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Where does gun ownership stand in light of the bible

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posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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Our Biblical examples:

Abraham - he was a peaceful man, who did not live or die by the sword. He used it only when sorely needed. The Book of Jasher states that when he died, all the people round about grieved for him, because "had been good to them all."

Esau - he was a hunter who lived and died by the sword. The Book of Jasher states that he murdered Nimrod (I think they were rivals as hunters), and later tried to have his brother Jacob killed, and that is why Jacob arrived at Laban's house without the servants, camels, or bride-price - Esau's family members stole it all. We see the end of him when he tried to interfere with the burial of his father Isaac. A brawl resulted, and a man from Jacob's side of the family did him in. He was no loss to anyone.

I use Jasher only to illustrate Biblical events which most folks know well, or at least I hope they do. Some things in Jasher are not reliable, but these snippets are. If you read widely in the Bible, the correct use of weapons becomes clear. I am a peaceful man, but I keep a .45 single-action auto in my nightstand, and I know well how to use it.




posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



If you read widely in the Bible, the correct use of weapons becomes clear.


Well, yes. But the events in the bible date back thousands of years ago...and if you are reading from the OT, it goes back even longer.

Just because OT patriarchs owned and used weapons does it mean the bible approves weapon ownership?



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



If you read widely in the Bible, the correct use of weapons becomes clear.


Well, yes. But the events in the bible date back thousands of years ago...and if you are reading from the OT, it goes back even longer.

Just because OT patriarchs owned and used weapons does it mean the bible approves weapon ownership?





I think it does. Read in the Book of Genesis (Chapter 14) what Shem/Melchizedek told Abram after Abram, his servants, and his allies had "smote" the confederate armies of some kings:

"Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: and blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand."

The idea is repeated many times. Does not Jesus "wage war in righteousness?"

For balance, God also makes it clear that He does not require huge armies or even weapons to deliver victory for those who trust Him.

In more modern history, we could examine the armed struggles of the Waldensians against the far superior armies of France (I think that was in the reign of Louis XIV), or the battles fought by the Afrikaaners who were fleeing British tyranny, and encountered the Zulus (I seem to recall that it was the Battle of Blood River, but I will check on that). Both groups were deeply committed to their God, and seemed to receive divine assistance.
edit on 3-6-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

edit on 3-6-2012 by Lazarus Short because: mmmmmmmm-mmmmmmmmmm-good



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



I think it does. Read in the Book of Genesis (Chapter 14) what Shem/Melchizedek told Abram after Abram, his servants, and his allies had "smote" the confederate armies of some kings:


So you basically hold that God in the bible, approves weapon ownership, and the act of making war whenever needed is justified by the bible?

Sincere question : Apart from weapon ownership, what other Old Testament teaching do you follow in everyday life? Or are there some OT teaching that you think are wrong, in our time? Like say, stoning adulterers in public, slave ownership etc?



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



I think it does. Read in the Book of Genesis (Chapter 14) what Shem/Melchizedek told Abram after Abram, his servants, and his allies had "smote" the confederate armies of some kings:


So you basically hold that God in the bible, approves weapon ownership, and the act of making war whenever needed is justified by the bible?

Sincere question : Apart from weapon ownership, what other Old Testament teaching do you follow in everyday life? Or are there some OT teaching that you think are wrong, in our time? Like say, stoning adulterers in public, slave ownership etc?


I think my posts and the Bible in general advocate arms for defense only, and the examples of those who did otherwise are instructive. The only exception is the conquest of Canaan, and that only because those people were (apparently) beyond redemption. Had the Canaanites been righteous, God would surely have given the children of Israel land elsewhere.

Miserable sinner that I am and have been, I have failed to keep the whole Law, but I try to lead a decent, clean life with God's Law in mind. The Old Testament teachings are for us too, but we know now that they were not (necessarily) meant for salvation, and we can not keep them perfectly anyway, as God requires. Only Jesus did, and God's Law makes provision for One who can keep the Law perfectly (don't recall chapter & verse). As I read through the Bible, I encountered the Laws, Statutes, Judgments, and Ordinances (only Ordinances are "nailed to the cross"), and I was impressed that an overview of the Law gives us a rough outline of the Mind of God, what He loves, what He hates, how He wants things done. That being so, I could see the deeper intent of the Law in such matters as scoffers dismiss God as some kind of psychopath. He is not.

