' bodies are usually the most informative type of evidence. Fossilization is a rare event, and most fossils are destroyed by erosion or metamorphism before they can be observed. Hence the fossil record is very incomplete, increasingly so, further back in time. Despite this, they are often adequate to illustrate the broader patterns of life's history.[22] There are also biases in the fossil record: different environments are more favourable to the preservation of different types of organism or parts of organisms.[23] Further, only the parts of organisms that were already mineralised are usually preserved, such as the shells of molluscs. Since most animal species are soft--- rest here: en.wikipedia.org...[27]"
"...a known fossil or recent species, or higher taxonomic group, however primitive it might appear, is an actual ancestor of some other species or group, is an assumption scientifically unjustifiable, for science never can simply assume that which it has the responsibility to demonstrate. — It is the burden of each of us to demonstrate the reasonableness of any hypothesis we might care to erect about ancestral conditions, keeping in mind that we have no ancestor alive today, that in all probability such ancestors have been dead for many tens or millions of years, and that even in the fossil record they are not accessible to us." -- Gareth V. Nelson, "Origin and Diversification of Teleostean Fishes," Annals, New York Academy of Sciences, 1971, p. 27.
“the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another. Furthermore, species lasted for astoundingly long periods of time." -- The New Evolutionary Timetable, p. 95
Originally posted by radix
reply to post by edmc^2
OK - since you're the expert here take me to one of your "observable facts" - as evidence of evolution and let's see if it's really evolution.
OK, let's look at the DNA evidence for common descent. There are at least 4 lines of DNA evidence: DNA homology, DNA synteny, pseudogenes and endogenous retroviruses (ERV:s).
DNA homology means comparing the DNA sequences between different species, DNA synteny means comparing the order in which the genes are placed in the chromosomes. Pseudogenes are genes that have lost their function due to mutation but still remain in the genome and ERV:s are retroviruses that can infect a host organism and insert a DNA copy of their own genome into the host's genome. Like the pseudogenes, these viral DNA sequences have lost their function as viruses through mutation and have become a permanent part of the host's genome.
Each of these different lines of DNA evidence can independently be used to make phylogenetic diagrams which describe how closely related different organisms are to each other. Now that we have the complete genomes not only of simple organisms like bacteria and viruses but also of humans, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans we can make accurate phylogenetic trees of ourselves and our closest relatives. It turns out that these 4 different lines of evidence produce the exact same phylogenetic tree structure and also confirm the phylogenetic trees made from physiological and biochemical data.
To go into detail on one of these lines of DNA evidence, the pseuodgenes, I'd like to introduce you to Dr Dennis Venema. He's an associate professor of biology at Trinity Western University in Langley, British Columbia. He also happens to be an Evangelical Christian. He has written some great articles about the evidence for evolution at biologos.org that I can heartily recommend. Here's the 2-part article on pseudogenes as evidence for common descent:
LINK
Evidence for common descent is obviously also evidence for speciation as you can't have one without the other.
Fact is there are NO TRANSITIONAL forms from "Species" to "Species" - that is to be clear: from a Fish to Amphibian, from Amphibian to Reptile, from Reptile to Birds, to Mammals - to "Apes" to Man.
It doesn't take a paleontologist to spot a quackery or a nonsense. Simple common sense will do - google also helps.
But first do you know the reason why many of the findings made by evolutionist are based on assumptions?
The fossil record is incomplete and inaccurate.
That's why.
Before I go on reading this stuff - one question:
Which common descent is the study based on?
