4,000 years ago, climate change caused massive civilization collapse

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Around that time in pre-history, the earth's axial tilt was around 26 to 27 degrees compared to the current value of around 23 degrees.

As pointed out in your thread, ancient measurements of axial tilt cannot be relied upon.

Really ???
So you say ancient measurements can't be relied upon ... according to which expert(s) ?
I'd be more than happy to look over your sources that you're relying on to make such a bold and all-encompassing statement !
And so you're saying that they could construct, thousands of years ago, marvels such as the pyramids and using sophisticated mathematics align them almost precisely to true north and yet at the same time, they somehow were incapable of measuring the angle of a shadow on the ground cast by a rod ?

As I pointed out in that original thread, ancient astronomers/mathematicians were MORE than capable of measuring the angle of a shadow cast by a rod ... and measuring it accurately. How does measuring a shadow angle today become so significantly superior to measuring a shadow angle millennia ago ?

I think you do those ancient astronomers and mathematicians a great disservice !

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by olliemc84

 

As your source points out, the axis of rotation was not changed by the earthquakes. The figure axis was. It had no effect on the axial tilt.

Gross also estimates that the Chile earthquake shifted Earth's figure axis by about three inches (eight centimeters).

Deviating roughly 33 feet (10 meters) from the north-south axis around which Earth revolves, the figure axis is the imaginary line around which the world's unevenly distributed mass is balanced.

To explain the difference, Keith Sverdrup, a seismologist at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, likened Earth to a spinning figure skater holding a rock in one hand. The rotational axis of the skater is still down the middle of the body, he said, but the skater's figure axis is shifted slightly in the direction of the hand holding the rock.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Thank you for pointing that out. I'm an hour into a benadryl haze and not really thinking clearly. Damn allergies.

reply to post by tauristercus

almost precisely to true north

Almost precisely? What does that mean?

they somehow were incapable of measuring the angle of a shadow on the ground cast by a rod ?

But you forget that it is not quite as simple a matter as measuring an angle. That is not what was done.

I do them no disservice. They were limited by the tools which they had available to them. I really don't want to go through it all again.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus

 

The technology is not in the gnomon itself but in the method used to measure the length of the shadow.

The earliest measurements of the shadow's length were no doubt made with the foot-rules of the time, but as it was realised that these varied according to bureaucratic prescription and local custom, a standard jade tablet (thu kuei), which may be called the Gnomon Shadow Template, was made for this purpose only. It is mentioned in the Chou Li, and actual specimens, made of terra-cotta, one dated +164 are extant.

The moment of the solstice could thus be determined by placing the calibrated template at the base of the post due north for several days around the expected time, and taking noon of the day when the shadow most nearly coincided with it.

The purpose of the gnomon was to determine the day the solstice occurred. A template was adopted because of the inconsistency of other methods of measurement.

The template system was an attempt to overcome the chaos of primitive metrology, and did not persist...In +500 Tsu Keng-Chih made bronze instruments in which the gnomon and a horizontal measuring scale were combined. About fifty years earlier Ho Cheng-Thien had proceeded to more careful observations of the winter solstice shadow.

So there was an improvement in Chinese technology around the time of the 6th century and that is apparent in the consistency of the measurements after then. At that point the variation from the calculated obliquity varies by amounts of less than 1/10º (.083º). With an 8 foot gnomon that is a difference in shadow length of less than 1/5". A difference in timing of a few minutes and/or leveling errors can easily account for such a small difference.


Source



Yes, Lockyer got it wildly wrong. In the case of Karnak he was off by at least 1500 years and for Stonehenge about 800 years.

[edit on 7/30/2010 by Phage]

There is of course, more.

Originally posted by Lionhearte

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
It does seem that the oldest cities are now under water, which is why archaeology comes up woefully short in their estimation of "how old" civilization is, and where it originated. I haven't read much on it, but I imagine that the cutting edge of archaeology is now occurring by divers in the oceans of the world.

Wasn't Mohenjo Daru featured on "Ancient Aliens" as the city where it appears that a nuclear holocaust took place?

