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My concept of the Four man Survival Unit

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posted on May, 31 2012 @ 11:46 PM
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

Considering you work in the medical field, then perhaps you should consider that as a specialty to prep for. A well stocked medical kid can be a specialty kit just as much as a personal resource. Being in the medical field you can better plan out a medical kit have better access to acquire many supplies that could come in handy.

If your hospital resources become maxed out or you must abandon the facility, having a well stocked kit gives you the ability to still provide aid, or begin aid at a relocation point.

Perhaps you could even consider learning about herbal medicine so that you can grow, acquire and use such if the situation were to develop to a point where no medicines were available. You could still have a medical use.

posted on May, 31 2012 @ 11:48 PM
reply to post by Wolf321

Yea I definitely do want to prep a medical kit, that will be my next project bag in the future. The herbal medicines idea would be pretty awesome too. I Think another similar sized bag would be excellent for a medical setup.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 12:14 AM
not bad. actully stuff i never considerd.
my bug out bagsbeen depleted over the year i need to re-organize and restock. nothing major just enuff stuff to sustain me and family for a week in case on any tornados blizzards huricanes

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 12:58 AM
Based on my experience in Special Operations a 4 man team of any composition only has a combat mission life of about 96 hours before they become combat ineffective due to fatigue.

A man is only good for 1 hours of security at night which means no one will get more than 2-3 hours of sleep at any given time. A man can last under those conditions for 96 to 120 hours before his alertness is very degraded.
This is with experienced operators not wanabe armchair survivalists. I think most wanna be's would last about 6 miles the first day then 1-3 thereafter for movement. My daughter could track them.

The drain of the security rest cycle alone will make them ineffective after 96 hours; even with medications like provagil designed to enhance awareness they wil eventually crash.

Four men is a recon or observation patrol at best or maybe an enhanced sniper team, Of course claiming to be "a Commander of forces at some level" you learned all this at OBC the Advanced Course, ILE and maybe the Combined Staff College depending on your rank.

An ODA can only operate about 30-45 days without regular resupply by air or cache without severe mission capability degradation. You establish the rapport, meet the head G, then arrange for a demonstration of your skills - hope he likes it then call for the rest of the mission package. However, without a mission package you will not get very far (hunting rifles and shotguns will only get one so far).

Sure the smaller a team is the harder they are to spot on the move if they are good but if you are wanting to establish a base camp of some kind from which to make a safe haven for fugees you'll need at least a Company or more to secure farmland and non-looted assets.

That is the reason a Company it is the lowest level of Command in the military - for proper decision making, planning, organizational skills, sound judgment and maturity. A young Captain gets his Command at say 5-6 years in service platoon leaders are not in Command for a reason - they are the lowest level of officer leadership. Have to be a decent planner and more importantly a leader to inspire courage and drive.

A Company has at least three platoons to rotate security and rest cycles, along with some type of indirect fire support (at least a 60mm mortar element) would be needed to conduct effective security patrols with fire support outside the secured area to keep any intruders at range.

I'd say an ODA might be able to organize and train Americans into a fighting force especially because that is what we are trained to do - no language barrier either; sometimes that can be a very cumbersome issue.

Further, if you are going to plant crops and do other mundane tasks in hopes of supporting your element you will need to gain the support of the local population, (4 guys aren’t going to accomplish squat) you'll have to recruit and train more competent Soldiers to operate as units. This takes time - all that time people who want your stuff are going to do their best to come get it.

The lowest doctrinal level of a self sufficient independent operations is a Battalion Combined Arms Team (mechanics, cooks, supply types, drivers, vehicles, and legal with perhaps Civil affairs and joint forces support. You'd need cash, or trade items to get information or at least be willing to ask some enhanced questions.... can you do that PRO? I can, and have.

Of course you'd need SMEs in intelligence and the infiltrate the local population to establish networks of informants etc., to ensure you don’t make a worse mess…

To feed and support your unit (this does not include the civilians and technicians or refugees you’d collect along the way) you will need land and non-looted assets. These new arrivals may either be a liability (double agents) - or an asset (farmers, welders, tradesmen, Doctors etc.), Do you have the stones to vet them properly...maybe even a little manipulative or harsh? I can, I got the t-shirt.

Bottom line is 4 people are not going to get very far with any kind of restructuring/base camp plan.

To counter your force I'd just track them till they lost their combat effectiveness through fatigue then set up the capture/ambush and it'd be all over. While resting only one guy can really be on security at a time for any kind of sustainability. He can't see 360 degrees...

I think a decent team of men could knock out your group in 5-7 days of shadowing your “movements”. ( I think a group of hunters/farmers familiar with the area could do the same – maybe better.)

Even a sniper team could by wound one man and make the whole group dysfunctional - two to carry would dtriple the fatigue level then lower the morale and it's all over but the looting of your bodies.

Four is good for bug out but showing armed at a secured place will just as likely result in yout deaths as in your acceptance. All things will be in demand except mouths to feed.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:12 AM
reply to post by Golf66

This is no way an armed resistance. In the concept of survival you need to avoid conflicts except in self defense. Why would you endanger teammates by taking up arms against others...? You say in a survival situation you will have to kill other people....if that is the case what are we surviving for..?