One with one "root" - Darwin's?
or
One with many "roots" - modern?
these discussions are not about facts. They are never about facts. You can give great arguments and sources and all that, but it won't change anything. They'll just filter it with their pre-conceived beliefs. People don't defend evolution so much for rational reasons, but for emotional ones. It's all for emotional reasons, and no one likes to feel like they've been believing in something that's not as solid as they'd like it to be for such a long time, especially when it makes them feel connected to the so-called 'greatest minds' of modern science.
these discussions are not about facts. They are never about facts. You can give great arguments and sources and all that, but it won't change anything. They'll just filter it with their pre-conceived beliefs. People don't defend their religious beliefs so much for rational reasons, but for emotional ones. It's all for emotional reasons, and no one likes to feel like they've been believing in something that's not as solid as they'd like it to be for such a long time, especially when it makes them feel connected to the so-called creator of the universe.
They will refuse to see the underlying assumptions that lack evidence, because they pretend that it's all fact, and really believe it's all fact and that everything is pretty much already known and we just need to fill a few gaps.
Originally posted by edmc^2
So where in the above statements did I say LIE or LYING?
Kindly please point it to me before I proceed.
Originally posted by vasaga
edmc^2, I admire your patience with these guys, but, these discussions are not about facts. They are never about facts. You can give great arguments and sources and all that, but it won't change anything. They'll just filter it with their pre-conceived beliefs. People don't defend evolution so much for rational reasons, but for emotional ones. It's all for emotional reasons, and no one likes to feel like they've been believing in something that's not as solid as they'd like it to be for such a long time, especially when it makes them feel connected to the so-called 'greatest minds' of modern science. Of course they will all say that what I'm saying is BS, but what else can be expected? Their state of mind is purely fueled by confirmation bias, and anything that falls outside of that will be dismissed as 'unscientific' or 'creationist garbage' or whatever other term they often use, even if it's a scientific source. They will refuse to see the underlying assumptions that lack evidence, because they pretend that it's all fact, and really believe it's all fact and that everything is pretty much already known and we just need to fill a few gaps. And because they believe they are being more rational and scientific than everyone else, they have no incentive to change their ways either.
these discussions are not about facts. They are never about facts. You can give great arguments and sources and all that, but it won't change anything.
People don't defend evolution so much for rational reasons, but for emotional ones. It's all for emotional reasons, and no one likes to feel like they've been believing in something that's not as solid as they'd like it to be for such a long time, especially when it makes them feel connected to the so-called 'greatest minds' of modern science.
What is there to justify about that claim? Life has only been observed to come from other life. Life has not been observed to come from inorganic matter. That is still only hypothesized, and until it is demonstrated that life can actually arise from inorganic matter, he has the upper-hand in the discussion. Life from other life is the only thing that has been observed, and has been observed consistently, so that he somehow needs to justify that claim is kind of ridiculous.
The ones believing that inorganic matter can give birth to life are the ones that need to present the evidence, because it's a fact that we have seen life arise from other life. It is not a fact that we have seen life arise from inorganic matter. Just because you and others (including scientists) think 'it must have had to happen that way', is not scientific evidence nor a scientific conclusion, but simply an assertion.
Like you yourself said. People are entitled to their own beliefs but not to their own facts. I'd only wish you'd exercise it in an unbiased manner and everywhere, not only on things you don't like and not with one-colored glasses on.
no one can prove that inorganic matter does not allow life to arise.
It's the ones saying that it can that have the burden of proof.
isnt the idea that life arose from organic matter ( not inorganic matter)? organic matter that exists in quantities in the universe that is not making up life?
Originally posted by radix
reply to post by ImaFungi
isnt the idea that life arose from organic matter ( not inorganic matter)? organic matter that exists in quantities in the universe that is not making up life?
This is just semantics. By inorganic, most people mean "non-living" and that's how I read vasaga's post. In scientific terms, organic molecules are carbon-based molecules which of course make up the building blocks of life.
Then the laws of thermodynamics are also an argument from ignorance. They can not be proven. Only disproven by observing the opposite, and yet they are seen as scientific facts, because nothing that contradict them has ever been observed. And that is the same regarding life. No one has ever seen life arise from non-life. Until that is the case, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that life only comes from other life, and that is no different than the same method used for the laws of thermodynamics. It's basic inductive reasoning, and that somehow you're not allowed to do it for life, is pure bs. Aren't you people always demanding so much evidence for everything? Why is this suddenly an exception?