If I may ask, could you please provide some links or citation to these underwater cities? I could do a bit of Google-fu myself and find them, but wondering if you had any leads. I'm not saying you're making it up or anything, just would like to do some research on it (:

On topic though, this does seem like evidence for a world-wide flood, especially since there are over 270 surviving world-wide flood legends today - which makes one wonder, why would there be so many legends? It seems obvious to me, that there was indeed a world-wide flood occurring about 4,400 years ago, around 2400 BC - and some Creations believe that would have caused a mini Ice Age, lasting several hundreds years, and once the ice melted, it rose the waters levels a few extra thousand feet, "dividing" the land (as it says in the Bible, about Peleg!), giving just enough time for animals to migrate to their current locations. If that is true, then around when this occurred would have been right when these civilizations were "wiped out" - 3,900 years ago.

My belief is that the "great flood" was already a distant memory 3,900 years ago. IMO I think the flood happened between 12,000 and 9,000 BC.

reply to post by olliemc84


Needing some clarification here.
Flood?
Drought?
Global warming?
Butterfly effect?

What rabbit hole are we going down into.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

. The signs are all around us.

Oh do tell great Slayer. What signs.

Originally posted by FissionSurplus

Wasn't Mohenjo Daru featured on "Ancient Aliens" as the city where it appears that a nuclear holocaust took place?

It was, but the idea is in dispute
rationalwiki.org...

Small groups of bodies dating from multiple periods a thousand years apart, with clear signs of burial, and some stratum coincidences, clearly is weak evidence for an atomic explosion. The evidence is also nothing like what is presented on proponent websites or television.

Interesting read and covers most of the points from AA
After looking at pictures of it, I would have to agree with the writer that 15 foot mud brick walls probably wouldn't withstand a nuclear blast, but there they are, still standing in all their mudden glory.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
The best way to look at this possible explanation is to take an inventory of how many cultures, civilizations around the globe began or "restarted" at or around 2,000 BC which is 4,000 years ago...

I'd love to look at these restarted civilisations!
Can you point them out please, I seemed to have missed them throughout the known archaerological record.


*moons The Slay

reply to post by kdog1982


Over a course of a couple thousand years you could have had all of those circumstances. 6,000 years ago there was less ice in the arctic, if it existed at all, which would lead me to believe that sea levels were higher. Then 4,000 years ago Earth cooled, ice came back to the arctic, the air was drier, and you have drought.

The post you are replying to is my opinion of the flood legend that is in hundreds of ancient cultures. The same flood that is in the Bible. Not connected to the topic of what happened to civilizations 4,000 years ago, which IMO was a comet strike.

Damn it, now I am confused.
Stupid benadryl.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe there have been civilizations that have been lost for A LONG time. Dating back to the end of the last ice age. The first big flood which took out most of the coastal cities and monuments (Yonagumi, for example) predated the flood that took out Bet Dwarka and I'm sure many other coastal cities yet to be discovered.

Originally posted by netgamer7k
What's so hard about believing that a worldwide flood happened 4,000 years ago?

Well ist not really scietific research if we simply believe like Tinkerbell told Peter Pan "I can Fly" if you believe.....

There is absolutely no evidence of a worldwide flood 4000 years ago, or 7000 years ago, the scars on the earth from natures impact (including humans) are all there to read, you just have to be bothered to source science journals and not ficticious literature.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus

 

almost precisely to true north

Almost precisely? What does that mean?

It means that you're resorting to obfuscation by arguing semantics, even though you and I both know that you understand fully the point I was making.

Taken from Wiki:
"The sides of the square base are closely aligned to the four cardinal compass points (within 4 minutes of arc) based on true north, not magnetic north"

So they can accurately align a mega-tonne pyramid but according to you, are completely incapable of accurately measuring the angle of a shadow cast on the ground by a rod ?

But you forget that it is not quite as simple a matter as measuring an angle. That is not what was done.

Actually yes, it WAS as simple as that.

Here's a link to the Physics department at Balikesir University, Turkey where students measured the earth's axial tilt (and were out by only 0.7 degree) using nothing more than 3 nails, a wooden board and a plastic protractor.

So please do NOT try to convey the impression that an advanced rocket science degree was required !

I do them no disservice. They were limited by the tools which they had available to them. I really don't want to go through it all again.

Yep, I can certainly see why you wouldn't want to pursue a failing argument on your part !

