Church goers cheer 4 year old singing ain't no homos gonna make it to heaven

From what I just read the pastor has gone into hiding.

That would also be quite sad, because there should be room to discuss notions of gender and sexuality in the Bible, and to decide what they can and cannot mean.

The broader context is that the Israelites were taking on foreign customs or capitulating to Roman colonialism (with the resulting damage to family life and alcoholism), and it seems that at this point dietary laws and circumcision were still a prerequisite to become a full Christian.

At the end of the OP's clip it highlights the word "effeminate" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
Yet we have no idea what that meant, since notions of masculinity and femininity change all the time.
In the traditional dress the Israelites had to grow beards, and long hair was shameful (1 Corinthians 11:14): "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
Even women are admonished to be very modest in their attire in 1 Timothy chapter 2:8-15.
Other than that we have little direct idea of what it means, and pants was something the more "effeminate" (by our standards) Persians wore.
It could possibly refer to taking on Greek customs, shaving, or some form of cross-dressing temple prostitution, like the hijras in India today.
Possibly more controversially, Hebrew men who wanted to partake in Greek wrestling were encouraged to practice prepuce stretching and regeneration, which was also a rejection of traditional masculinity.
Paul eventually won out over other church fathers with his view that uncircumcised gentiles could join the sect without the ritual, but others made circumcision even more restrictive for Hebrew men.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and Romans 1:26-32 it also mentions a whole list of sinful people, including drunks and adulterers (according to Jesus that includes divorced and remarried heterosexuals, whose only salvation is to become celibate).
In Romans 1:23 it clearly speaks about idol worship, so what follows seems to be connected to that.

In the reference to men and women indulging homosexual lusts it appears they gave up their "natural" desires, so these people were not gays and lesbians in the modern sense.
They were people who went against their desires in lust, or a kind of situational homosexuality connected to pagan rituals and customs.

The term "homosexual" only appears in 1869, so it is very inappropriate to use for the context of Corinthians or Romans.

Considering the list of people in these verses, including those who use envy, murder, debate ... boasters ... disobedient to parents (Romans 1:28-32) it seems strange to pull out the most unsure cases by a rather stereotypical comparison to an invention of modern "effeminate homos".
Clearly whosoever thinks all gay men are "effeminate" has never been to a leather bar.

Especially being disobedient to parents seems to sit very uneasily with Jesus's teachings on a Holy Sword that will pull families asunder, or that anyone who "hate not his father, and mother, and wife" is not worthy (Luke 14:26).
There's clearly an attempt to downplay the more cult-like aspects that caused social alarm of the new sect, and to appeal to a broad conservatism.
It wasn't very successful however, and Christianity would be regarded as a dangerous cult until Constantine.

Originally posted by halfoldman
From what I just read the pastor has gone into hiding.

That would also be quite sad, because there should be room to discuss notions of gender and sexuality in the Bible, and to decide what they can and cannot mean.

I find that quite cowardly of him. He was laughing and applauding as the child sang in the video, he spoke out openly with hatred and vile and now, when he isn't in the "majority of opinion", he chooses to go into hiding instead of defending his actions and words.
Quite clearly shows that he was in the wrong. There are laws to protect him physically, police who would stand to protect him from harm, yet he goes into hiding because he is a lowly coward and knows he is wrong.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

Yeah, I think he could explain more after the inflammatory clip was apparently leaked.
This is where I read the latest:
www.thesun.co.uk...

I'd say it's OK to sing Bible verses back in a similar trend of debate, but it's obviously not OK to make physical threats against people.
Although who knows the true story?
It's all starting to seem like such showbiz tailored for US election issues.

I mean to say it is "leaked" is somewhat disingenuous.
If people stand on a pulpit with public access then it's surely very likely that it might end up being filmed.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some power struggle in the church, and it was posted by a rival.

Well, since the pastor's gone into hiding I suppose that makes him the victim now.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Randomacity

 

I think you misunderstood me. Maybe I left soemthing out of my post that could clear up what I meant...I'll go back. I was comparing the two issues, not accusing you of anything (I thought I was agreeing?!?!?)

EDIT: Ok, well, I have no room left to edit in my original post on this matter, so I'll just clarify here:

I was comparing the stereotypes of the gay community with stereotyping in general and why, again, in general, stereotypes are wrong. I only used Black Americans as an example because it's a pretty evenly understood topic by most people here on ATS, many if not most being Americans.

The gist of what I meant was that people project a certain image on the gay community (just as the might on the Black community, Hispanic community, Christian community, etc.) and while there are legitimate background stories to why or how certain stereotypes come to bare, it does NOT mean that:

a) Stereotypes (generalizations) are uniformly distributed
b) All Stereotypes are group-specific (Black people eating watermelon, for example, as I said, I've seen my French-Irish American Mother eat watermelon more than any other human being)

edit on 2-6-2012 by Sphota because: (no reason given)

Ah indeed! I understand a bit better now. It's sad that I'm so used to being branded a racist. I probably misread and wrote the post that I made at 3 o'clock in the morning. Goes to show I should probably be sleeping at that time.

