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BITCOIN [R]EVOLUTION - [Vid Feat Ron Paul]

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posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 



Btw all non petrol currencies are all pegged to a parent petrol currency, a money mother-ship of sorts, otherwise they cannot function.

So let me ask you again... what will happen when all the oil gets used? Why exactly do you assume a petrol currency is the only legitimate type of currency? Oh that's right, your indoctrination has taught you to think that way...


no, the FED does not print money out of nothing as such an action would cause mass inflation.




Maintain market confidence something a bitcoin money system could never manifest.

Fine, you don't trust it, then don't use it... I don't give a crap mate. It is still experimental software after all, so I don't care whether you think it will maintain market confidence or not, all I care about is explaining the advantages of bitcoin compared to Government fiat currency for those who might wish to try such a currency.


Maintain liquidity? What if a few people at the top of King's Mountain hoarded most of the bitcoins, cornered the bitcoin market and held its economy hostage?

No one could hoard "most" of the bitcoins because they would need to convince everyone else to sell their bitcoins to them. And even if a large amount of bitcoins does get hoarded by one entity the economy will not stutter, because each bitcoin is divisible by up to 8 decimal places (each BTC is really 100,000,000 units), the value of each unit will simply adjust to the amount in circulation.


No one can corner the USD.

And why exactly is that? For many of the same reasons no one can corner bitcoin.




posted on Jun, 24 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 



Btw all non petrol currencies are all pegged to a parent petrol currency, a money mother-ship of sorts, otherwise they cannot function.

So let me ask you again... what will happen when all the oil gets used? Why exactly do you assume a petrol currency is the only legitimate type of currency? Oh that's right, your indoctrination has taught you to think that way...




what will happen when all the oil gets used?


In regard to money it will simply be tied to whatever resources are needed for human survival.



Why exactly do you assume a petrol currency is the only legitimate type of currency?


At this point petrol currency is because petrol is the overriding dominate resource that is needed for human survival and thus a currency must be tied to it otherwise it cannot function as a currency. Those pesky upstream demand pulls that are needed to function a currency. At the headwaters of our economy are oil and gas wells along with coal mines. The producers of those resources demand USDs which in turn force you to pay your bills energy bills in USDs and why you demand USD's from your employer. Your employer needs energy to function their business so it all comes full circle. I guess you are an Aussie, and still your currency is pulled up stream by the same forces as the USD. There is a popular misunderstanding that the Bretton Woods system came to a close in the early 1970's and the term "fiat money" was invoked as those who invoked the term had no understanding whatsoever of the technicals involved with exactly how modern petrol currencies function and how they gain legitimacy. I took the liberty to explain in lay terms the basic dynamics involved. So know you know if you choose to accept the truth.




Oh that's right, your indoctrination has taught you to think that way...


My indoctrination was cracking the books and studying hard wee into the am hours many times. Before the internet was available as a lesson guide.



no, the FED does not print money out of nothing as such an action would cause mass inflation.




Those charts are about money loaned out and in use calculated on a weekly bases. It's not in lockstep with inflation which should tell you something.


Maintain market confidence something a bitcoin money system could never manifest.

Fine, you don't trust it, then don't use it... I don't give a crap mate. It is still experimental software after all, so I don't care whether you think it will maintain market confidence or not, all I care about is explaining the advantages of bitcoin compared to Government fiat currency for those who might wish to try such a currency. But how can you explain credibly in comparison based on your believing in popular myths evident in your invocation of the term "fiat currency (money)?" I'm sure you are an expert regarding bicoins, but you are ignorant about modern currencies and their functionality, what makes the currency function in the marketplace.


Maintain liquidity? What if a few people at the top of King's Mountain hoarded most of the bitcoins, cornered the bitcoin market and held its economy hostage?

No one could hoard "most" of the bitcoins because they would need to convince everyone else to sell their bitcoins to them. And even if a large amount of bitcoins does get hoarded by one entity the economy will not stutter, because each bitcoin is divisible by up to 8 decimal places (each BTC is really 100,000,000 units), the value of each unit will simply adjust to the amount in circulation.

