4,000 years ago, climate change caused massive civilization collapse

Well, there was a massive collapse of civilization about 12,000 years ago too, when the ice sheet melted at the end of the ice age.

Something had to have caused the ice sheet to melt (as it had hundreds of times in Earth's past) and I can guarantee there wasn't enough human intervention at the time to cause this.

You know what DID cause this? Volcanos. Lots of them.

So,I thinking that not rising seas,but droughts.

Around 4,300 years BP, Sargon of Akkad united city-states of Mesopotamia (present-day Syria and Iraq) into the world's first empire. The empire consisted of two distinct regions: productive rain-fed agricultural regions in the north and the irrigated alluvial plain between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the south. The Akkadian empire flourished for about 100 years until, at 4170 +/- 150 years BP, it suddenly collapsed (Weiss et al., 1993). The city of Tell Leilan in the northern region was abandoned and covered with one meter of wind-blown silt (Weiss et al., 1993). Refugees from the north moved to the southern lowlands. Eventually, about 300 years later, the north was resettled, but the preceding events had destabilized the region and altered the political structures.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

A marine sediment record from off the western coast of Africa clearly shows an abrupt decrease in Saharan vegetation about 5,500 years ago, however (Figure 9). The scientists who generated this record measured the terrigenous flux, or dust that is transported off Africa into the Atlantic Ocean. This variable is inversely related to the amount of vegetation. Prior to 5,500 years ago, vegetation was more extensive in northern Africa and there was little loss of sediment from the land. The reverse is true after 5,500 years ago.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

Originally posted by kdog1982
So,I thinking that not rising seas,but droughts.

Around 4,300 years BP, Sargon of Akkad united city-states of Mesopotamia (present-day Syria and Iraq) into the world's first empire. The empire consisted of two distinct regions: productive rain-fed agricultural regions in the north and the irrigated alluvial plain between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the south. The Akkadian empire flourished for about 100 years until, at 4170 +/- 150 years BP, it suddenly collapsed (Weiss et al., 1993). The city of Tell Leilan in the northern region was abandoned and covered with one meter of wind-blown silt (Weiss et al., 1993). Refugees from the north moved to the southern lowlands. Eventually, about 300 years later, the north was resettled, but the preceding events had destabilized the region and altered the political structures.

Your tentative dating of approximately 4170 +/- 150 years BP gives a date range of around 2008 BC to 2308 BC.

The latter date of 2308 BC coincides very nicely with the date range of 2340 BC to 2350 BC that I supplied in my previous post.
Again, this could be yet another indicator that some highly unusual global event occurred at that point in pre-historical times affecting civilization/society on a global scale.

WOW

All good stuff people. I'm surprised this caught peoples attention, good to know many out there find this as interesting as I do.

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by kdog1982
So,I thinking that not rising seas,but droughts.

Around 4,300 years BP, Sargon of Akkad united city-states of Mesopotamia (present-day Syria and Iraq) into the world's first empire. The empire consisted of two distinct regions: productive rain-fed agricultural regions in the north and the irrigated alluvial plain between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the south. The Akkadian empire flourished for about 100 years until, at 4170 +/- 150 years BP, it suddenly collapsed (Weiss et al., 1993). The city of Tell Leilan in the northern region was abandoned and covered with one meter of wind-blown silt (Weiss et al., 1993). Refugees from the north moved to the southern lowlands. Eventually, about 300 years later, the north was resettled, but the preceding events had destabilized the region and altered the political structures.

Your tentative dating of approximately 4170 +/- 150 years BP gives a date range of around 2008 BC to 2308 BC.

The latter date of 2308 BC coincides very nicely with the date range of 2340 BC to 2350 BC that I supplied in my previous post.
Again, this could be yet another indicator that some highly unusual global event occurred at that point in pre-historical times affecting civilization/society on a global scale.

edit on 1/6/12 by tauristercus because: (no reason given)

I am curious on how you came to that conclusion.
I agree that something happened as I do think another event happened around 13 to 14000 years ago also,but that is another story.

Originally posted by kdog1982
So,I thinking that not rising seas,but droughts.

