Apollo 15, Jim Irwin's historical narrative in review, page 4

Are you now trying to pretend that you are somehow superior to Ludwig Wittgenstein?!

reply to post by decisively

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Wittgenstein never considered such difficulties, and as a matter of fact, was tortured by his own personal lies and moral imperfections. Perhaps the great man's philosophy was hamstrung by his shortsightedness. Certainly we can all see this now given our authority's penchant for dishonesty and our community's affinity for engaging in shared self deceptions.

You seem to have gotten it into your head that if you keep repeating something over and over again it somehow becomes "true." Unfortunately, that is not the case. Just repeating something over and over again cannot even convince others that it's true, despite what advertising agents and political consultants will tell you.

reply to post by denver22

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Nothing here is assumed, Apollo authenticity/inauthenticity is not an issue, not a focus per se...

This is not a thread that assumes Apollo fraudulent, not does it assume Apollo authentic, nor is it a thread that assumes Irwin to be an ACTIVE participant in the perpetration of fraud as regards Apollo, though within the "world" of this thread, Apollo may be inauthentic, as Irwin may, or for that matter may not, have been an active Apollo fraud participant.

"Jim Irwin's historical narrative in review" is an invitation for us to read and learn about one man, about whom our nation made the claim that he indeed, as a matter of simple FACT, walked upon the moon.

What can one say about James Irwin, if anything at all ? Is it all speculative given the circumstances ?

To be sure, we'll have occasion to discuss Apollo's authenticity/inauthenticity here. That said, we are in a sense beyond the simple question of Apollo authenticity here. And so it is very fitting that Irwin was the subject, the man, so chosen by SayonaraJupiter given the curious openness of this particular thread. He was a man of God, of deep deep faith , or so he would have us all believe.

reply to post by decisively

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This is not a thread that assumes Apollo fraudulent, not does it assume Apollo authentic, nor is it a thread that assumes Irwin to be an ACTIVE participant in the perpetration of fraud as regards Apollo, though within the "world" of this thread, Apollo may be inauthentic, as Irwin may, or for that matter may not, have been an active Apollo fraud participant.

Then what is it, exactly? An exercise in adolescent masochism?

Originally posted by decisively
reply to post by denver22

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Nothing here is assumed, Apollo authenticity/inauthenticity is not an issue, not a focus per se...

This is not a thread that assumes Apollo fraudulent,

really:
You have already claimed fraudulence mind control etc.

Now you just sound like a robot!, a constant record playing a second fiddle diddle-diddle with even more drivel.
You twist more than chubby checker..

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

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Since decisively has access to Jim Irwin's original source material I'll be happy to allow his team take the lead on Jim Irwin's plane crash, crushed legs, memory loss and experience with hypnosis. If you can be brief, decisively

Well played.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

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well he survived.. the wiki page hints that irwin came out worse than the student.. kinda curious now too..


reply to post by decisively

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as Irwin may, or for that matter may not, have been an active Apollo fraud participant.

what an oxymoron... irwin was the 8th person to walk on the moon.. yet to Doc NO ONE walked on the moon yet irwin MAY be a perpetrator?? so according to doc he didnt walk on the moon, but he wasnt in on the fraud?? sheesh someone must have taken the oxy away...

reply to post by choos

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choos, you sloppy quote miner! Please don't make the same mistake again. If you quote decisively, you better make damned sure you quote with proper attribution.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

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read just above the quote.. that part was for you..

the quote was for decisively

my bad.. i wasnt clear on that. fixed now.

Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel


reply to post by decisively

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1) Only Scott Bobs around like he is in outer space. Obviously they are trying to "fool" us into thinking that this is a genuine space mission by having Scott float up and down as you see him doing there. Worden and Irwin are sort of painted on there, glued if you will, to the CM backdrop. Bit of an exaggeration, but not much. This is an example of a "weightless scene" which we may have "figured out". Keep in mind, all weightless scenes were NOT done the same way. This one more likely than not employed a layering technique, like green screening or something similar. Scott is the overlay. He would have been shot with nothing but GREEN behind him and then when layered, the only thing one would see from that filming would be Scott, the green having been subtracted out.

If you will observe in the below screen grab from your video, Scott has just entered the scene feet first in a horizontal position, while the others are in a perpendicular position in relationship to the camera. First, this is an indication of weightlessness. There are no tethers, wires, no harness, and no supports visible. Second, as you watch the video, at 0:12 on the counter, you can see a device (circled and as yet unknown) which is behind Scott as he enters the scene.


This next screen grab at approximately 0:14, now shows the device in front of Scott.


This next screen grab at 1:11, shows Worden interacting with the device.


And again at 4:17 with both Worden and Scott behind the device in the same "layer". This is all done in one take with no interruptions, no camera switching, nothing to break the film to go from "layered" to all present.


Also, at 0:22 - 0:24 and at 6:21 - 6:244 we see the shadow of Worden's hand on the sleeve of Scott's arm, which I was unable to capture and see on a screen grab.