And I agree, though I am the type of person that has a zero-tolerance policy for people who are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. I just don't have time for that hatred, and the fact that people rely so much on stereotypes to make their points is saddening.

One of the worst 'stereotyping' and 'accusing' statements I've heard is that we are next to bestiality and pedophilia. There are terrible people in every grouping of individuals, and in every community, and it's disappointing that they have the loudest voice when the entire community has the spotlight on them.

Forgive me for my indiscretion. And if I sounded rude in the post, I truly didn't mean to. Sometimes I forget that tone of voice doesn't follow well on forums. Heh.

I cringe when people claim being gay is "alike" beastality and peadophilia. I really wonder how shrimp like and dumb their brains must be. Pretty sure you get straight pardophiles and straight people performing beastality acts...therefore, if a gay person is being accused of such, well...straights can be painted with that brush pretty easily too.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

Yeah, I think he could explain more after the inflammatory clip was apparently leaked.
This is where I read the latest:
www.thesun.co.uk...

I'd say it's OK to sing Bible verses back in a similar trend of debate, but it's obviously not OK to make physical threats against people.
Although who knows the true story?
It's all starting to seem like such showbiz tailored for US election issues.

I mean to say it is "leaked" is somewhat disingenuous.
If people stand on a pulpit with public access then it's surely very likely that it might end up being filmed.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some power struggle in the church, and it was posted by a rival.

Well, since the pastor's gone into hiding I suppose that makes him the victim now.

I think having a small child display such hatred, especially in a public forum is extremely wrong. They should have to answer to that. At the same time, it's also wrong to make threats of physical violence regardless of how angry it may make us or how opposed we are to it. Usually those are empty threats and he should stand up and address the matter instead of going into hiding and he is very cowardly for doing so. The police will protect him physically, it's his psychological cowardice that is the most shameful.

Originally posted by LightInside
I cringe when people claim being gay is "alike" beastality and peadophilia. I really wonder how shrimp like and dumb their brains must be. Pretty sure you get straight pardophiles and straight people performing beastality acts...therefore, if a gay person is being accused of such, well...straights can be painted with that brush pretty easily too.

shrimp don't have brains, only a collection of nerves (ganglia) Maybe that's what the hateful people have too!!

reply to post by reitze


I have no idea what you just said.
I don't want to try to decipher it either.

Originally posted by mugger
Anyone can cherry pick a radical group and then lump in "all", as in this case, Christians.
Most Christians I know, tolerate the gay community, but do not accept their views as in accordance with the Bible.
Most people I know do not accept adultery either. Each person is responsible for their own actions when they meet their maker.

This still doesn't mean that anyone has to tolerate the Bible. If it weren't FOR the bible, gays would probably have been accepted decades or century ago. Like it or not, it's the MAIN spring that gives birth to most of the hatred for gay people. And I love the way you put it - "Do not accept their views" as if being gay were an opinion.

It still blows my mind that anyone in this day and age can walk down the street, see the world for what it is, and yet follow a 2000 year old book that tells them what to do and how to feel about a class of people, without being able to see how incredibly antiquated it is and without also being able to see that this book is more or less an excuse for them so they don't have to deal with their own biases towards gay people.

So yes, I do appreciate Christians who aren't complete losers, but to tell you the truth, the "hate the sin, hate the sinner" ideology doesn't warm my heart any more than the people in the video do either.

I'd say at this point that any religion that results in divisiveness should be suspect.

Originally posted by LightInside
I cringe when people claim being gay is "alike" beastality and peadophilia. I really wonder how shrimp like and dumb their brains must be. Pretty sure you get straight pardophiles and straight people performing beastality acts...therefore, if a gay person is being accused of such, well...straights can be painted with that brush pretty easily too.

I did a really stupid video on Youtube. But my point: the amount of comments I've received in this video that I'm a pedophile are astounding! Nowhere in this video do I mention or show children. My theory is that pedophilia is considered the worst possible sex act in this society. So when people are presented with anything they consider sexually offensive, they automatically lump it into the same category as bestiality and pedophilia. I would also offer up as a sub-set to my theory, that the pedophilia is more in their head than anyone else's, as I responded thusly to one of the comments to my video: "Pedophilia is clearly in your mind, but was never in mine."

Is the cowardly "pastor" still in hiding or has he come out and manned up yet? (assuming he's still in hiding since that's what cowards do)
Let him live in fear for a while, afraid that someone will attack him out of nowhere just for being who he is, afraid to show his face i the general public because people hate him... it's a good instance of reversal for him and, quite frankly, he deserves it.
The child is a child, but the adults need to be held accountable!