The goal with this group is to hunt food, fish, grow a few small things and keep mobile. You are saying combat effectiveness, but I am not thinking combat, I am thinking very stealthy, setting up booby traps etc..

I doubt something like this would happen in the USA, maybe overseas though..

Even a sniper team

A sniper team can be detected by Thermal imaging systems.
edit on 013030p://6America/ChicagoFri, 01 Jun 2012 01:13:34 -0500 by THE_PROFESSIONAL because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:12 AM
That being said PRO you should reconstitute as a medical /rescue team support.Only knuckle draggers should really get out to fight.That would be mostly a support team though.All my recons were mostly in squads of 6 with including a medic who could shoot.

Ummm aren't you the guy who says (almost gleefully) that the US is going down?What do you think will happen in that event?Oh sure it will not be mad max but if the infrastructure fails(as you have CLEARLY postulated) you will require advanced security in the form of trained combatants
edit on 1-6-2012 by cavtrooper7 because: finished my point

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:16 AM
reply to post by cavtrooper7

Thanks, yea I am considering that as well. A medical kit bag would be a great addition as I should be good at it.

Side note: I added a thermal protection space blanket so that Thermal cameras cannot detect my body heat

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:20 AM
reply to post by cavtrooper7

Well lets think about what could happen:

We could get the draft and the mass protests
Mass job layoffs

I am thinking about what happened during Katrina and in Japan

Armed fights in the is possible, but unlikely as the govt would quickly put a stop to it



These require a MAJOR disaster to be ineffective, and I think they will still be operational.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:23 AM
Thermal mylar blankets don't work against thermal sights we tracked some Iraqis who tried this it breaks up the human form but you can still see through it.
Just watch the videos of the body heat seen through brick walls.
edit on 1-6-2012 by cavtrooper7 because: finished my point

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:25 AM
reply to post by cavtrooper7

Yea I know they are not fully effective but I just put it in there just because I think something is better than nothing. I was looking into some patents and research on this technology, its hard to counter.

This scope is 6500 bux:

Hehe, oh I can dream...I might get one in a few years lol.

Here is a great thread on this subject:
edit on 013030p://6America/ChicagoFri, 01 Jun 2012 01:30:29 -0500 by THE_PROFESSIONAL because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:32 AM
They have a new thing called "Angel Vision" that is even worse but that went black a few years back.That is why you are hearing about the coming drones.They are doing predictive mapping based on repeated movement with the data being analyzed daily by the appropriate mega program,no doubt in Utah soon. it would become more and more accurate as time goes by so that any errant activity will cause the drone to track the activity and alert necessary groups of it.These won't have weapons but they will be a control measure.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:36 AM
reply to post by cavtrooper7

What are they mapping exactly? The land patterns or thermal patterns on the ground given off by people, vehicles etc...? So basically they compare any current image to their past thermal image database and see if anything is off...?

Yea these drones are not cool, serious violation of privacy...
edit on 013030p://6America/ChicagoFri, 01 Jun 2012 01:37:23 -0500 by THE_PROFESSIONAL because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 07:13 AM
Nice job of organizing the electronics and kudos on the videos

I tend to disagree with using much of any electronic devices after TSHTF for several reasons:
1) Weight, bulk - how much does your electronics bag weigh? Could you hike 20 miles with this in addition to your food, water, clothing, shelter and self-defense/hunting items?
2) If THSTF cell phone service will be cut, GPS may be useless as well.
3) Detection - using cell phones, lasers. radios can be used to find you.
4) Survivability - how long will these electronics last in outdoor conditions, extreme heat/cold, dirt, etc? How easy can they be broken by small drops, wear and tear on cords?

Solar panels require being out in the open in full visibility for hours. Greater chances of being spotted, weather is often uncooperative.

A couple must-have items - a game ear listening device (they work well!) - Each person should have a monocular, camo netting for cover and keep bugs off and a water filter or tabs.

Your idea of breaking down duties is a good one, as it allows each to concentrate on a specialty. It's very difficult for any one person to learn all these skills to any degree of efficiency.
Each person will need to be able to hunt, set traps and do some foraging. No one person can provide for an entire group as such. When I worked with the Marine sniper school we developed team tracking tactics for 2. 3. 4 and 5 man groups. Formations should be established for travel and always have 1 watching your backtrail.

Your security man should learn basic mantracking skills. I can recommend good books on the subject if you want.

Hand signals (indian sign language) is invaluable as it allows silent communication.