Around 4,300 years BP, Sargon of Akkad united city-states of Mesopotamia (present-day Syria and Iraq) into the world's first empire. The empire consisted of two distinct regions: productive rain-fed agricultural regions in the north and the irrigated alluvial plain between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the south. The Akkadian empire flourished for about 100 years until, at 4170 +/- 150 years BP, it suddenly collapsed (Weiss et al., 1993). The city of Tell Leilan in the northern region was abandoned and covered with one meter of wind-blown silt (Weiss et al., 1993). Refugees from the north moved to the southern lowlands. Eventually, about 300 years later, the north was resettled, but the preceding events had destabilized the region and altered the political structures.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

A marine sediment record from off the western coast of Africa clearly shows an abrupt decrease in Saharan vegetation about 5,500 years ago, however (Figure 9). The scientists who generated this record measured the terrigenous flux, or dust that is transported off Africa into the Atlantic Ocean. This variable is inversely related to the amount of vegetation. Prior to 5,500 years ago, vegetation was more extensive in northern Africa and there was little loss of sediment from the land. The reverse is true after 5,500 years ago.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

edit on 1-6-2012 by kdog1982 because: (no reason given)

Combine your research with this:

Researchers find arctic may have had less ice 6000-7000 years ago

Recent mapping of a number of raised beach ridges on the north coast of Greenland suggests that the ice cover in the Arctic Ocean was greatly reduced some 6000-7000 years ago. The Arctic Ocean may have been periodically ice free.

The first people from Alaska and Canada, called the Independence I Culture, travelled north-east as far as they could go on land as long ago as 4000-4500 years ago. The scientists have found out that drift ice had formed on the sea again in this period, which was essential for the Inuit in connection with their hunting. No beach ridges have been formed since then.

So what could have caused our Earth to simultaneously cool and go through a drought? Meteor/comet strike? A change in solar activity?

So what could have caused our Earth to simultaneously cool and go through a drought? Meteor/comet strike? A change in solar activity?

That is what is in question.
A comet/asteroid?

New scientific findings suggest that a large comet may have exploded over North America 12,900 years ago, explaining riddles that scientists have wrestled with for decades, including an abrupt cooling of much of the planet and the extinction of large mammals.

phys.org...

That is one theory.

4000 years ago,then yours at 6 to 7000 years ago to this event 13000 years ago.

Some cycle that is not scientifically proven?

Lake Agassiz

Lake Agassiz' major drainage reorganization events were of such magnitudes that they had significant impact on climate, sea level and possibly early human civilization. Major freshwater release into the Arctic Ocean is considered to disrupt oceanic circulation and cause temporary cooling. The draining at 13,000 may be the cause of the Younger Dryas stadial. The draining at 8,400 may be the cause of the 8,200 yr climate event. A recent study by Turney and Brown links the 8,400 drainage to the expansion of agriculture from east to west across Europe; he suggests that this may also account for various flood myths of prehistoric cultures, including the Biblical flood.

Lake Agassiz's history has always intrigued me too. But the most recent research on Lake Agassiz has really opened my eyes.

Evaporation, not outflow, drained Lake Agassiz during the Younger Dryas

Lowell’s research shows that, although water levels did drop, the surface area of the lake increased more than seven-fold at the same time. His research suggests that the lower water levels were caused by increased evaporation, not outflow. While the melting glacier produced a lot of water, Lowell notes that the Moorhead Low was roughly contemporaneous with the Younger Dryas cold interval, when the atmosphere was drier and there was increased solar radiation

Could it be that the SUN is the culprit for all of earths climate changes? Could the sun have literally fried the locals of Mohenjo-Daro in their place due to a very localized solar event?

Yes,it's possible.
Not frying them ,so to speak,but making they're habitat less desirable and moving on.

Something else to check into is the natural oscillations of the ocean currents and how they effect the weather.
Ice water melts from the glaciers and other ice sheets, that introduces fresh water into these currents,therefore changing how those currents flow depending on the decrease of salinity.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by kdog1982

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by kdog1982
So,I thinking that not rising seas,but droughts.

Around 4,300 years BP, Sargon of Akkad united city-states of Mesopotamia (present-day Syria and Iraq) into the world's first empire. The empire consisted of two distinct regions: productive rain-fed agricultural regions in the north and the irrigated alluvial plain between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in the south. The Akkadian empire flourished for about 100 years until, at 4170 +/- 150 years BP, it suddenly collapsed (Weiss et al., 1993). The city of Tell Leilan in the northern region was abandoned and covered with one meter of wind-blown silt (Weiss et al., 1993). Refugees from the north moved to the southern lowlands. Eventually, about 300 years later, the north was resettled, but the preceding events had destabilized the region and altered the political structures.

