abioGenesis hypothesis: scientific or just a silly idea? What say you?

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
oops wrong thread..

edit on 25-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: deleted response in wrong thread.

They're very similar

Yep...business as usual.




The last one is just for comic affect

Originally posted by flyingfish

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
oops wrong thread..

edit on 25-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: deleted response in wrong thread.

They're very similar

Yep...business as usual.

The last one is just for comic affect

What we have here is an excellent example of a bully who finally meet his/her match and can't respond intelligently, thus he/she is reduced to just ridicule.

In other words all the huffing and puffing are nothing but smoke screen and reveals the weakness of his/her argument if there ever was one.

So may I suggest to study up more so that you can at least offer a grown up reply instead of the childish reply above. That is of course if you're able think intelligently as 5th grader.

tata...

reply to post by TheJackelantern


After reading your post and the links you've provided - you struck me as a deep thinker if not a philosopher. Unfortunately I don't have that much tolerance with philosophy nor have the heart to discuss philosophy.

In any case there's one thing that stand out in your post.

The answer to my question:


Was there a programming CAUSE?

You said:

There certainly was and is..

If so is the CAUSE intelligent?

And who is this INTELLIGENT first CAUSE?

Is this INTELLIGENT CAUSE according to your philosophy - Existence?

If so - what is existence in scientific terms?

Is it an entity or just a force?

Like you said:

Giving a conscious mind can't exist without "CAUSE", yes existence itself did all the work by itself and for itself. Existence creates us, and we being of existence can go on to create other things. At the end of the day, Existence itself is the first cause, and the totality of causality to which governs everything including the conscious state.

reply to post by flyingfish



Now so as to redeem yourself from further embarrassment and show that you have at least an once of intelligence let me please post this question to you also:

If the apparatus used in the Urey-Miller experiment (that produced the non-living organic materials) correspond to the Earth's primitive atmosphere, and the organic materials correspond to the building blocks for life, whom do the scientists - Miller/Urey, et al correspond to in the abiogenesis hypothesis world?

Blind Chance Event or Intelligence?

Don't know?

After reading your post and the links you've provided - you struck me as a deep thinker if not a philosopher. Unfortunately I don't have that much tolerance with philosophy nor have the heart to discuss philosophy.

Or tolerance for reading comprehension..

If so is the CAUSE intelligent?

If you bothered to read my posts you would have had the answer.. I suggest you read up on information science and information theory. And if you want the simple answer: Existence itself governs everything including anything conscious..

And who is this INTELLIGENT first CAUSE?

What part about the fact you can't create that which yourself requires to exist do you not comprehend? You can't create existence kiddo... And again, intelligence can not exist without cause, and it's pretty impossible to be a "first cause" when consciousness itself can not exist without cause..

Is this INTELLIGENT CAUSE according to your philosophy - Existence?

Existence itself is the totality of causality. Existence itself is the force to all cause, the foundation of all rules, processes, systems, or things that exist, could exist, have existed, or will ever exist. That includes governing consciousness sir...

If so - what is existence in scientific terms?

The totality of everything. Synonymous with reality in it's totality.

Is it an entity or just a force?

All of the above. It's me, you, the sand on the beach, the space, every dimensional value, every bit of information, and every conscious and unconscious thing. It's every rule, every law, every force to cause..

Since you wanted to quote me here:

Giving a conscious mind can't exist without "CAUSE", yes existence itself did all the work by itself and for itself. Existence creates us, and we being of existence can go on to create other things. At the end of the day, Existence itself is the first cause, and the totality of causality to which governs everything including the conscious state.

I have a question I expect you to answer:

What is GOD without Existence?

