The Eurozone collapse, socialism writ large.

reply to post by HEYJOSE


I hope Greece does leave the Eurozone.

I hope they live how they want to live. Under whatever type of government they choose for themselves.

But their actions should NOT have an impact on other nations.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by daskakik

 

Socialism (or social nationalism, or obfuscation) is ensuring an equal outcome, equal results for potentially unequal input /work.

That is where your wrong because socialism isn't about ensuring equal outcome from unequal work.

Also let me repeat, the definition you posted does not fit the Eurozone because they don't have

an economic system characterised by social ownership and/or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy

so it doesn't fit into either definition of socialism.

reply to post by daskakik
Socialism assures equal outcome regardless of the equality of work.

The Eurozone example is a macro illustration of the fail of socialism.

reply to post by beezzer


The original definition of socialism did not assure equal outcome regardless of the equality of work, so what your pointing out about the Eurozone doesn't fit that definition.

The Eurozone does not have "social ownership and/or control of the means of production" so it doesn't fit that definition either.

You simply chose the wrong word.

Beez, it seems like you're not looking for 'thoughts' but are trying to beat your POV into everyone else. ANOK is correct. The Eurozone most closely resembles a 'Co-operative'. As an example I'll use Ocean Spray cranberry growers. They are a co-op. Although some growers are huge and others small, some more productive than others, they work together to control the cranberry output and price. They cooperatively support research, advertising, product development, administration, etc. The idea was to protect the smaller growers from being gobbled-up by the 'big guys'.

Originally posted by jtma508
Beez, it seems like you're not looking for 'thoughts' but are trying to beat your POV into everyone else. ANOK is correct. The Eurozone most closely resembles a 'Co-operative'. As an example I'll use Ocean Spray cranberry growers. They are a co-op. Although some growers are huge and others small, some more productive than others, they work together to control the cranberry output and price. They cooperatively support research, advertising, product development, administration, etc. The idea was to protect the smaller growers from being gobbled-up by the 'big guys'.

Co-op members don't pony out when other co-op owners fail though.

I'm looking for differences of opinion, but I won't roll over and play dead when someone offers a different opinion.

Originally posted by beezzer
Co-op members don't pony out when other co-op owners fail though.

Neither do real socialists.

And again, they also don't fit the definition of fake socialists.

This is not opinion.

reply to post by daskakik

Socialism
A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

www.brainyquote.com...

Emphasis mine.

reply to post by beezzer

Look, there's original socialism and then there is that definition that you posted. The Eurozone does not fit the original definition of socialism and it also doesn't fit the other definition because bailing someone or some country out is not the same as "just and equitable distribution of property and labor". It may share some characteristics but it doesn't make it the same.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by beezzer

 

Look, there's original socialism and then there is that definition that you posted. The Eurozone does not fit the original definition of socialism and it also doesn't fit the other definition because bailing someone or some country out is not the same as "just and equitable distribution of property and labor". It may share some characteristics but it doesn't make it the same.

The Eurozone brilliantly illustrates the aspect of socialism that equates "just and equitable distribution of property and labor" by the variable deficits and fiscal irresponsibility of it's members.

Living in Germany, I've had many great conversations and debates with the locals here. They love socialism, they call it socialism, and more power to them.

Their country, their decision.

The irony, when I point it out to them, is that the Eurozone is a reflection of socialism. With it's high producers and it's low producers.

We then do shots of turkish schnapps and laugh.

So it's all good.

reply to post by beezzer

I understand that not all countries in the Eurozone have the same standard of living which is why I say that it doesn't fit the definition you posted.

reply to post by beezzer


That's not entirely accurate. Going back to my Ocean Spray example, the co-op has certain fixed costs associated with it that support activities that benefit the entire co-op. If a grower does poorly, screws-up or otherwise doesn't pull his weight the remainder of the co-op has to cover those shared costs. What they ultimately do about the aberrant grower depends on the circumstances.

Terminology and most especially labels change. For example, compare the core principals of the present Republican party with it's original roots and stated ideals.

reply to post by beezzer


There are some worker owned coops in Europe, just like there are in the USA. But for the nation to be socialist all production has to be worker owned. Capitalism is still the major model of Europe's economy.

Thatcher privatised a lot of national industries in the 80's...

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by beezzer

 

I understand that not all countries in the Eurozone have the same standard of living which is why I say that it doesn't fit the definition you posted.

But expectations are supposed to be equal.

I mean, if not then why is Greece considering the Drachma?

Originally posted by jtma508
reply to post by beezzer

 

That's not entirely accurate. Going back to my Ocean Spray example, the co-op has certain fixed costs associated with it that support activities that benefit the entire co-op. If a grower does poorly, screws-up or otherwise doesn't pull his weight the remainder of the co-op has to cover those shared costs. What they ultimately do about the aberrant grower depends on the circumstances.

Terminology and most especially labels change. For example, compare the core principals of the present Republican party with it's original roots and stated ideals.

In the analogy, the IMF would shore-up Greece.

But it can't. Not realistically.

reply to post by ANOK


You're splitting hairs.

You focus on one aspect and ignore the rest.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by ANOK

 

You're splitting hairs.

You focus on one aspect and ignore the rest.

OK can you elaborate? What am I ignoring? Are you trying to claim that socialism is more than what it actually is? You are trying to say all the garbage that has been connected to, and done under it's name, are valid definitions of socialism? You are saying what people do defines the meaning of the term?

I wish there was a [shakes head] emoticon.

Socialism is the workers common ownership of the means of production, anything else and it is not socialism.

Is that clear enough for you? I might be splitting hairs, but you my friend are splitting definitions into misunderstandings from out of context propaganda fed to you by your state overlord.

The problem with the premise is the "socialism" part is too far down the line in what causes the issue. The Euro, according to its creator, was designed to fail - again, it was designed to fail. Think about that, the fiat currency euro (fiat currency are debt notes - iou's and not money) was created to be flawed enough to fail at a given point. Did anyone ask when that point is? Did anyone in the entire EU ever offer up the expiration date to those who signed up?

This has nothing to do with weak and strong, this has to do with asset seizure through the process of leveraged debt, via such schemes as naked short selling, pump and dump, fractional lending, high frequency trading and war. NONE, not one of these things, has anything to do with "help you neighbor" when he's down, share for the good of all etc.

When you speak of capitalism you speak of a swap-meet type world where folks bring their goods to sell and trade without the king (government) taking a tase of every transaction. When you speak of the reality we live in, you need to see the people, places and things are assets to be traded, killed and used until it is all over - we near the end as we speak.

reply to post by ANOK

Only if we agree that your definition is accurate.

reply to post by crankyoldman


was designed to fail - again, it was designed to fail.
the Euro was designed too usher in the new Europe,,
the long awaited propheciesed 1000 year pax romanus.
if u were part of the European Union.

old script,,

designed too fail,,no,,
bound to failure,,so its seems.