Just within your first video clip, I have shown there was NO layering, NO green screening or something similar used in this video. Scott is NOT an overlay. They were all together at the same time, in the same place. So . . .
Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel

Footnote - What difference does it make to use any kind of "layering"? If they wanted to fake it, why not simply do it with them all in the same take? Oh, wait, your premise is bound to the idea that in order to fake the weightless aspect, it has to be done separately. Hmmm, guess you lose, again.

reply to post by Gibborium

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Gibbo your views are most welcome keep it up!

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

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I'd be happy to write about this. Look for it in my next post here.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

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Flying With Luddy and Gottlob, Installment ONE

Imagine yourself to be piloting the YF-12A (en.wikipedia.org...). Yours is a modified version of the experimental bird, modified such that it seats not 2, but 3. Riding with you are both Ludwig Wittgenstein(en.wikipedia.org...) and Gottlob Frege(en.wikipedia.org...). At 2,000 miles an hour plus and capable of flying at altitudes of over 80,000 feet, no one can touch you. It's 1963, and given the plane's prodigious capabilities, you and the two philosophers/logicians/mathematicians have been assigned the important duty of looking up the skirt of Khrushchev's wife, Nina Petrovna. Wittgenstein gonna' do the navigating, Frege weapons, you'll pilot. You say to Ludwig; "55 45 N and 37 36 E brother Luddy and can ya' whistle us some Brahms as we take 'er up ?". Frege interjects, " What's a number, I mean shouldn't we be sure we really know what "55" is before we try and look up Nina's dress ? We might dump this thing into the Volga or somptin' before we even get there. We've gotta' have this all square up, our understanding of what a number is to begin with and what not , ya' know ?" You smack Frege with the back of your hand and hit the gas, taking that bad boy straight up, Frege farts, and Wittgenstein reaches over to crack a window. NASA was involved in the testing of this, not Frege's under high G stress farting, rather YF-12 aircraft equipment performance in general. Why is NASA always involved in this stuff, involved in the testing of weapons systems ?

SayonaraJupiter asked me to write a bit about Irwin's plane crash, crushed legs, memory loss and experience with hypnosis. I'll cover a bit of the front end of this stuff here. There is a lot to it, a rich subject, so some now and some later.

Three of us, myself and 2 friends, have gone over two of Irwin's books in great detail during the course of the last week; TO RULE THE NIGHT(coauthor William A. Emerson. Jr., 1973 Holman Bible Publishers) and DESTINATION MOON( coauthor Al Janssen, 1989, 2004), I'll use those books and our notes on them to cover this material. I'll be sure to indicate where it is that I am engaging in speculation. If I do not say so explicitly, assume I am simply paraphrasing Irwin more or less. The latter book there, DESTINATION MOON, is a children's book /young people's book.

USAF pilot James Irwin was accepted for test pilot school in the spring of 1960;

www.edwards.af.mil...

en.wikipedia.org...). Irwin's assignment as a test pilot found him, his wife and new daughter/first child Joy relocated to Edwards Air Force Base in Southern California.

In Irwin's class of fifteen were future NASA astronauts Michael Collins and Frank Borman. Tom Stafford was an instructor there at the time. Irwin wrote that he felt green, but probably had more varied flying experience than any of the others in his class. Test piloting school, Irwin wrote, had two focuses, one PERFORMANCE, the other, STABILITY AND CONTROL. Surprisingly, at least to me, he wrote the students were NOT for the most part flying the latest and hottest birds. There in test piloting school one learns and works on techniques that can be used to test airplanes, learning to apply standard procedures to measure performance, stability and control. Here's the goal of this generic test piloting, the piloting they learned in school there at Edwards and I quote;

"The secret is to fly smoothly and precisely. You try to hold the air speed to within one or two knots and the altitude within tight tolerances."

That was/is interesting to me as one typically imagines these guys out there like in that Tom Cruise flick, bombing around, shooting missiles, doing spins, shagging babes, blah blah blah, and actually, Irwin is saying something very much to the contrary. Test piloting for Irwin, and presumably most, is rather low key in a sense, a rather sober activity. Test piloting is mostly about controlled precision flying, not fancy flying, at least at first, at least until one gets way up to some super high level.

I said mostly, because Irwin writes that they did do spin tests in a T-33 and LOST A COUPLE OF INSTRUCTORS THE PRIOR YEAR. So not to say it was at times not tricky stuff they were doing, but sounds like mostly Irwin was doing precision flying as a test pilot as opposed to trick flying, or fancy new plane flying.

Flying with Luddy and Gottlob, Installment TWO

Irwin wrote that the test piloting course work/academic work at Edwards was easy. He'd done graduate school work at the University of Michigan and presumably had seen much of it all before.