Now as to your specific questions, I try to follow the teachings of the Bible, keeping in mind that the God of the Old Testament is "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail," which is to say, Jesus. As He said, not one little detail of the Law will pass away until this world-age is completed. Are we still obligated to keep the Law? Some say yes, and others no - you have to make up your own mind. Offhand, I can not think of any OT teachings which do not apply to our time, except for the outdated command to cast out and/or kill the inhabitants of Canaan/Palestine - you know of what I speak. Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper, but Jesus taught us to exercise mercy in the present age. As to slave keeping, I really don't care to have them, but remember that God laid down rather strict rules for the institution, including eventual release from bondage, and with a grubstake at that. It was intended to be a fall-back position of those whose means had failed thru circumstance. Do not confuse God's slavery with man's slavery, and do not confuse God's intent with man's tendencies.



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?




posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?



Why didn't you quote the entire sentence? You will get no more answer than that.



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?



Why didn't you quote the entire sentence? You will get no more answer than that.


Simply because what Jesus taught about mercy doesn't matter if you believe stoning anyone is "right and proper" as you put it.




posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?



Why didn't you quote the entire sentence? You will get no more answer than that.


Simply because what Jesus taught about mercy doesn't matter if you believe stoning anyone is "right and proper" as you put it.



Well, then, I can only assume that you didn't finish the sentence. I will not explain my position until you at least quote that sentence, instead of quoting even less of it, as you did in your last post.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?



He just said we are to excercise mercy in the present age. And we should. But thats not to say the law is wrong. One thing ancient Israel never had was jails. The law was a VERY STRONG deterrent to sin. Compare that society to the rampant sin/crime culture we have today.


edit on 4-6-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



If you read widely in the Bible, the correct use of weapons becomes clear.


Well, yes. But the events in the bible date back thousands of years ago...and if you are reading from the OT, it goes back even longer.

Just because OT patriarchs owned and used weapons does it mean the bible approves weapon ownership?


Considering that God is the same today as he was before Creation. If he was Kosher with Abraham defending his family then I am pretty sure he still is. Jesus only said "if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword", but defending your family is not the same as being a career murderer, he was telling Peter not to go down that road because there's no coming back from it. Once you take a life it changes you forever, there is no going back your innocence is gone thats why some soldiers that go to war and get their first kills can't handle the fact they took a life they can never give back and they turn their weapons on themselves and commit suicide.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Stoning of adulterers in public is right and proper,


You're kidding right?

Should we kill witches, false prophets and stuborn children as well?



Honestly, when i see what ornery children grow up to be i sometimes wonder if that isn't the wise choice. I've seen some aweful children grow up who would steal their dying mother's last nickle.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:43 PM
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NOTurTypical and Lonewolf, say on brothers! Thank you for your support. The comment about the Law being a deterrent to sin and crime makes me think back to the days when weapons and firearms were commonly carried in America. Manners were better and crime was lower, if I remember my history correctly. Seems to me that folks fell for the lie that we would be safer and better served by police protection, and put their guns away. Nowadays, it does not seem like protection at all.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 06:14 PM
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All three of you guys are hilarious


You actually are attempting to justify these passages from the bible?

Children are a product of their environment... if a child grows up "bad" theres only one reason... look to the people who raised them.

You all should know that these are some of the reasons why Christ came... because of people believing Death is the correct kind of punishment.

Sometimes i see hope in Christianity... but sometimes... like today... you people make me wonder.

Me thinks Jesus would be spinning in his grave.... if he had one

:shk:



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
All three of you guys are hilarious


You actually are attempting to justify these passages from the bible?

Children are a product of their environment... if a child grows up "bad" theres only one reason... look to the people who raised them.

You all should know that these are some of the reasons why Christ came... because of people believing Death is the correct kind of punishment.

Sometimes i see hope in Christianity... but sometimes... like today... you people make me wonder.