Now that is a very interesting question giving the fact that existence itself is the Pantheist GOD, and is it you that is begging us that your GOD must "be of existence" like the rest of us? Must suck to be slave to require another religions GOD to even have the ability to beg for the existence of your GOD. And what's worse, as I have stated before, existence is the top and bottom of the GOD totem pole. It's the entire spectrum, and it literally makes the concept of GOD moot since it would make everything GOD to which includes all of us since we are all of existence itself.. So sorry, the only GOD and cause to everything is existence itself! And if you think not, you can feel free to answer my question and then demonstrate empirically how I am wrong here.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by flyingfish

 

Now so as to redeem yourself from further embarrassment and show that you have at least an once of intelligence let me please post this question to you also:

If the apparatus used in the Urey-Miller experiment (that produced the non-living organic materials) correspond to the Earth's primitive atmosphere, and the organic materials correspond to the building blocks for life, whom do the scientists - Miller/Urey, et al correspond to in the abiogenesis hypothesis world?

Blind Chance Event or Intelligence?

Don't know?

Blind chance, as it would have to be irregardless since consciousness can't exist without cause, and is an emergent property of energy and processes itself.. Hence you lose regardless of how you want to look at it.. And to directly answer, they are referencing energy itself, and how energy can interfere with itself.. The apparatus is irrelevant since such conditions the apparatus simulates can be found on Earth, or in Earth's history. They only need prove the Chemistry. Earth is a giant self run chemistry lab and it doesn't need intelligence to do anything at all. It's made of energy, and atoms made of energy to which does all the work. Let me help you further here:

E = Existence = Energy = information = force = cause = emergent properties = you, me, the stars, and everything else.

Or:

E = Existence
E = Energy
E = Everywhere
E = Emergence or Emerging properties
E = MC^2
E = Evolution
E = Everything
E = Everyone
E = Me to

And if you like, E = easy to understand without having to go into Everything E can do, or how E does Everything it can do. E is thus the only Established and Empirically supported truth we have thus far. E Enables us to do the things we do, and be who we are. And without E there is nothing, no Existence, no me, no you, not anything. And well, it's good to know that E exists simply because nothing can't. It's good to know that E can neither be created nor destroyed. This means we will Exist in some form or another regardless of what happens after death. E is even every letter in the alphabet since it is the Energy that makes up the very Essence of Every letter.

E Explains itself and is self-Explanatory.. It's also Eternal, and gives us the ability to Even have Emotion..

It's simply "E"

Yep, it's simply E if you really want to break it all down into it's simplest form. Now if you like, as stated before, I can describe how this works in relation to a conscious state and time, or the inertia of information in regards to why we know consciousness can't exist without cause.

Just as there is no intelligence required in the formation of snowflakes, there is none required in the formation of life either. Both are electromagnetic phenomenon. Both reside on chaos theory where order arises from feedback in the system. Hence, when ever forces meet in harmony, you get explicit order even if it appears disordered. And without such systems, you can't have life, or any hope of a conscious state son.. It's not hard to grasp, it's a no duh at this point! What you should be asking is how fortunate and amazing it is that a conscious state even evolved to exist at all as that is what is the most unlikely thing to ever exist giving what is required to support it. Cognitive systems theory is a very, very, very complicated field that includes biochemistry.. Simply put, intelligence being the source to everything is a laughable joke.

So every time you want to use the "intelligence argument", I will simply point you to learn your ABC's, and to learn energy =/= information as cause of causation:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Back on topic:

We can reference further information on the origins of life here:

Physical Sciences: Chemistry

G. W. Hodgson and
Cyril Ponnamperuma

PREBIOTIC PORPHYRIN GENESIS: PORPHYRINS FROM ELECTRIC DISCHARGE IN METHANE, AMMONIA, AND WATER VAPOR PNAS 1968 59 (1) 22-28
...probable synthesis during chemical evolution," Nature, 202, 1231-1232 (1964). 9 Hodgson, G. W., and B. C. Baker, "Porphyrin abiogenesis from pyrrole and formaldehyde under simulated geochemical conditions," Nature, 216, 29-32 (1967). 10 Krashnovskii, A. A...

Or this soon to be up coming publication:

www.nytimes.com...

Dr. Ratcliff and his adviser, Michael Travisano, are experts in experimental evolution. They design experiments in which microbes can evolve interesting new traits within weeks.

“We were sitting in his office drinking coffee, talking about what would be the coolest thing you could do in the lab,” Dr. Ratcliff said. “O.K., the origin of life would be too hard. But other than the origin of life, what would be the coolest thing?” They decided it would be observing single-celled microbes evolving a primitive form of multicellularity.