Oh goody now we are getting somewhere. You very articulately explained how the FED too as with your bitcoin really does not print money out of thin air, and simply maintains USD value by managing the amount of dollars in circulation. One tool is the Adjusted Monetary Base. Read this paper on how the FED uses the tool research.stlouisfed.org...


No one can corner the USD.

And why exactly is that? For many of the same reasons no one can corner bitcoin. YES!


And here you held the answers all along without realizing it, or you just simply like to argue with folks for the sake of arguing and for purposes of bumping your thread.

edit on 24-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: of quote box issues.



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 



In regard to money it will simply be tied to whatever resources are needed for human survival.

Nice play on words... the USD is not "tied" to or "backed" by or "pegged" to oil or gold or any other commodity, it has no intrinsic "standard"... it can be created out of thin air and each note does not represent anything of real intrinsic value. The USD is simply "propped up" by the fact it is the master petrodollar... that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Each USD is not guaranteed to be backed up by any amount of oil. However, as I explained to you via PM, although it's not backed by anything with real intrinsic value, the USD is "backed by debt"... here is what I said for our readers:


The Federal Reserve trades USD notes (which only it is allowed to print), and it trades those notes in return for Government bonds which represent debt owed by the Government. In this way they Government debt is "monetized", which is the prime cause of inflation. To vaporize their debt in this magical way called "monetization" they essentially rob money from every single American citizen, it's exactly like a "hidden tax". But getting back to the main point here, debt has no intrinsic value, and the Government never intends to pay back that debt anyway. So in technical terms the USD is an unbacked fiat currency, it has no backing or standard, such as with a gold standard currency, that is why the value is completely at the whim of the FED who can print more money when ever they want. In fact a recent audit of the Federal Reserve revealed they have released at least $16 trillion in secret loans to banks and private entities which they are connected to, including foreign entities too.


Federal Reserve Notes are backed by the assets of the Federal Reserve Banks, which serve as collateral under Federal Reserve Act Section 16. These assets are generally Treasuries [Government debt] which have been purchased by the Federal Reserve through its Federal Open Market Committee in a process called debt monetizing. (See Monetization.) This monetized debt can increase the money supply, either with the issuance of new Federal Reserve Notes or with the creation of debt money (deposits). This increase in the monetary base leads to larger increase in the money supply through the fractional-reserve banking as deposits are lent and re-deposited where they form the basis of further loans.

Federal Reserve Note


Also keep in mind that the Federal Reserve has no gold at all (as claimed by the former Chairman of the Federal Reserve)... also note that I am not claiming an unbacked "fiat currency" is technically a bad thing, I am claiming a fiat currency which is constantly inflated is a bad thing (which you would already know if you had of read this page). The reason is because any fiat currency which undergoes rampant inflation looses value very quickly, and it steals wealth from those who save that currency and it causes the price of all commodities to go up because the real value of each dollar (the purchasing power of each dollar) becomes worth less, therefore their wages also need to be constantly increased, which doesn't often happen quick enough.


At this point petrol currency is because petrol is the overriding dominate resource that is needed for human survival and thus a currency must be tied to it otherwise it cannot function as a currency. Those pesky upstream demand pulls that are needed to function a currency. At the headwaters of our economy are oil and gas wells along with coal mines. The producers of those resources demand USDs which in turn force you to pay your bills energy bills in USDs and why you demand USD's from your employer. Your employer needs energy to function their business so it all comes full circle.

Once again you are mixing "tied to" with "propped up by". Yes it's true, most companies are compelled to buy and sell oil using USD, and that is why the USD is propped up by oil trade. The fact that oil is typically traded in USD is a reason to use the USD, it makes the USD desirable. That's why the United States is absolutely afraid of any country that might attempt to start trading oil in another currency (as Saddam attempted to do with the EURO and as Gaddafi attempted to do with the Gold Dinar). However, oil is not the only important resource on this Earth. In Australia most companies sell gas and electricity for AUD's. Bitcoin is already used to trade all sorts of commodities, you cannot claim one type is more legitimate than the rest... but the point is, all a currency needs is something which makes it useful and desirable. The USD is useful and desirable because it is typically used to trade oil. BTC is useful and desirable for some of the reasons I listed a few posts back:


* the amount of bitcoins in circulation is completely predictable
* it is a deflationary currency with a limited quantity of coins
* it is completely impossible to create counterfeit bitcoins
* each coin can be sufficiently divided up, i.e. granularity
* bitcoins cannot be manipulated/inflated by the Government
* your accounts cannot be frozen or made inaccessible
* all your coins can be stored as data on your computer
* send bitcoins directly to other people without a middle man
* send money all around the world at any time with low fees
* no central financial authority and no single point of failure
* built on trusted and tested cryptographic technology


These are the reasons people WANT and DESIRE bitcoins. These are the reasons people are USING bitcoins to buy and sell MANY different things. These things include, but are not limited to: video games, music, electronic devices, computer hardware, website hosting, food, clothing, etc. These things may not be oil, but many of them are important commodities with a large market. They are NOT FORCED to use bitcoins at all, they FREELY CHOOSE to use bitcoins because they like the way it works. People also save bitcoins in the same way as people who save gold, because the bitcoin currency is designed to be a deflationary currency and not an inflationary one. You have not presented one single legitimate reason to prove how all of this is merely some type of illusion... in fact I fail to understand what you are really implying as your final conclusion. Are you saying the BTC will crash?


You very articulately explained how the FED too as with your bitcoin really does not print money out of thin air, and simply maintains USD value by managing the amount of dollars in circulation.

The divisibility/granularity of each BTC has very little relation to the act of creating more units. When they print money out of thin air they do not increase the divisibility of each dollar, they increase the amount of dollars and thus increasing the amount of units. Yes, the end result is a more granular money base, but the cost is inflation. Bitcoin is already highly granular by nature, and it's not designed to be an inflationary currency, the total amount of bitcoins which can ever exist is limited to 21 million (with each BTC being divisible by 8 decimal places). Furthermore, the US dollar is not carefully "managed", it is constantly inflated at break neck speeds in order to keep monetizing the rapidly increasing debt. In fact, since 1913 and the founding of the Federal Reserve, the US dollar has lost 95 percent of its value... this rampant inflation will be addressed more clearly in the next point.


Those charts are about money loaned out and in use calculated on a weekly bases. It's not in lockstep with inflation which should tell you something.

The first chart is about the amount of actual Federal Reserve Notes printed and put into circulation, which shows us exactly how fast and by what amount the money base has been increased. Clearly you should understand that is what causes inflation: increasing the money supply. And yes, if they carefully managed the money supply and printed a little bit of new money here and there, relative to factors such as economic growth and population growth, then they wouldn't cause dramatic amounts of inflation; in fact when done properly the real value or purchasing power of the currency should remain fairly steady... however, the second graph plots the value of the USD relative to gold, which is a very robust way to indicate the purchasing power of any fiat currency. Clearly, it shows us that the dollar has NOT remained steady. It has lost a vast amount of value, and do you really think it's a coincidence that it started losing value at a rapid rate when money printing started to increase at a rapid rate (as noted by comparing the 1st and 2nd graph)?

Now please respond to the hard points I am making here without regurgitating to the same nonsensical rhetoric over and over again...
edit on 25/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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It is really ironic that you would use Ron Paul in this video (out of context obviously) to promote something he would be opposed to. When he is speaking out against the dollar it isn't just against the dollar, but all worthless currency. That includes bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not better (actually worse) than the dollar and other fiat currency. If a paper dollar isn't worth anything, what makes you think an imaginary one is?

When Paul speaks out against the U.S. dollar and fiat currency he does so in support of only ONE thing: Realy money. Gold, Silver, Platinum etc.

Also.. I would remove the voice or the music from the video. One or the other, both together just makes for a cluttery mess.
edit on 25-6-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



It is really ironic that you would use Ron Paul in this video (out of context obviously) to promote something he would be opposed to. When he is speaking out against the dollar it isn't just against the dollar, but all worthless currency. That includes bitcoin.