I bet the kid turns out gay.

Anyway, they do go on about their rights and stuff though, and it should be OK for people to be against that. They are in their own stupid christian church which disagrees with being gay, so let them cheer.

reply to post by cartoonhotdog


What the adults are doing to the child is tantamount to child abuse and neglect. He should be removed from his parents or legal guardians who should then be arrested and charged by the state

reply to post by ofhumandescent

And Yahushua (Jesus) never mentioned homosexuality.

Considering that he is Elohim incarnate and in the OT he said homosexuality is an abomination, if he didn't like it then he doesn't like it now. Stop making excuses. Elohim does not change, he is the same today as he was from the beginning. There's a reason why the OT was included in the NT because both books verify eachother. You are injecting your own interpretation into the matter and HE already said he does not change, he is what he is.

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by cartoonhotdog

 

What the adults are doing to the child is tantamount to child abuse and neglect. He should be removed from his parents or legal guardians who should then be arrested and charged by the state

No, it is nothing like child abuse or neglect at all. There is no crime commited and you may not like it, but it is the right of the parents, and not just parents but everyone to speak as they did and teach it to their children. As for removing him from his family just for this song, you must be joking..

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ofhumandescent

 

And Yahushua (Jesus) never mentioned homosexuality.

Considering that he is Elohim incarnate and in the OT he said homosexuality is an abomination, if he didn't like it then he doesn't like it now. Stop making excuses. Elohim does not change, he is the same today as he was from the beginning. There's a reason why the OT was included in the NT because both books verify eachother. You are injecting your own interpretation into the matter and HE already said he does not change...

Are there no biblical laws that you have broken or continue to break? If not, then put me to death like your book says, like a good christian and I'll gladly allow you to.

If I may, you are injecting your own interpretation into the matter also.

he is what he is.

Yep, your psychotic, irrelevant, imaginary friend.

Originally posted by Maslo

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by cartoonhotdog

 

What the adults are doing to the child is tantamount to child abuse and neglect. He should be removed from his parents or legal guardians who should then be arrested and charged by the state

No, it is nothing like child abuse or neglect at all. There is no crime commited and you may not like it, but it is the right of the parents, and not just parents but everyone to speak as they did and teach it to their children. As for removing him from his family just for this song, you must be joking..

Perhaps not in your country but there are places in the world where this is considered placing the child in a position where they may be caused mental harm. In these places, should the incident be reported, the child and his legal guardians would be counselled and monitored at the very least.

Parents and legal guardians have a duty of care to children in their custody to ensure their healthy mental and emotional wellbeing. This is not the case in the video, the child is being exposed to harmful messages and emulating disturbing beliefs and practices learned from adults.

Shameful, wrong and where I live - illegal.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ofhumandescent

 

And Yahushua (Jesus) never mentioned homosexuality.

Considering that he is Elohim incarnate and in the OT he said homosexuality is an abomination, if he didn't like it then he doesn't like it now. Stop making excuses. Elohim does not change, he is the same today as he was from the beginning. There's a reason why the OT was included in the NT because both books verify eachother. You are injecting your own interpretation into the matter and HE already said he does not change, he is what he is.

That may very well be your opinion, but it is incorrect and not supported by the Bible itself. God changed many times throughout the bible. His opinions changed, his actions changed, his methods changed, practically everything about him changed....several times...
quickest and easiest case in point... what does the rainbow represent?

Originally posted by Maslo

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by cartoonhotdog

 

What the adults are doing to the child is tantamount to child abuse and neglect. He should be removed from his parents or legal guardians who should then be arrested and charged by the state

No, it is nothing like child abuse or neglect at all. There is no crime commited and you may not like it, but it is the right of the parents, and not just parents but everyone to speak as they did and teach it to their children. As for removing him from his family just for this song, you must be joking..

So you feel that the Muslim extremists who teach their children to hate America and train them to commit terroristic actions against them have that right to do so and it's just fine and dandy? Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Maslo

Originally posted by Garfee
reply to post by cartoonhotdog

 

What the adults are doing to the child is tantamount to child abuse and neglect. He should be removed from his parents or legal guardians who should then be arrested and charged by the state

No, it is nothing like child abuse or neglect at all. There is no crime commited and you may not like it, but it is the right of the parents, and not just parents but everyone to speak as they did and teach it to their children. As for removing him from his family just for this song, you must be joking..

So you feel that the Muslim extremists who teach their children to hate America and train them to commit terroristic actions against them have that right to do so and it's just fine and dandy? Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Hey, free society - isn't it a bitch.

Things you have to put up with, unless you want big brother dictating everything.