The scientists designed an experiment with brewer’s yeast, which normally lives as single cells, feeding on sugar and budding off daughter cells to reproduce. If you want to know more about electromagnetism and life, you can go here:

scholar.google.com...
www.biotele.com...
n.b5z.net...
www.iccm-central.org... /Proceedings/ICCM17proceedings/Themes/Nanocomposites/MULTIFUNC%20NANOCOMP/E3.14%20Lee.pdf
www.scielo.cl... mp;script=sci_arttext
www.necsi.edu... pdf

Electromagnetism is responsible for practically all the phenomena encountered in daily life, with the exception of gravity. Ordinary matter takes its form as a result of en.wikipedia.org... intermolecular forces between individual molecules in matter. Electromagnetism is also the force which holds electrons and protons together inside atoms, which are the building blocks of molecules. This governs the processes involved in chemistry, which arise from interactions between the electrons inside and between atoms.

And we can see this very issue below in self-organizing biochemical systems: (see next post)

Theist asked:

Why don't they manufacture this theorized self-replicating peptide and prove that it can self replicate. Then we will all know that a self replicating peptide can be ONLY 32 amino acids long.

Answer:

staff.science.nus.edu.sg...

A Self-Replicating Peptide under Ionic Control
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by S Yao - Cited by 36 - Related articles
This work was supported by the National Science Foundation. (9457372-CHE). ... K1K2 peptide would self-replicate from smaller fragments only under those .... time makes such coupling reactions possible in an unusually efficient manner.

A pH-Modulated, Self-Replicating Peptide
www.google.com... _papers%2Fdesign5.pdf&ei=LMowT77RFsn20gHi9-X5Bw&usg=AFQjCNFrIhgnANFuixa7A6fYrgtYKSsL6g
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by S Yao - 1996 - Cited by 58 - Related articles
A pH-Modulated, Self-Replicating Peptide. Shao Yao, Indraneel Ghosh, Reena Zutshi, and. Jean Chmielewski*. Department of Chemistry, Purdue UniVersity ...

A Self-Replicating Peptide Nucleic Acid
Tobias A. Plöger, Günter von Kiedrowski
(Submitted on 21 Dec 2011)

We report on a case of autocatalytic feedback in a template directed synthesis of a self-complementary hexa-PNA from two trimeric building blocks. The course of the reaction was monitored in the presence of increasing initial concentrations of product by means of RP-HPLC. Kinetic modeling with the SimFit program revealed parabolic growth according to the so-called square-root law. The observed template effect, as well as the rate of the ligation, was significantly influenced by factors like nucleophilic catalysts, pH value, and uncharged co-solvents. Systematic optimization of the reaction conditions allowed us to increase the autocatalytic efficiency of the system by two orders of magnitude.

Comments: 36 pages
Subjects: Molecular Networks (q-bio.MN); Populations and Evolution (q-bio.PE)
Cite as: arXiv:1112.4952v1 [q-bio.MN]
Submission history
From: Tobias Plöger [view email]
[v1] Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:50:52 GMT (897kb)

Mechanosensitive Self-Replication Driven by Self-Organization
www.sciencemag.org...
Jacqui M. A. Carnall1,
Christopher A. Waudby1,2,
Ana M. Belenguer1,
Marc C. A. Stuart3,4,
Jérôme J.-P. Peyralans4 and
Sijbren Otto4,*

+ Author Affiliations

1University of Cambridge, Department of Chemistry, Lensfield Road, Cambridge CB2 1EW, UK.
2Department of Structural and Molecular Biology, University College London, London WC1E 6BT, UK.
3Groningen Biomolecular Sciences and Biotechnology Institute, University of Groningen, Nijenborgh 4, 9747 AG Groningen, Netherlands.
4Centre for Systems Chemistry, Stratingh Institute, University of Groningen, Nijenborgh 4, 9747 AG Groningen, Netherlands.

*To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected].