Yes I am clearly well aware that Ron Paul would be opposed to Bitcoin because it isn't backed by anything of intrinsic value... but that wasn't what mattered, what mattered was what he actually said in that video. If you pay careful attention, Ron Paul is arguing against fiat money for one simple reason: inflation. He holds up the silver coin and talks about how that coin has held its value extremely well over a long period of time, he talks about how much value the dollar has lost since the inception of the Federal Reserve, and he talks about the importance of allowing us to use alternative currencies.

As I explain in this article, there is nothing inherently wrong with fiat money, the problem occurs when said fiat currency is poorly managed and the money supply is excessively increased over small amounts of time, which results in inflation. Inflation steals wealth from each and every citizen who uses that currency, it's a "hidden tax" as Ron Paul puts it. That is the real reason why Ron Paul doesn't like unbacked fiat currencies, because they can easily be manipulated and poorly managed by simply printing more money out of thin air.

Because has two major features which fix these problems with fiat money. First of all, no one can control when or how many bitcoins are put into circulation, it's a completely automated system which is designed to slowly leak bitcoins into the system until all of them have been created... and that is the second feature, there is a precise limit to how many bitcoins will ever exist. It is not designed to be an inflationary currency... just like gold, the quantity will be limited to a finite amount. With these problems gone Ron Paul has nothing left to talk about...

And the last point is, bitcoin cannot be controlled or stopped by any Government or corporation, it's completely decentralized and the power to control ones wealth is put directly into ones hands. No one has the ability to take that money from you, the system can't blacklist your wealth, and no one can freeze your account or stop you from transferring bitcoins to anyone else. It's an alternative currency which can be used by anyone at any time whether the Government likes it or not. They have no power to stop it, let alone a legal basis for doing so.
edit on 25/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2012 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 





Nice play on words... the USD is not "tied" to or "backed" by or "pegged" to oil or gold or any other commodity, it has no intrinsic "standard"...


We keep folks like him in power and protect his ownership and trade of his oil on the world open market upload.wikimedia.org... in return he agrees to trade his oil on the world open market in USDs. That creates an upstream demand for the USD as everyone needs oil, and oil is at the headwaters of economy. They are the springs that feed the global economy. That's why the USD has value, and is not a fiat curacy.

If you want to believe popular disinformation myths, fine!

I'm not responding to the rest of your last post as you need to A pull your head out of your------ and get educated, with an actual academic education when learning the subject of the functionality of modern currencies. Until you get educated...



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


So more of the same nonsensical rhetoric followed by a sad cop out... pfftttt what else could I expect.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 07:22 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Yeah.. and why isn't bitcoin subject to the same problem? I know you said it isn't, but I completely disagree. You are trusting the people that create bitcoin like people trust the federal reserve. Inflation is possible with both bitcoin and dollars the same. You are putting way to much faith into a scam that is actually less secure than the dollar bill. What Paul says in that video is relevant to the dollar and bitcoin the same because they are both at risk of inflation regardless what bitcoin tells you. If it become anything other than a novelty it would be subject to inflation.

There is a set amount. Who knows what that amount is? Can you say that it is absolutely impossible for anyone to alter this system be it the creators or anyone else? Trusting that would be no different than trusting the federal reserve and downright foolish to believe.
edit on 26-6-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 




Inflation is possible


And that's a good thing because you always have to inject some amount of inflation in to the money pool so to maintain liquidity in the marketplace. Now those injections are backed by deposits. With the USD those deposits are known to you as CDs offered as little as 5k/5yr a pop.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



You are trusting the people that create bitcoin like people trust the federal reserve. Inflation is possible with both bitcoin and dollars the same.

It's NOTHING like trusting the Federal Reserve. The network is designed to release "rewards" to miners who help compute transactions, the rewards are released at periodic moments in time. No one can change the rate at which bitcoins are created, no one can choose to create bitcoins when ever they want, they must dedicate their computing power to the bitcoin network (which in turn makes it stronger) and "mine" for rewards. Most importantly however, once all the bitcoins are created no more will be created, the limit is 21 million bitcoins... you can think of this is as the production period, this is the way in which we are slowly releasing bitcoins into the system via a method which gives everyone a chance to get some, and it's done in a way which requires work to be done (highly complex computer calculations - lots of electricity), they aren't simply created as easily or as cheaply as printing out some pretty paper notes. Also worth noting is that the amount of bitcoins created is very slow compared to how fast the Federal Reserve creates new money.