Me thinks Jesus would be spinning in his grave.... if he had one

:shk:


Oh, all right then! Heinlein said to never try to out-patience a cat, and you may just be refusing to quote my entire sentence as I asked (and create proper context) to shut me up. You win.

C'mon, Akragon, I'm sure you know the balance of justice and mercy. The Law says that if you commit a serious crime/sin, you die, or at least, deserve to. The wages of sin is death. Basic Bible. Jesus reminded the men who brought an adulterer before Him that mercy was necessary, as they were also sinners. Then the One who actually had the right to cast the first stone, told her to go and sin no more. That is what we are saying. What are you saying? Sometimes I think you just come here for an argument, like in that Monty Python skit.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Comedic relief is always a good thing. Glad I could bring cheer into your life today, glory to God.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


What im saying is... at a point in the past there was a law that stated these things which men adheared to...

This "law" that was supposedly from God completely contradicts Jesus...

IF the wages of sin is death, then evereyone should be dead... because obviously everyone sins according to the bible.

This basically means before Jesus came no man ever made it to "heaven" because as Jesus even said

Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

This also implies any stories within the bible that involved men talking to spirits or people that have passed are lies...

Now Jesus said specifically "only one is Good"... Yet this Good "God" gave a laws to men which killed and harmed many... he demanded sacrifices... He has a kill count of millions within the pages of the book... Yet Christians consider this to be from a Good God...

Jesus taught forgiveness and mercy as you said... (happy?) But the God of the OT was neither forgiving or merciful... Its just unfortunate most people can't see this distinction...

I come here to show people that the Christian God, and MY God... are not the same if the OT God is the christian God.

The message of Jesus has been twisted and manipulated over the millenia to suit the needs of the powers that be in the religious world. And the OT (and paul
) is how it is done.

The wages of sin is not death... because the spirit does not die... And the body means little, it is only a vessel... The wages of sin, is rebirth... what you give you will recieve

OR

you can complete the task you've been given... and progress.

By the way... i like monty python!




posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short
NOTurTypical and Lonewolf, say on brothers! Thank you for your support. The comment about the Law being a deterrent to sin and crime makes me think back to the days when weapons and firearms were commonly carried in America. Manners were better and crime was lower, if I remember my history correctly. Seems to me that folks fell for the lie that we would be safer and better served by police protection, and put their guns away. Nowadays, it does not seem like protection at all.


In terms of city crime, it was negligent except for the occasional bank robbery in the 1800's because everyone was packing heat and criminals were less likely to try to rob you when they knew that a hail of lead would be flying back at them. Sometimes gunfights did go down out in the western frontier but it was an occupational hazard. Not to mention the penalty for cattle rustling or horse thieving was having a posse set on you and getting hanged in the middle of nowhere and if they captured you and brought you back to town you would get hanged in front of the whole town while they all watched you piss your pants and crap yourself which was worse than being hanged in the middle of nowhere.

If you were really unlucky someone hired Pinkertons to go after you and they were the best trackers and impossible to shake from your trail. Spitting on the sidewalk or hitting your wife were hangable offenses.
edit on 4-6-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





You all should know that these are some of the reasons why Christ came... because of people believing Death is the correct kind of punishment.


Sometimes showing mercy means doing the right thing. If you allowed a murderer to walk free when you could have executed him and been done with it, then the blood of the people he goes on to murder afterwards is on your hands and you failed in your duty to love your neighbors by protecting them. Because of your negligence, innocent people would die. This goes back to the OT.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


So logically Saul should have been put to death...


And this really isn't about "murderers" per se... people are put to death for far less "crimes" in the OT

In truth i don't disagree with you... but what if we don't know who the murderer is? Shall we just go on assumptions or accusations... How many innocent people have died because of an assumption of guilt? Or even like the story you just told...


Not to mention the penalty for cattle rustling or horse thieving was having a posse set on you and getting hanged in the middle of nowhere and if they captured you and brought you back to town you would get hanged in front of the whole town while they all watched you piss your pants and crap yourself which was worse than being hanged in the middle of nowhere.


Death for "cattle rustling"... Really?!?


What of trusting the fact that God will deal with these people?

I much prefer the idea of letting them rot in jail then death... I mean what if they're found innocent after the fact?




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