Abstract

We report here two self-replicating peptide-derived macrocycles that emerge from a small dynamic combinatorial library and compete for a common feedstock. Replication is driven by nanostructure formation, resulting from the assembly of the peptides into fibers held together by β sheets. Which of the two replicators becomes dominant is influenced by whether the sample is shaken or stirred. These results establish that mechanical forces can act as a selection pressure in the competition between replicators and can determine the outcome of a covalent synthesis.

www.sciencedirect.com...
www.google.com... 0030706%2Fpdf&ei=1dAwT7SMN4jo0QG41djCBw&usg=AFQjCNHypxsrHugqBF-tztpXnVXaK9GuAg
www.google.com... FCOBCpeptideSA.pdf&ei=1dAwT7SMN4jo0QG41djCBw&usg=AFQjCNEOne2P9nIRbVx3P1blTIQB_PnEMg
www.google.com... abs%2F396447a0.html&ei=1dAwT7SMN4jo0QG41djCBw&usg=AFQjCNEt5LKIXFp0E24jW9WfZ5ConxapJg

-----Continued ---->

And some Primary source material:

Biological Sciences - Biochemistry
www.pnas.org... f+html?sid=e8e56014-5b53-4b56-92...

Arthur L. Weber and
Sandra Pizzarello

The peptide-catalyzed stereospecific synthesis of tetroses: A possible model for prebiotic molecular evolution PNAS 2006 103 (34) 12713-12717; published ahead of print August 11, 2006, doi:10.1073/pnas.0602320103
...facile reaction between amino acids and carbonyl sulfide near volcanic sources ( 25 ). On the other hand...in the distribution of homochiral and racemic peptide products. For homochiral...this end, the l -ee of meteoritic amino acids, which were validated unequivocally...therein). Materials and Methods Peptides and other chemicals were obtained...nitrogen atoms of the peptide catalyst and the C1 of one glycolaldehyde molecule...material, such as the nonracemic amino acids found in meteorites, could have...stereospecific catalysis. Because peptides might have formed readily on the...Biogenesis Catalysis Evolution, Molecular Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry...

-

Peptides by activation of amino acids with CO on (Ni, Fe) S surfaces: implications for the origin of life
[PDF] from forth.gr
www.sciencemag.org...
C Huber… - Science, 1998 - sciencemag.org... In experiments modeling volcanic or hydrothermal settings amino acids were converted into their peptides by use of coprecipitated ... 1 mmol of NiS in 10 ml of water with 4 mmol of CO gas (1 bar ...CO-SCH 3 ), and by the formation of small amounts of the N-acetyl-amino acids in our ...Cited by 295 - Related articles - BL Direct - All 13 versions

-

From the prebiotic synthesis of α-amino acids towards a primitive translation apparatus for the synthesis of peptides
www.springerlink.com...
R Pascal, L Boiteau… - Prebiotic Chemistry, 2005 - Springer... atmosphere some local environments may remain favorable to prebiotic chemistry, such as
volcanic plumes or ... Kobayashi and co-workers succeeded in syn- thesizing amino acid precursors(amino acids being observed after acidic hydrolysis) in the gas phase (80 ◦ C..

-

A sulfurous start for protein synthesis
www.sciencemag.org...
G Vogel - Science, 1998 - sciencemag.org
... The amino acids had to be kept dry, for instance, or be activated by compounds not found in nature. In contrast, Wächtershäuser says, his system “uses nothing more than what is available in volcanic exhalations”—the magma and pressurized gases that suddenly hit cooler .

Amino acid dependent formation of phosphate anhydrides in water mediated by carbonyl sulfide
pubs.acs.org...
LJ Leman, LE Orgel… - Journal of the American …, 2006 - ACS Publications
... The studies reported here suggest that COS, a simple volcanic gas, could have mediated both ...Citation data is made available by participants in CrossRef's Cited-by Linking service. ... mechanisms and free energetics underlying the formation of peptides from α-amino acids and α

-

[PDF] Life's first scalding steps
[PDF] from sciencenews.org
www.sciencenews.org...
S Simpson - Science News, 1999 - sciencenews.org... Water and Volcanic Gases Pyruvic Acid Alanine Activated Acetic Acid ... He sees no reason why amino acids simmering in pools of water on rocky shorelines couldn't link up through ... around for the origin of life would like to discover the first molecule that learned to make copies of