There is a set amount. Who knows what that amount is? Can you say that it is absolutely impossible for anyone to alter this system be it the creators or anyone else?

Yes there is a set amount, I just told you it's 21 million. Everyone knows that amount because it is built into the software. And as I have explained, and as the video explains, one cannot simply modify the software to get around that limit... it simply doesn't work that way. The actual rules and financial history is controlled by a decentralized P2P network, that's the only reason bitcoin is trusted... even the people who created the software can't change the rules themselves because each and every person participating in the network decides the rules. You can think of it like a system where the "majority rules", the majority set the rules. If the majority of people participating in the network decided to use modified software which allowed new bitcoins to be created then it could technically happen, however that's a big IF... it's extremely unlikely everyone will decide to do that because we want a limited quantity currency. And if you're worried about hackers trying to gain the majority advantage be aware that bitcoin is the most powerful computing network on the face of this planet (presently at 157.40 PetaFLOPS). A 51% attack would require most of the supercomputers in the world.
edit on 26/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


Except there has to be some body to govern over the network. It would have to be tweaked, managed, protected. So there has to be someone we trust with the "key."

Whoever that is is no different than the Fed Reserve.

The amount is 21 million. I am sure each has a number just as each dollar bill has a number, but how will the average person be assured that that bitcoin isn't digitally duplicated. I assure you as we press into a digital age it will be possible to counterfeit any currency.
edit on 27-6-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



Except there has to be some body to govern over the network. It would have to be tweaked, managed, protected. So there has to be someone we trust with the "key."

No... didn't you read a word I just said, everyone who participates in the network are the people who "govern" it. The basic rules or protocols of the network are hardly ever tweaked, but when they are, those changes will only take effect when the majority decide to use the new software which contains the changes. All transactions are governed by the people who participate in the network, which is mostly miners who contribute vasts amount of computing power as they "mine" for new bitcoins. And as I just explained, if the developers released a new version of the bitcoin software which created a limit higher than 21 million, it wouldn't work unless the majority of people in the network decided to use that new software. That is how the network is managed and tweaked, what ever the majority decides is what happens. There is no master key or anything else. The project is open source so anyone can see how it works and see any changes made to it.


The amount is 21 million. I am sure each has a number just as each dollar bill has a number, but how will the average person be assured that that bitcoin isn't digitally duplicated. I assure you as we press into a digital age it will be possible to counterfeit any currency.

The answer to this question is the main key feature of bitcoin. Instead of attempting to explain this myself I will let Wikipedia explain it for me:

Prior to the invention of Bitcoin, electronic commerce systems could not securely operate without relying on a central authority to prevent double-spending. Nakamoto sidestepped this requirement for Bitcoin by employing a proof-of-work approach in a peer-to-peer network to reach consensus between peers on the validity of transactions.
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Every generating node in the Bitcoin network collects all the unacknowledged transactions it knows of in a file called a block, which also contains a reference to the previous valid block known to that node.
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The network confirms a transaction when it records it in a block. Further blocks generated further confirm it. After six confirmations, most Bitcoin clients considers a transaction confirmed beyond reasonable doubt.
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Eventually, the block chain contains the cryptographic ownership history of all coins from their creator-address to their current owner-address. Therefore, if a user attempts to reuse coins he already spent, the network rejects the transaction.

So it's not really a process of creating fraudulent bitcoins, it's a process of altering the actual blockchain because the network keeps track of what accounts hold what bitcoins by recording it in the blockchain. As I said before, the majority of the network will decide what version of the transaction history is legitimate, meaning they will decide what version of the blockchain is the legitimate "main" blockchain. As I already mentioned, the computing power required to overcome the majority decision is absolutely insane and it's not feasible anyone will achieve it, especially considering the network has been operating for a few years now and it has been much weaker in the past, but has never been compromised.
edit on 27/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


So if there are changes and several million people own bitcoin they all have to cast their vote?