Originally posted by radix
The fact that life has only been observed to come from other life does not constitute proof that all life comes from other life, it's still an argument from ignorance no matter how you slice it.
Maybe you should look into biocentrism.
Originally posted by radix
It also doesn't explain where that first life came from.
I didn't make such an assertion. Unless of course you say that nature is the creator.
Originally posted by radix
If you want to appeal to a supernatural creator you need to provide evidence that this creator actually exists, it really is that simple.
Then why are you trying so hard to defend the position that life can arise from non-life while it has never been observed?
Originally posted by radix
Straw man. No-one is asserting anything, abiogenesis is a hypothesis which is being tested.
There is nothing to suggest that heat can't flow from cold to hot either, or that time can't go backwards and so on. The only reason we dismiss them is that we have not observed those events. Again, same as life arising from non-life. Just because something is not impossible, it does not mean it's how it happened. That's appeal to probability. Until there is evidence, abiogenesis is still nothing more than an unproven hypothesis and is no more valid than the view that there was a creator. They both lack enough support. That you somehow completely disregard a creator and want to support abiogenesis clearly shows your bias and your selective skepticism, which brings me to....
Originally posted by radix
That's what scientists do, they pose a hypothesis and test it against the observed evidence. So far, there's nothing to suggest abiogenesis is impossible.
Yeah easy cop-out. Always blaming others for your own actions so you can keep acting with double standards.
Originally posted by radix
If I've shown any bias in this thread, it's against poor logic and misrepresentation posing as fact. I'm funny that way.
No I haven't. Read the whole thermodynamic thing again. If you dare to say in your reply that those laws have been proven, you've got to apply the same logic to life arising from life only, and if you call that conclusion unscientific, you'll have to call the laws of thermodynamics unscientific too.
Originally posted by radix
no one can prove that inorganic matter does not allow life to arise.
Exactly! Don't look now but I think you just blew edmc^2:s entire argument out of the water, since he's claiming to have proved just that.
What do you mean? You were constantly saying that somehow edmc^2 needs to prove that life comes from non-life, while that is the only thing that has been observed as of now. And what is this supporting evidence that you're talking about? Just because you can make a wheel with rubber doesn't mean you can make a whole car with rubber. If you don't know what I'm referring to, it's the whole amino-acid/protein generation as somehow being evidence for abiogenesis. It's not enough.
Originally posted by radix
It's the ones saying that it can that have the burden of proof.
Correct - but again, I don't see anyone making that claim. I do think it's a reasonable hypothesis and there is supporting evidence in its favour but there are obviously a lot of loose ends.
I always end up using inorganic instead of inanimate.
Originally posted by radix
This is just semantics. By inorganic, most people mean "non-living" and that's how I read vasaga's post. In scientific terms, organic molecules are carbon-based molecules which of course make up the building blocks of life.
Then the laws of thermodynamics are also an argument from ignorance. They can not be proven. Only disproven by observing the opposite, and yet they are seen as scientific facts, because nothing that contradict them has ever been observed. And that is the same regarding life. No one has ever seen life arise from non-life. Until that is the case, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that life only comes from other life, and that is no different than the same method used for the laws of thermodynamics. It's basic inductive reasoning, and that somehow you're not allowed to do it for life, is pure bs. Aren't you people always demanding so much evidence for everything? Why is this suddenly an exception?
Maybe you should look into biocentrism.
I didn't make such an assertion.
Then why are you trying so hard to defend the position that life can arise from non-life while it has never been observed?
There is nothing to suggest that heat can't flow from cold to hot either, or that time can't go backwards and so on. The only reason we dismiss them is that we have not observed those events. Again, same as life arising from non-life. Just because something is not impossible, it does not mean it's how it happened. That's appeal to probability. Until there is evidence, abiogenesis is still nothing more than an unproven hypothesis and is no more valid than the view that there was a creator. They both lack enough support.