-

Direct asymmetric intermolecular aldol reactions catalyzed by amino acids and small peptides A Córdova, W Zou, P Dziedzic… - …
A European Journal, 2006 - Wiley Online Library...
Get PDF (261K)
onlinelibrary.wiley.com...
Oligopeptide formation may thus have played a role in the evolution of homochirality of sugars. For instance, we found that ancient amino acids that are oligomerized to peptides with the help of volcanic gas20 catalyze the asymmetric

Abiogenisis video for the Creationists here:

www.youtube.com...

And some backing by actual academic material above this post and here as well:

surrounding cell-like vesicles composed of semi-permeable membranes.(Provided by Jack Szostak, Professor of Genetics, Harvard Medical. cont……
origins.harvard.edu...

The Origins of Cellular Life
Jason P. Schrum, Ting F. Zhu and Jack W. Szostak
The Origins of Cellular LifeJason P. Schrum, Ting F. Zhu and Jack W. Szostak

And:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Irene Chen and Jack Szsostac..A kinetic study of Growth Fatty acid Vesicles.

And.. I love the music in the video while reading such scientific / academic material

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by Barcs

 

Science has CONCLUSIVELY eliminated abiogenesis. finished, kaput, bupkus, nada, (i.e., THAT DOG DOES NOT HUNT!!! STICK A FORK IN IT!!!)

Really? You got a link on that or you just making stuff up again? Last I checked, they were able to duplicate 2 or 3 parts of the process.

Yeah, the link is this...You set a sterile empty box on the table...put a dead mouse in brown paper sack...whirl the brown paper sack over your head and scream like a chicken...check the sterile empty box for signs of life...Repeat the process ad infinitum...Meanwhile, take time to enlist young scientists, gullible enough to carry on your life's work...Have them sign a commitment and utilize a will to provide the exact instruction set...

The only life that will be present at the end of this process is you...until you die...then it will be the sap who takes your place...

The idea that life spontaneously generates from NOTHING came from an IDIOT who observed maggots...So have at it there...

Yeah, the link is this...You set a sterile empty box on the table...put a dead mouse in brown paper sack...whirl the brown paper sack over your head and scream like a chicken...check the sterile empty box for signs of life...Repeat the process ad infinitum...Meanwhile, take time to enlist young scientists, gullible enough to carry on your life's work...Have them sign a commitment and utilize a will to provide the exact instruction set...

The only life that will be present at the end of this process is you...until you die...then it will be the sap who takes your place...

The idea that life spontaneously generates from NOTHING came from an IDIOT who observed maggots...So have at it there..

This reminds me of the idiotic and very ignorant peanut butter jar argument... And yet one makes an argument using a computer to which science built...See this is what we call an argument from ignorance because it's clear that people making such arguments have no education what-so-ever regarding the subjects. So they feel small in not knowing anything, and thus need to make them selves look stupid by pretending they have some sort of clue as to what they are talking about. :/

reply to post by edmc^2


I'm not going to argue semantics.

All you have done is proved my point.

You cover all the above in this post.

What we have here is an excellent example of a bully who finally meet his/her match and can't respond intelligently, thus he/she is reduced to just ridicule. In other words all the huffing and puffing are nothing but smoke screen and reveals the weakness of his/her argument if there ever was one. So may I suggest to study up more so that you can at least offer a grown up reply instead of the childish reply above. That is of course if you're able think intelligently as 5th grader. tata...

You have received excellent intelligent responses, all you do is argue semantics and common fallacies.
If you can come up with something worth debating I will entertain you.
Ta da.

Originally posted by totallackey

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by Barcs

 

Science has CONCLUSIVELY eliminated abiogenesis. finished, kaput, bupkus, nada, (i.e., THAT DOG DOES NOT HUNT!!! STICK A FORK IN IT!!!)

Really? You got a link on that or you just making stuff up again? Last I checked, they were able to duplicate 2 or 3 parts of the process.