I read it and I know what you mean. I am being a bit tongue and cheek here, but I am telling you it cannot and will not work like so many bitcoin fanatics have claimed. There is always a potential for corruption with a currency with no actual value. Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Rhodium have a finite amount on Earth. They exist, are rare, and have many uses which gives them their value. It is something real. Bitcoin is no different than the US dollar and is not in the least bit compareable to silver and gold or real money.





So it's not really a process of creating fraudulent bitcoins, it's a process of altering the actual blockchain because the network keeps track of what accounts hold what bitcoins by recording it in the blockchain. As I said before, the majority of the network will decide what version of the transaction history is legitimate, meaning they will decide what version of the blockchain is the legitimate "main" blockchain.


When you have this happening in multiple millions of exchanges of billions of bitcoins or fractions of bitcoins (I know only 21 million, but that is only experimental in order for this idea to become a real serviceable currency worldwide there would have to be more or division of the current amounts) you are going to have problems. Whether it's a disruption by a virus or counterfeit coins that makes the system seize both the bitcoin that has been transacted as well as the double and then someone's assets are frozen or people genuinely manipulating this history of the coins. Do the record all transactions a bitcoin goes through or do more recent ones replace older ones? Do you really believe that this system is completely untouchable? That it is impossible that something could go awry? That would be truly foolish to believe. People always find a way.
edit on 28-6-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



I read it and I know what you mean. I am being a bit tongue and cheek here, but I am telling you it cannot and will not work like so many bitcoin fanatics have claimed.

It has been working for several years as claimed....


Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Rhodium have a finite amount on Earth. They exist, are rare, and have many uses which gives them their value. It is something real. Bitcoin is no different than the US dollar and is not in the least bit compareable to silver and gold or real money.

It costs quite a bit of money to produce each new bitcoin actually. More importantly however, they "are rare and have many uses"... that is what "gives them their value". Gold is still being mined from the Earth, and bitcoins are still being "mined", but of these things have a finite amount. That is why bitcoin is often called a "digital commodity". Bitcoin has properties of both fiat money and limited quantity commodities but it can't really be classified as either one.


When you have this happening in multiple millions of exchanges of billions of bitcoins or fractions of bitcoins (I know only 21 million, but that is only experimental in order for this idea to become a real serviceable currency worldwide there would have to be more or division of the current amounts) you are going to have problems.

Try reading this thread. Each bitcoin can be divided by 8 decimal places. I can send 1 or 0.1 or 0.01 bitcoins or even lower amounts. I could theoretically send 0.00000001 BTC, although it's not really useful for such tiny amounts yet because the transaction fee will be larger than the amount sent. You should also be aware this currency has been used by people all around the world for several years as I already mentioned, extremely large and extremely small amounts are exchanged all the time. The system is completely capable of handling such transactions and many of them. In fact the network can easily scale beyond the level of traffic VISA sees globally today.


Whether it's a disruption by a virus or counterfeit coins that makes the system seize both the bitcoin that has been transacted as well as the double and then someone's assets are frozen or people genuinely manipulating this history of the coins.

You clearly haven't understood a single thing I've said. Making counterfeit coins is completely impossible under any circumstance. Yes, it is possible for an attacker to change the history of the coins in a 51% attack, however what they can change is very limited.


What an attacker can do once the network is taken over is quite limited. Under no circumstances could an attacker take anybody else's money. An attacker's capabilities are limited to taking back their own money that they very recently spent, and preventing other people's transactions from receiving confirmations. Such an attack would be very costly in resources, and for such meager benefits there is little rational economic incentive to do such a thing.

Furthermore, this attack scenario would only be feasible for as long as it was actively underway. As soon as the attack stopped, the network would resume normal operation.

Bitcoin Myths



Do the record all transactions a bitcoin goes through or do more recent ones replace older ones?