Keep em' coming. I appreciate the thought and effort have put in to this.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 07:17 AM
reply to post by cavtrooper7

Gorgon stare can take in something like 38 square miles at one time and read every human sign, every source of heat and probably more.
DARPA has been saving their goodies for the drones.
That's why I'm sure things will get lively within the next year.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 12:08 PM
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL

They are first mapping movement of mass groups by normal patterns and slowly breaking it down to the individual.
It isn't possible to do that from orbit so they are probably coupling facial recognition as well as elaborate auditory programs.See the film "Stealth" and what that drone did in the film and you will get the idea.
Of course we are too well armed to act on it ....for now.
I forgot to mention there should be a homeopathic system studied for alternatives to elaborate chemicals for health as manufacturing would minimal.As an example I have COPD and my life is in danger without a rescue inhaler.Perhaps a specialist who knows herbs and "Foxfire" type cures would be an extremely valuable resource as the medication we now use doesn't cure anything just symptoms.Advanced trauma is of huge importance too but there is a huge amount of info about that field.I knew a Wiccan who was just about a doctor with her knowledge of plants.Wonderful lady and....she didn't have any cold parts at all

I think Dr leonard Calwell would be the best to train from:
edit on 1-6-2012 by cavtrooper7 because: Finished my point

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 01:36 PM

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
The goal with this group is to hunt food, fish, grow a few small things and keep mobile. You are saying combat effectiveness, but I am not thinking combat, I am thinking very stealthy, setting up booby traps etc..

When I say combat effectiveness I mean full alertness, clear ability to reason, make sound decisions and remain agile on your feet enough to not stumble under the weight of your own gear, and run or fire and maneuver if needed. Not the ability to engage in combat.

I am well aware of what you meant - a 4 man team regardless of the mission be it combat, reconnaissance, surveillance, or escape and evasion has a 96 hour window of effectiveness if they are going to pull any kind of security and rest plan at all.

If you have no security plan other than being sneaky and setting booby traps you will be dead in a week.

Once you are all asleep a group of girl scouts with P38 can openers can kill you all easily. A man can only pull effective alert security for 1-2 hours before he starts seeing things. Therefore max sleep any one person on the team will get at any time will be 3-5 hours and not all of that in one shot.

People (even hardened and trained operators) can only function on that amount of sleep for about 96 hours before their waking actions, reason, agility, acuity alertness, strength etc., are degraded as well. Once your abilities are degraded you make mistakes and mistakes will make you dead.

You have to have an active security plan - i.e. even if it is only one man alert with early warning devices like you mentioned your "team" will burn out for lack of effective sleep after 96 hours. There is a reason that sniper teams and surveillance missions and combat patrols are scheduled for no more than 96 hours before a rest and refit period is needed in a secure area.

Look, thousands of hours of study have been done on this in the military - you can take my work for it or not... I could care less. I'm just telling you 4 men tooling about trying to avoid all contact with people while hunting fishing and surviving will all be drained emotionally and physically after 96 hours to the point they will begin to make serious errors in judgment. Some men can take more some can take less... However, the mission planning profile is for 96 hours.

I don't know what your comment about thermal imaging finding snipers had to do with anything? The US Air force can launch a missile up a man's ass from 35,000 feet but in a situation you are describing I doubt many people will have an F22. I also doubt many will have FLIR, or even night vision devices either.

I could track and hunt down a team of four without any special equipment and if they are just going to hide and put out some booby traps while they all sleep I'd send my 14 year old daughter in to kill them and take their stuff.

Once men are worn out - the 96 hours I'm talking about the body will demand sleep and it will be deep and if discovered the last sleep you will ever have.

posted on Jun, 1 2012 @ 06:02 PM
I just came across this today. The Power Forward Trinity Systems . If your team has the ability to maintain vehicular transportation, this would be a stellar asset for a comm guy to contribute for recharging systems, or running stronger comm gear.

edit on 1-6-2012 by Wolf321 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 11:58 AM
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

Buckminster Fuller also observed that specialisation inherently reduces evolutionary fitness. A species which has designed itself to only perform a limited number of tasks, or requires a specialised environment, is not going to be able to survive outside of said environment.

A certain amount of specialisation is probably going to be inevitable, but ideally you want to avoid it as much as possible. A useful strategy that I've discovered is to attempt to identify the patterns or consistent elements, among seemingly vastly different fields. You realise, for example, that cooking is really a branch of chemistry; you create food by causing reactions (such as those induced by heating) or by combining ingredients in certain ways.

The real reason why you want a four man group, is not so that each can specialise at all, but for the degree of redundancy which that gives you; i.e., if one man in a four man squad is killed, you still have three left. Specialisation, then, actually subverts that principle, because if one man has knowledge that the other three don't, there is no redundancy for him. If he is killed, the group as a whole lose that knowledge.

So you actually want to keep your knowledge base as generic and closely reproducible as possible, for the most part.

posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 11:01 PM
reply to post by petrus4

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-- Robert A. Heinlein

Great quote.

I remember reading it then forgot what book it was in. I think he was a pioneer, but on an alien planet...

Without knowing the exact wording the concept is easy to remember.

I must be a success then as a jack of all trades and master of none.

I have much communication ability but my feeling is there will be little need for it. Probably need to get to my Father in Laws house out in the woods with my shotgun and lots of ammo and then keep low, kill tasty animals and grow stuff...

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posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 11:46 PM
reply to post by kawika

Go ahead be ready for the counter assault.

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