Yeah, the link is this...You set a sterile empty box on the table...put a dead mouse in brown paper sack...whirl the brown paper sack over your head and scream like a chicken...check the sterile empty box for signs of life...Repeat the process ad infinitum...Meanwhile, take time to enlist young scientists, gullible enough to carry on your life's work...Have them sign a commitment and utilize a will to provide the exact instruction set...

The only life that will be present at the end of this process is you...until you die...then it will be the sap who takes your place...

The idea that life spontaneously generates from NOTHING came from an IDIOT who observed maggots...So have at it there...

You said "science has CONCLUSIVELY eliminated abiogenesis". Let's see the evidence for that instead of attacking scientists and calling them childish names because you're emotionally invested in a faith that defies tangible evidence and reality.

Originally posted by flyingfish
reply to post by edmc^2

 

I'm not going to argue semantics.

All you have done is proved my point.

You cover all the above in this post.

What we have here is an excellent example of a bully who finally meet his/her match and can't respond intelligently, thus he/she is reduced to just ridicule. In other words all the huffing and puffing are nothing but smoke screen and reveals the weakness of his/her argument if there ever was one. So may I suggest to study up more so that you can at least offer a grown up reply instead of the childish reply above. That is of course if you're able think intelligently as 5th grader. tata...

You have received excellent intelligent responses, all you do is argue semantics and common fallacies.
If you can come up with something worth debating I will entertain you.
Ta da.

excellent intelligent responses

you mean the "I Don't Know - We Don't Know" responses?

you mean your ridiculous pathetic responses?

These are the what you call "excellent intelligent responses"? If so, then you got nothing substantial to offer.

Why you can't even answer a simple question: who are the Intelligent people correspond to in the abiogenesis world?

No wonder your only response is a childish ridicule.

Like I said - study up more before you engage in a adult conversation, maybe by then you can present your side intelligently.

tata...

you mean the "I Don't Know - We Don't Know" responses? you mean your ridiculous pathetic responses? These are the what you call "excellent intelligent responses"? If so, then you got nothing substantial to offer. Why you can't even answer a simple question: who are the Intelligent people correspond to in the abiogenesis world? No wonder your only response is a childish ridicule. Like I said - study up more before you engage in a adult conversation, maybe by then you can present your side intelligently. tata...

So you can't answer my questions, especially the one asking you what is god without existence, or especially when you can't seem to engage in any sort of intellectually honest discourse. Hell, you can't even seem to provide academic level material, arguments, or empirical evidence to back yourself up. And you clearly are avoiding at all costs of having to do so. You're basically intellectually bankrupt and you are trying to withdraw funds from an account that is in the red. Worst yet, your question was answered, and the question you are resting your entire argument on is laughable at best as it's not even relevant. And then you complain by appeal to emotion about childish ridicule when you get proved wrong, or when you are unable to cope with being intellectually owned in a discussion that is clearly above your head. And this is a precious statement:

study up more before you engage in a adult conversation

The irony of that statement is incredible to say the least. Here is the total value of all your posts on an academic level: 0

It's pretty funny how that 0 is the same shape of your level of intellectual integrity, honesty, and form of argument to which is nothing but circular. Hence, you have zero relevance in this discussion thus far, and we are wonder when you will actually learn how to be relevant in a discussion. So here we GO, and I am going to do as I promised:

So every time you want to use the "intelligence argument", I will simply point you to learn your ABC's, and to learn energy =/= information as cause of causation:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

When you can start there, learn the basics, then you might just graduate to a more meaningful and relevant position in this discussion. And here is a good video on advice when getting owned in a debate you clearly have lost:

How to lose an argument and win:

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by edmc^2

you mean the "I Don't Know - We Don't Know" responses?

you mean your ridiculous pathetic responses?

Well, it's the only true answer given that we DON'T KNOW...so calling it "pathetic" is incredibly silly

Like I said - study up more before you engage in a adult conversation, maybe by then you can present your side intelligently.

How about you check out those argumentative fallacies first so you FINALLY realize what garbage your arguments are?