All the transactions are recorded in the blockchain. And I know what you are going to say next so don't bother. Yes all the transactions are public and easy to see in the blockchain, but it's still very hard to work out who owns what addresses, and you can make a new address within milliseconds without an internet connection. There are also ways to make transactions even more anonymous but they are really only used by criminals who need maximum protection. I don't want to promote the use of bitcoin for illegal activities, but it is so anonymous that it has become the number one currency of choice for online drug trade and other illicit activities. So you can avoid the debate about bitcoin being a NWO currency. In fact 99% of this debate could have been avoided if you had watched the video before posting.


Do you really believe that this system is completely untouchable? That it is impossible that something could go awry? That would be truly foolish to believe. People always find a way.

No I do not believe it is "completely untouchable", but I understand the system enough to trust it enough to use it. I trust banks less than I trust bitcoin. Bank networks are hacked all the time yet the bitcoin network has never been compromised. In fact look at this story from a few days ago: 60 Million to 2 Billion Euro Stolen from 60+Bank Accounts. Trust whom ever you want.



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 




Surely you can understand the difference between mining something that his intrisic value such as gold, and mining something that's only value is use as currency and the work related to producing it. It is exactly the same as the dollar. The dollar isn't actually worth what it is proclaimed to be worth, and the bitcoin is not actually worth the work that goes into mining them.

You have to see that they are worthless. Bitcoins are basically a hot potato and at any second they could become worthless if someone decided not to accept them in exchange for anything. "the are rare and have many uses" is pretty vague. Bitcoin serves no other purpose. In my opinion it is actually another step in the wrong direction it's basically like "how could we make the dollar worse."

The only reason it has functioned for a few years is because it's just a novelty. Fortunately the real world is there as a safety net. When there is NO real risk then something like bitcoin can flourish because the risk is another large part of how money and markets function. That is the factor that makes this whole experiment botched.



posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 12:33 AM
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Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


You have to see that they are worthless. Bitcoins are basically a hot potato and at any second they could become worthless if someone decided not to accept them in exchange for anything.


Bingo! I wouldn't accept them because my local gas-station, grocery store etc wont and neither will my bank. It's why I also don't own any precious metals.

My storage facilities are of things that people actually need.

These are what I call my sweethearts NYSE:XOM

www.google.com...

www.google.com...

Why> Example www.sacbee.com...

I listen to this instrumental of "My Favorite Things"
in afternoon right after close when I add up all my daily weekday profits by simply doing nothing. I can because I don't listen to insane idiots like... lh6.googleusercontent.com... And a.images.blip.tv... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee somebody get a straightjacket and the men in white coats for those two.



posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 12:35 AM
link   
I would had posted a link to my darling XOM, but this site will not link to it for some reason so here is the Google page to it. www.google.com... 9.12.11.0.1.1.0.127.1280.0j11.11.0...0.0.X0Uiiz5JQRs

Beautiful isn't it? Because they sell something people will always need, and they only accept USD for it. That's why you all have to too.


"Don't leave home without it." wallstreetsectorselector.com...

edit on 30-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: I tried to get a link to function.



posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 12:53 AM
link   

I would had posted a link to my darling XOM, but this site will not link to it for some reason so here is the Google page to it.
Try putting the link inside URL tags... like this. There's your "darling XOM"...



Beautiful isn't it? Because they sell something people will always need, and they only accept USD for it. That's why you all have to too.
I'll accept what ever I want thank you very much. I don't "have to" accept legal government tender, it's perfectly legal for me to trade with bitcoin, and I do all the time.
edit on 30/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
 



Surely you can understand the difference between mining something that his intrisic value such as gold, and mining something that's only value is use as currency and the work related to producing it. It is exactly the same as the dollar. The dollar isn't actually worth what it is proclaimed to be worth, and the bitcoin is not actually worth the work that goes into mining them.
The main use of gold is as a store of value and much of the value of gold comes from the work related to producing it. But actually the value of bitcoin isn't really determined by the cost of producing each bitcoin, it's more related to simply just the supply and demand of bitcoin... much like gold is. Gold isn't really worth what it is proclaimed to be worth, that "intrinsic value" is decided by what people are willing to pay for it. If tomorrow a few million extra people suddenly tried to buy gold that extra demand would push the price up. When dealing with a finite resource it's really demand which dictates the value... and that's the same for bitcoin. As more and more people start to adopt bitcoin the price will continue to rise. The US dollar would have the same type of deflationary property were it not for the constant printing of new money at rapid rates. Yes it's true that bitcoin has no real physical counterpart, but such a property is not necessary as long as it's not easy or cheap to create each unit like it is with printing government fiat money which has neither any physical commodity real world backing or any real cost associated with creating more notes.