Your tentative dating of approximately 4170 +/- 150 years BP gives a date range of around 2008 BC to 2308 BC.

The latter date of 2308 BC coincides very nicely with the date range of 2340 BC to 2350 BC that I supplied in my previous post.
Again, this could be yet another indicator that some highly unusual global event occurred at that point in pre-historical times affecting civilization/society on a global scale.

edit on 1/6/12 by tauristercus because: (no reason given)

I am curious on how you came to that conclusion.
I agree that something happened as I do think another event happened around 13 to 14000 years ago also,but that is another story.

Quite a while ago, I authored a thread titled The earths axial tilt - presenting evidence for it being much larger 4000 years ago.

My apologies to you Slayer69 as I momentarily highjack your thread but hopefully I can be excused as I believe it to be of relevance to your thread topic.

To summarize my earlier thread in a nutshell, hard evidence was presented that strongly indicated that approximately 4000 years ago (i.e. around 2345 BC), that the earths axial tilt was more than 3 degrees greater than it is currently. Around that time in pre-history, the earth's axial tilt was around 26 to 27 degrees compared to the current value of around 23 degrees. From that starting period and over the ensuing 4000 years, the earth's axial tilt appears to have been decreasing and the rate of decrease can easily be plotted mathematically.
Full details, explanations, data and mathematical analysis are provided in that thread.

Here's a graph showing the expected (predicted) axial tilt (in green) according to the Lieske Formula and comparing it to actual observations (in red) done over many millennia.


From the present time until around 1600AD, the predicted and the observed axial tilt values agree almost exactly. However, as we go back further in time beyond 1600AD, we find an increasingly marked disagreement between Lieske Formula predictions and what people (ancient astronomers) were actually observing and measuring.
When the observed values (in red) are plotted, it's immediately apparent that they basically fall on a graph line that when projected backwards in time, intersects the x-axis (the date axis) asymptotically at approximately 2345 BC.
The conclusion to be drawn from this is that 4000 years ago, the earth's original axial tilt was much greater at around 26-27 degrees and that some kind of "significant and catastrophic event" happened around this time period that initiated a gradual shortening or decrease in the earth's axial tilt and that over the period of 4000 years, reduced the earth's axial tilt by 3 degrees.

Now a shift of 3 degrees may not sound like much but the impact on global climate would have been immense. Before the 3 degree shift, the arctic would have been approximately 200 nautical miles closer to the equator and Antarctica also would have been a corresponding 200 nautical miles closer to the equator.
So 4000 years ago, both the arctic and Antarctica would have been somewhat "less cold" than they are today, and that over that 4000 year period, the arctic would both have been displaced northwards by approximately 200 nautical miles and Antarctica southwards by the same distance.

Originally posted by kdog1982

So what could have caused our Earth to simultaneously cool and go through a drought? Meteor/comet strike? A change in solar activity?

That is what is in question.
A comet/asteroid?

Reduce the earth's axial tilt by just 3 degrees and you'll play havoc with global climate, wind and rainfall patterns !
Certainly ties in with a lot of ancient civilizations going "bust" around 2340BC.

reply to post by tauristercus


My apologies for not knowing of your previous thread.
I need to read it more in depth.
Thanks for sharing.



And to add.......



Is the wobble coming to its end and starting back outwards,know what I mean?
And how far does it go?

reply to post by tauristercus


Chile earthquake altered Earth axis, shortened day

Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet, shifted axis

Sumatran quake sped up Earth's rotation

How many magnitude 10...11...12 and so on earthquakes have happened during the history of our planet? I would hate to live through the effects of a magnitude 10 earthquake.

Those three earthquakes combined could have shifted our earths axis by 10.5 inches.

Originally posted by olliemc84
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Chile earthquake altered Earth axis, shortened day

Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet, shifted axis

Sumatran quake sped up Earth's rotation

How many magnitude 10...11...12 and so on earthquakes have happened during the history of our planet? I would hate to live through the effects of a magnitude 10 earthquake.

Those three earthquakes combined could have shifted our earths axis by 10.5 inches.

Yes, I was quite surprised when I 1st learned that large enough earthquakes could "potentially" change the earth's axial tilt value ... but in this case the values we're talking about are in the order of just inches.