Because until you do that, all you display here is a lack of education and an incredible amount of blind ignorance

Originally posted by TheJackelantern

you mean the "I Don't Know - We Don't Know" responses? you mean your ridiculous pathetic responses? These are the what you call "excellent intelligent responses"? If so, then you got nothing substantial to offer. Why you can't even answer a simple question: who are the Intelligent people correspond to in the abiogenesis world? No wonder your only response is a childish ridicule. Like I said - study up more before you engage in a adult conversation, maybe by then you can present your side intelligently. tata...

So you can't answer my questions, especially the one asking you what is god without existence, or especially when you can't seem to engage in any sort of intellectually honest discourse. Hell, you can't even seem to provide academic level material, arguments, or empirical evidence to back yourself up. And you clearly are avoiding at all costs of having to do so. You're basically intellectually bankrupt and you are trying to withdraw funds from an account that is in the red. Worst yet, your question was answered, and the question you are resting your entire argument on is laughable at best as it's not even relevant. And then you complain by appeal to emotion about childish ridicule when you get proved wrong, or when you are unable to cope with being intellectually owned in a discussion that is clearly above your head. And this is a precious statement:

study up more before you engage in a adult conversation

The irony of that statement is incredible to say the least. Here is the total value of all your posts on an academic level: 0

It's pretty funny how that 0 is the same shape of your level of intellectual integrity, honesty, and form of argument to which is nothing but circular. Hence, you have zero relevance in this discussion thus far, and we are wonder when you will actually learn how to be relevant in a discussion. So here we GO, and I am going to do as I promised:

So every time you want to use the "intelligence argument", I will simply point you to learn your ABC's, and to learn energy =/= information as cause of causation:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

When you can start there, learn the basics, then you might just graduate to a more meaningful and relevant position in this discussion. And here is a good video on advice when getting owned in a debate you clearly have lost:

How to lose an argument and win:

www.youtube.com...

edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: (no reason given)

So you can't answer my questions, especially the one asking you what is god without existence, or especially when you can't seem to engage in any sort of intellectually honest discourse.

Huh? - just because I haven't responded to your question (yet) doesn't mean that I can't answer them. Far from it, but like I said - I don't have that much tolerance to engage in philosophical discourse because I'm more of the practical mindset.

Of course you can philosophized all you want but the fact remains - Intelligence IS required to create Intelligent things especially INTELLIGENT Life forms.

And to me INTELLIGENCE require a mind, a mind require a thinking ability, a brain, a intelligent brain requires a body - a person.

That's how practical and logical I am.

So "what is god without existence"?

Answer: whatever you want it to be.

But to me the question to ask is:

What is Existence without God?

Answer - a meaningless existence. An existence without an ULTIMATE purpose. An existence based on what we make it to be, based on human imperfect flawed philosophy.

But even in this frame of mind one is still confronted with the real meaning of our existence.

If there's NO God - The Creator of Life then you make life as you wish.

But if God exist then my existence is forever connected to his existence.

Anyway- like you said, I:

have zero relevance in this discussion thus far, and we are wonder when you will actually learn how to be relevant in a discussion.

because the discussion IS as i have indicated in the title of this thread:

"abioGenesis hypothesis: scientific or just a silly idea? What say you?"

but then again - since abiogenesis is based on ancient philosophy then your ideas might be considered a part of it.

'Existence is the creator of us just like life spontaneously generated from non-life'

Both ideas doesn't mean a squat - but a flawed human philosophy.

reply to post by MrXYZ

Well, it's the only true answer given that we DON'T KNOW...so calling it "pathetic" is incredibly silly

Hey if you DON'T KNOW - you don't know. Nothing wrong or shameful about that (unless you're lying).

But what's PATHETIC is a response like this:

Originally posted by flyingfish

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
oops wrong thread..

edit on 25-7-2012 by TheJackelantern because: deleted response in wrong thread.

They're very similar

Yep...business as usual.

The last one is just for comic affect

because the person responding is showing / revealing his / her weakness. Just like a pathetic bully who just found out that he/she can't bully or fool people anymore.

So he / she hides it by means of a PATHETIC ridicule.

tata...