I don't buy into the change in tilt theory. Such an event would show up across many disciplines of study and should be quite obvious. Archaeoastronomy, coastal archeology, marine archaeobiology, geology, and climatologists should all have evidence to support this. Perhaps they do and it hasn't been put together yet. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

Still, it would be interesting to look into. I'd look for regions where land rise above sea level is very shallow so that small changes in sea level would have far ranging effects on where the coast is. Then I'd look for fishing villages in the wrong place for their time.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz

Originally posted by netgamer7k
What's so hard about believing that a worldwide flood happened 4,000 years ago?

Well ist not really scietific research if we simply believe like Tinkerbell told Peter Pan "I can Fly" if you believe.....

There is absolutely no evidence of a worldwide flood 4000 years ago, or 7000 years ago, the scars on the earth from natures impact (including humans) are all there to read, you just have to be bothered to source science journals and not ficticious literature.

What about the Yonaguni Monument? 90 foot tall stone monument thats top is under 15 feet of water. Has been dated as far back as 8,000 BC to as early as 2 to 3,000 years.

And you could argue that it is a natural formation, but I just can't buy that explanation.

reply to post by Erectus


I like your post

however, in your research at college on the Giza Complex

The great pyramid simply was not constructed in the time frame claimed IMO. As pointed out in Ancient Aliens there were just too many stone blocks. There is no great challenge in moving the stones however. The combined efforts of even 40 men equals a great deal of moving potential.

you will find (which most Orionites, Older Civs and Anicent Alienites ignore) is that there is a large slipway network that you can still see from the stone quarry to the Pyramid *directly to the pyramid, they werent levitated, hummed into place or laser beamed...the scarring of the earth is there, it took alot of pounding, the slip way scars show it. WIll find a link when I leave the office.

There is also a "how to build a pyramid with a ramp" ancient papayrus; like a manual, that everyone ignores...Ill link that too.

reply to post by olliemc84


Sorry how is your question on this monument proving that there was a worlwide flood 4000 years ago?

Originally posted by babybunnies
Well, there was a massive collapse of civilization about 12,000 years ago too,.

Hi Babybunnies, which civilisation was that?
Can I have a link to its remains: literary, earthern, musical, agricultural, pottery, engineering, any will do.
Look forward to seeing it!

reply to post by SLAYER69

"human skeletal remains lying huddled together face down in the streets" My first thought on this is a asteroid they seen it coming and it fried them. Only thing that makes sense to me. They could have had enough time to huddle then bam that's it and this could explain the other stuff to. Where it hit and we need to look for proof. Peace out

Originally posted by Phage
Because, as pointed out, many (all) civilizations began in coastal areas and river valleys. Tsunamis and floods. A tsunami or flood had the potential to wipe away an entire civilization. The stuff of legend.

Possible, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise- ancient civilizations, including China, Babylonia, Wales, Rusia, India, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, Polynesia, and even America all have accounts of a world-wide flood.

Here's a few, from this site here.

Africa, Southwest Tanzania (which I would like to point out is not near the coast).

Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

North America- Aztec

A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

United States- The Ojibwe (living in Minnesota since 1400 AD)

There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived.

A lot of these stories are not "scientifically probable", yet they all carry similar characteristics- they all agree on "destruction by water" and that Humans and animals were spared. A lot of them also attributed it to God and even say a warning was given.

Now, certainly it's possible that these are all coincidences, that this flood only destroyed their own little "universe", yet there's a lot of problems if you go down that road. Why would they say a boat was built? Why not just say it was a flood and they escaped past their valleys? Why would they say it covered all the mountains? I certainly think these legends got skewed a bit, but the meat and potatoes of it always stay the same.

Originally posted by olliemc84
My belief is that the "great flood" was already a distant memory 3,900 years ago. IMO I think the flood happened between 12,000 and 9,000 BC.

I believe it was 4,400 years ago, as I believe in a literal 6-day creation, and that this Earth is a few years short of 6,000 years.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
There is absolutely no evidence of a worldwide flood 4000 years ago, or 7000 years ago, the scars on the earth from natures impact (including humans) are all there to read, you just have to be bothered to source science journals and not ficticious literature.

I disagree, we are looking at the exact same data but coming to different conclusions- for the Creationist, the data matches perfectly with the Biblical account of the Deluge, and I believe that the evidence is incredibly abundance- everything from fossils, to the sedimentary rocks, to the grand canyon, to the clams on top of Mt. Everest-

I implore you to do your own critical thinking and not place so much faith in scientific journals.