After test pilot school, Irwin was assigned to report to the Aeronautical Systems Division of Wright-Patterson. They had an office right there at Edwards. Irwin was to work with Lt. Colonel Allan Nye. Irwin was to be the very first test pilot for the then TOP SECRET YF-12A (en.wikipedia.org...). This Lockheed plane would go on to set altitude and speed records, though when Irwin received his orders, not even a prototype had been completed/constructed.

Irwin had a "cover" during this period when he was working in the capacity of test-pilot-to-be for the YF-12A. He was pretending to be going to Hughes Aircraft to be working as the director of the test force for the ASG-18 fire control system (en.wikipedia.org...), and the GAR-9 missile(en.wikipedia.org...).

The air base there had an Aero Club and needed instructors. Irwin saw instructing as a way to get more flying in. Irwin had "qualified" 4 pilots and if he got a fifth qualified he could become an instructor, or so he wrote.

His plate looks pretty full to me at this time, working on both the secret project(YF-12A, Lockheed/Burbank), cover project(ASG-18, GAR-9, Hughes Aircraft) , instructing on weekends. His fifth, and as it turns out, fateful student, was M. Sgt. Sam Wyman. He was married with 3 children. Chubby, slow, likable was Wyman. His job was alleged by Irwin to be the man in charge of the photo lab at Edwards. During WW II the man had trained to fly. Irwin wrote he was nervous, overreacted and never soloed.

Irwin would fly with his student Wyman early on Saturday and Sunday mornings and indicated he actually GOT WORSE as he approached soloing. Irwin thought the key would be in calming the guy down. If he could just get him to relax, perhaps he could solo. After a series of bad landings one Sunday morning, Sam Wyman took off in the front seat at the controls with Irwin in the back. Pulling up into a crosswind the plane was sent into a flat spin.

The planed crashed in the desert. Wyman's "head went right into the front panel and caved it in." Irwin hit the back of the front seat….head turned sideways." The front seat collapsed on Irwin's feet. The right one in particular was injured badly. Irwin sustained a compound fracture, with his "bones sticking out through the flesh". Irwin had 2 broken legs, a broken jaw, and a head injury.

Both men were diagnosed with concussions and were amnestic. Irwin could not recall the events of the previous 24 hours and Sam Wyman's memory was wiped out for the antecedent 5 years, "including the relationship with his wife and and the memory of his daughter, who was two to three years old." In Wyman's case, his head injury was at first blush believed to be fatal and he was given last rites.

Amputation was considered initially as an option in the case of Irwin, but he and the foot both survived. Borman came to the hospital to visit Irwin. I suspect Borman knew what Irwin's "secret job was". This is a hunch on my part.

Once recovered, Irwin returned to the Burbank/Lockheed YF-12A project. He said the secret project crew there was surprised to see him back, walking in on crutches as he was.

3 and one half months after the accident, they cut the cast off what Irwin was to discover was a completely shriveled up right leg.

5 months after the accident, Irwin thought he was close to ready for a bit of flying again, but was surprised to learn that post concussion, it is routine for a pilot to be grounded for AT LEAST A YEAR.
Somewhat discouraged by this, Irwin considered a career in law.

The whole time, Irwin is still involved in the YF-12A project which by the way they called the A-11.

Just after test pilot school, Irwin had had an EEG of all things. The test was done at Brooks Air Force Base. It was done according to Irwin as part of baseline testing for use in selecting astronauts. As best I can tell, this was not done in the context of Irwin's applying to be an astronaut, rather EEGs were being collected on available subjects as part of an astronaut program data base. Irwin's just post test pilot school EEG was borderline abnormal. So now, post major closed head injury, they did a NEW EEG and compared it to the borderline abnormal post test pilot school EEG and found the NEW EEG, the post head injury EEG to be unchanged, still borderline abnormal, but unchanged.

Now 14 months since the accident, with the unchanged EEG to support him, as well as other satisfactory medical tests in support, Irwin was reinstated, deemed fit to fly again. He even had hope of continuing on in the YF-12A project and actually flying the thing.

By late 1962 , Irwin was doing a lot of flying again.

That is a lot to digest and so will leave this for now.

More to come in my next installment of FLYING WITH LUDDY AND GOTTLOB… "

reply to post by decisively

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But anyhoo, back to Irwin. I believe we are missing a lot as regards Edwards. Dyna-Soar Pilots, MOL Pilots, NASA astronauts, all of these wild test planes, the YP-12, the SR71 Blackbird. Borman going to visit Irwin post injury, EEGs, the chubby guy Wyman with the head injury losing 5 years worth of memory and on and on and on. This stuff is crackers wild, crazy , interesting.

Why crackers? Would you kindly condescend to tie it all together in a comprehensible fashion for the rest of us?

Do you think Irwin knew all along that NASA, U.S. manned space flight was a cover for top secret U.S. military projects ? When do you think these guys "find out" this is about weapons, "plane" and simple ?

Only if NASA were a cover for top secret military projects. You have yet to provide any evidence that was the case. In fact, all of the evidence is against it. DynaSoar? Air Force. MOL? Air Force. These weren't even secret!

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