Originally posted by TheJackelantern
And some Primary source material:

Arthur L. Weber and
Sandra Pizzarello

The peptide-catalyzed stereospecific synthesis of tetroses: A possible model for prebiotic molecular evolution

...facile reaction between amino acids and carbonyl sulfide near volcanic sources ( 25 ). On the other hand...in the distribution of homochiral and racemic peptide products. For homochiral...this end, the l -ee of meteoritic amino acids, which were validated unequivocally...therein). Materials and Methods Peptides and other chemicals were obtained...nitrogen atoms of the peptide catalyst and the C1 of one glycolaldehyde molecule...material, such as the nonracemic amino acids found in meteorites, could have...stereospecific catalysis. Because peptides might have formed readily on the...Biogenesis Catalysis Evolution, Molecular Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometry...

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Peptides by activation of amino acids with CO on (Ni, Fe) S surfaces: implications for the origin of life
[PDF] from forth.gr

C Huber… - Science, 1998 - sciencemag.org... In experiments modeling volcanic or hydrothermal settings amino acids were converted into their peptides by use of coprecipitated ... 1 mmol of NiS in 10 ml of water with 4 mmol of CO gas (1 bar ...CO-SCH 3 ), and by the formation of small amounts of the N-acetyl-amino acids in our ...Cited by 295 - Related articles - BL Direct - All 13 versions

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From the prebiotic synthesis of α-amino acids towards a primitive translation apparatus for the synthesis of peptides

R Pascal, L Boiteau… - Prebiotic Chemistry, 2005 - Springer... atmosphere some local environments may remain favorable to prebiotic chemistry, such as
volcanic plumes or ... Kobayashi and co-workers succeeded in syn- thesizing amino acid precursors(amino acids being observed after acidic hydrolysis) in the gas phase (80 ◦ C..

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A sulfurous start for protein synthesis

G Vogel - Science, 1998 - sciencemag.org
... The amino acids had to be kept dry, for instance, or be activated by compounds not found in nature. In contrast, Wächtershäuser says, his system “uses nothing more than what is available in volcanic exhalations”—the magma and pressurized gases that suddenly hit cooler .

Amino acid dependent formation of phosphate anhydrides in water mediated by carbonyl sulfide

LJ Leman, LE Orgel… - Journal of the American …, 2006 - ACS Publications
... The studies reported here suggest that COS, a simple volcanic gas, could have mediated both ...Citation data is made available by participants in CrossRef's Cited-by Linking service. ... mechanisms and free energetics underlying the formation of peptides from α-amino acids and α

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S Simpson - Science News, 1999 - sciencenews.org... Water and Volcanic Gases Pyruvic Acid Alanine Activated Acetic Acid ... He sees no reason why amino acids simmering in pools of water on rocky shorelines couldn't link up through ... around for the origin of life would like to discover the first molecule that learned to make copies of

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Direct asymmetric intermolecular aldol reactions catalyzed by amino acids and small peptides A Córdova, W Zou, P Dziedzic… - …

Oligopeptide formation may thus have played a role in the evolution of homochirality of sugars. For instance, we found that ancient amino acids that are oligomerized to peptides with the help of volcanic gas20 catalyze the asymmetric

As for the above abstracts - the fact still remain that Life can ONLY come from pre-existing life. Any life form created from non-living materials can ONLY be created by someone who knows what He is doing - with supreme intellect and full understanding of ALL laws present in the universe and ALL things in both the known and the unknown worlds. Someone who is able to bring back someone from the dead.

As far as humans are concerned - it ain't happening and will never happen unless of course he / she has the ability to do such "miraculous acts".

Besides none of the experiments you've provided show conclusively how life Originally came to be by chance events. In fact most of it are just speculations.

like this one I randomly picked:

Oligopeptide formation may thus have played a role in the evolution of homochirality of sugars. For instance, we found that ancient amino acids that are oligomerized to peptides with the help of volcanic gas20 catalyze the asymmetric

"Oligopeptide formation may thus have played a role in the evolution of homochirality of sugars"

"The studies reported here suggest that COS, a simple volcanic gas, could have mediated both.."