That you somehow completely disregard a creator and want to support abiogenesis clearly shows your bias and your selective skepticism,
Yeah easy cop-out. Always blaming others for your own actions so you can keep acting with double standards.
No I haven't. Read the whole thermodynamic thing again. If you dare to say in your reply that those laws have been proven, you've got to apply the same logic to life arising from life only, and if you call that conclusion unscientific, you'll have to call the laws of thermodynamics unscientific too.
What do you mean? You were constantly saying that somehow edmc^2 needs to prove that life comes from non-life, while that is the only thing that has been observed as of now.
And what is this supporting evidence that you're talking about? Just because you can make a wheel with rubber doesn't mean you can make a whole car with rubber. If you don't know what I'm referring to, it's the whole amino-acid/protein generation as somehow being evidence for abiogenesis. It's not enough.
And the pickle they are in is, that even if they manage to create life, it was still done by an intelligence, which are the scientists who were controlling all the conditions. So one still could not conclude that somehow it happened by accident. It would be no different than a chemical plant creating plastics if the conditions need to be so specific, which they seem to be. The only thing to conclude is that they found to proper conditions to generate life. Impossible to say that nature and/or life has no purpose and is a product of mere chance.
Originally posted by radix
The best that can be achieved is a plausible chemical pathway (under plausible conditions) that can be experimentally verified. In other words, "proof of concept" that life can come from non-life by natural means under the tested conditions.
The evidence has been presented. Sticking your head in the sand and denying it just makes you look stupid or downright dishonest.
Current knowledge and new assumptions on the evolutionary history of the African lungfish, Protopterus, based on a review of its fossil record
"That a known fossil or recent species, or higher taxonomic group, however primitive it might appear, is an actual ancestor of some other species or group, is an assumption scientifically unjustifiable, for science never can simply assume that which it has the responsibility to demonstrate. — It is the burden of each of us to demonstrate the reasonableness of any hypothesis we might care to erect about ancestral conditions, keeping in mind that we have no ancestor alive today, that in all probability such ancestors have been dead for many tens or millions of years, and that even in the fossil record they are not accessible to us." -- Gareth V. Nelson, "Origin and Diversification of Teleostean Fishes," Annals, New York Academy of Sciences, 1971, p. 27.
...a talking snake a talking donkey a woman giving birth at the ripe old age of 90 people living to....
To say that the fossil evidence is incomplete is an embarrassingly obvious truism. The fossil record will remain incomplete until every possible fossil that can conceivably exist has been found.
So what? All the fossils we have actually found (and they number in the billions) all fit with the model of gradual change through descent with modification and totally debunk the creationist account.
"MISSING LINK" FOUND: New Fossil Links Humans, Lemurs?
....But there's a big gap in the fossil record from this time period, Richmond noted. Researchers are unsure when and where the primate group that includes monkeys, apes, and humans split from the other group of primates that includes lemurs. "[Ida] is one of the important branching points on the evolutionary tree," Richmond said, "but it's not the only branching point." At least one aspect of Ida is unquestionably unique: her incredible preservation, unheard of in specimens from the Eocene era, when early primates underwent a period of rapid evolution. (Explore a prehistoric time line.) "From this time period there are very few fossils, and they tend to be an isolated tooth here or maybe a tailbone there," Richmond explained. "So you can't say a whole lot of what that [type of fossil] represents in terms of evolutionary history or biology." In Ida's case, scientists were able to examine fossil evidence of fur and soft tissue and even picked through the remains of her last meal: fruits, seeds, and leaves. What's more, the newly described "missing link" was found in Germany's Messel Pit. Ida's European origins are intriguing, Richmond said, because they could suggest—contrary to common assumptions—that the continent was an important area for primate evolution.
I notice you still haven't presented any article mentioning genetic boundaries against speciation, how's that coming?