Furthermore, there are many advantages bitcoin has over both fiat money and precious metals:

Unlike gold, bitcoins are:

* easy to transfer
* easy to secure
* easy to verify
* easy to granulate

Unlike fiat currencies, bitcoins are:

* predictable and limited in supply
* not controlled by a central authority (such as The Fed)

Unlike electronic fiat currency systems, bitcoins are:

* potentially anonymous
* freeze-proof
* faster to transfer
* cheaper to transfer

Bitcoin Myths



You have to see that they are worthless. Bitcoins are basically a hot potato and at any second they could become worthless if someone decided not to accept them in exchange for anything. "the are rare and have many uses" is pretty vague. Bitcoin serves no other purpose. In my opinion it is actually another step in the wrong direction it's basically like "how could we make the dollar worse."
No, they would not become worthless if "someone" decided not to accept them. They would become worthless is nearly everyone decided not to accept them, which would not happen unless the currency was hacked or something... and we have already discussed in detail how hard it is to compromise the network. And if you want to start debating the cryptographic security of bitcoin just be aware that all banks use the same encryption technology as bitcoin and if the encryption security of bitcoin was broken every single bank and also every single service on the internet would become completely vulnerable to attacks. The entire internet would crash and most likely a great deal of your money would disappear with it. Furthermore, you are the one who first tried to defend precious metals by saying "they are rare and have many uses", I simply used your own vague rationalization to explain why people use bitcoin. I have already provided a long detailed list which expands on this... which I will now post for a 3rd time because it's clear you don't want to read anything already posted in this thread:

* the amount of bitcoins in circulation is completely predictable
* it is a deflationary currency with a limited quantity of coins
* it is completely impossible to create counterfeit bitcoins
* each coin can be sufficiently divided up, i.e. granularity
* bitcoins cannot be manipulated/inflated by the Government
* your accounts cannot be frozen or made inaccessible
* all your coins can be stored as data on your computer
* send bitcoins directly to other people without a middle man
* send money all around the world at any time with low fees
* no central financial authority and no single point of failure
* built on trusted and tested cryptographic technology

edit on 30/6/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 30 2012 @ 01:40 AM
link   
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 



Bingo! I wouldn't accept them because my local gas-station, grocery store etc wont and neither will my bank. It's why I also don't own any precious metals.
Yeah but what you seem to forget is that GogoVicMorrow would tell you it's better to store your wealth in precious metals rather than Government fiat money. In fact your beliefs are completely at odds with both of our beliefs. We still agree on the fact that fiat money which can be printed out of thin air at virtually no cost are completely useless. What I'm trying to explain to GVM is why bitcoin fixes many of the problems we see in inflationary government currencies.

Neither of us agree with the type of monopolistic fiat system you are promoting. But your reasoning is above is still flawed, I have already provided a link to a map of real world shops around the world which accept bitcoin. Sure there aren't more than a few dozen at the moment, but PayPal was only accepted on a few dozen websites when it fist popped onto the scene. Furthermore, bitcoin is first and foremost an internet currency designed for online transactions. There are already hundreds, if not a few thousand websites which accept bitcoin.

I have already provided a short list of some of the things which can be purchased with bitcoins online. Online shopping is the new trend. A lot of people these days are buying less from real world shops and buying more from online shops because it's usually cheaper and far more convenient. If you want to only stick to using fiat government currency just because most other people do then be my guest, I'm not going to stop you. I believe in having the choice to use what ever you want, I believe in having alternatives... which is exactly what bitcoin is.



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