However, there is strong evidence indicating that the earth's axial tilt has shifted a whopping 3 degrees (or approx. 200 nautical miles) in the last 4000 year period. The change was initially quite rapid but over the last 1000 years or so has decreased so that since 1600 AD, the predicted and observed values have finally come into agreement.

But imagine a world and it's weather/climate patterns where most land masses were roughly 200 nautical miles north or south of their present day locations ... wind patterns would change, higher or lower local temperature differences, precipitation rates would change, ocean patterns would change, etc, etc ... some areas would become drier, some wetter ...

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by olliemc84
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Chile earthquake altered Earth axis, shortened day

Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet, shifted axis

Sumatran quake sped up Earth's rotation

How many magnitude 10...11...12 and so on earthquakes have happened during the history of our planet? I would hate to live through the effects of a magnitude 10 earthquake.

Those three earthquakes combined could have shifted our earths axis by 10.5 inches.

Yes, I was quite surprised when I 1st learned that large enough earthquakes could "potentially" change the earth's axial tilt value ... but in this case the values we're talking about are in the order of just inches.

However, there is strong evidence indicating that the earth's axial tilt has shifted a whopping 3 degrees (or approx. 200 nautical miles) in the last 4000 year period. The change was initially quite rapid but over the last 1000 years or so has decreased so that since 1600 AD, the predicted and observed values have finally come into agreement.

But imagine a world and it's weather/climate patterns where most land masses were roughly 200 nautical miles north or south of their present day locations ... wind patterns would change, higher or lower local temperature differences, precipitation rates would change, ocean patterns would change, etc, etc ... some areas would become drier, some wetter ...

I kind of felt that way last August during Hurricane Irene. I have never been through a weather event like that. My area was hit pretty hard, and I live 65 miles northwest of NYC.

This winter it felt like I lived in the Carolina's. We had a foot of snow the day before Halloween and only saw another 5 inches of snow after that. This area usually gets three or four snowstorms with 8 inch accumulations in a winter. I don't mind not having to lift a snow shovel, but it was very weird.

reply to post by tauristercus

Around that time in pre-history, the earth's axial tilt was around 26 to 27 degrees compared to the current value of around 23 degrees.

As pointed out in your thread, ancient measurements of axial tilt cannot be relied upon. Nor can the assumptions of some archeoastromers.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by olliemc84

As your source points out, the axis of rotation was not changed by the earthquakes. The figure axis was. It had no effect on the axial tilt.

Gross also estimates that the Chile earthquake shifted Earth's figure axis by about three inches (eight centimeters).

Deviating roughly 33 feet (10 meters) from the north-south axis around which Earth revolves, the figure axis is the imaginary line around which the world's unevenly distributed mass is balanced.

To explain the difference, Keith Sverdrup, a seismologist at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, likened Earth to a spinning figure skater holding a rock in one hand. The rotational axis of the skater is still down the middle of the body, he said, but the skater's figure axis is shifted slightly in the direction of the hand holding the rock.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
It does seem that the oldest cities are now under water, which is why archaeology comes up woefully short in their estimation of "how old" civilization is, and where it originated. I haven't read much on it, but I imagine that the cutting edge of archaeology is now occurring by divers in the oceans of the world.

Wasn't Mohenjo Daru featured on "Ancient Aliens" as the city where it appears that a nuclear holocaust took place?

If I may ask, could you please provide some links or citation to these underwater cities? I could do a bit of Google-fu myself and find them, but wondering if you had any leads. I'm not saying you're making it up or anything, just would like to do some research on it (:

On topic though, this does seem like evidence for a world-wide flood, especially since there are over 270 surviving world-wide flood legends today - which makes one wonder, why would there be so many legends? It seems obvious to me, that there was indeed a world-wide flood occurring about 4,400 years ago, around 2400 BC - and some Creations believe that would have caused a mini Ice Age, lasting several hundreds years, and once the ice melted, it rose the waters levels a few extra thousand feet, "dividing" the land (as it says in the Bible, about Peleg!), giving just enough time for animals to migrate to their current locations. If that is true, then around when this occurred would have been right when these civilizations were "wiped out" - 3,900 years ago.

reply to post by Lionhearte

why would there be so many legends?

Because, as pointed out, many (all) civilizations began in coastal areas and river valleys. Tsunamis and floods. A tsunami or flood had the potential to wipe away an entire civilization. The stuff of legend.