When "Clean" Energy Is Dirty

Im one to say that iv been interested in making alternative sources of "clean" energy for my home and neighborhood utilizing the power of wind to create electricity. (quoting popular culture when using term clean)

Similar to these things


As many know this process uses rare earth magnets or neodymium magnets

BUT what many dont know is that the production of these powerful rare earth magnets are creating pollution destroying landscapes and poisoning the inhabitants of where these magnets are mined and produced. as stated in the links to the reports below.

www.dailymail.co.uk...< br />
www.pbs.org...

What rare earth processing plants look like. Baotou, China

The environmental problems include air emissions with harmful elements, such as fluorine and sulfur, wastewater that contains excessive acid, and radioactive materials, too. China meets 95 percent of the world's demand for rare earth, and most of the separation and extraction is done here. So, the pollution stays in China, too.

The Baotou Environmental Protection Bureau tested our water, and they concluded that it wasn't fit for people or animals to drink or for irrigation.

Farmers standing next to their toxic lake


I urge you all to look into the links for a more detailed glimpse at the truth that these reports put before us. and reconsider what clean energy is

I never realized rare earths were used in wind turbines. Thanks for bringing it to the boards:

Yet experts warn of a front of high pressure blowing in from the East, which could effectively calm this storm of development — at least in the short term. The newest wind turbine technologies largely depend on rare earth metals, quirky elements that are used to make special magnets that dramatically increase conversion efficiency. Yet the corresponding demand for these materials is hampered by the fact that almost all of the world’s supply is concentrated in China, where strategic investments in rare earth element extraction and refining in the 1980’s has given it cost advantages in the production process and an effective monopoly of the industry.

Link

I was always under the impression that there is no such thing as "clean" energy, and this is another mark for the book. The devastation on environment by hydroelectric is another good one. And the so called "clean coal" is a compete farce.

There are some ideas out there that are pretty good though. I like the methane from waste idea because it is taking something we are getting rid of, and harvesting the gas that comes off of it. Of course not viable to sustain the world, it isn't a bad idea.

New energy ideas are always worth a try of course.

Cheers.

Right... For just about everything Green™, a more apt description would be "Clean close-up, Dirty at a distance". But as long as that's someone else's problem, who cares?

The green industry is quite a sham, eh?

That's not fair, everything looks like that in China.
Also, I've tinkered with making my own turbines. The trick is not producing the power, but how to store and regulate it.

Originally posted by dashen
That's not fair, everything looks like that in China.
Also, I've tinkered with making my own turbines. The trick is not producing the power, but how to store and regulate it.

LOL. everything does not look like that in china

Evidence found on google images. Look at these gorgeous pics

Another thing the greenies won't admit is that when these renewables are implemented in power systems predominated by thermal generation (coal, gas, etc), they can actually make the system dirtier than just pure thermal alone. See what happens is wind or solar will come up and the thermal plants that were running will throttle back. Since wind is intermittent the thermal plants must be ready to respond to take up load if and when the wind drops out. Due to the slow responding nature of these thermal plants, ie they can't turn on/shut down instantly, they must stay on, but at a reduced capacity which is very inefficient (these plants are designed for a rated output at which the combustion is the most complete and efficient) and thus often increases emissions.

An interesting read on the subject of Green Energy

We don’t have an energy crisis. We have a consumption crisis. And this book, which takes aim at cherished assumptions regarding energy, offers refreshingly straight talk about what’s wrong with the way we think and talk about the problem. Though we generally believe we can solve environmental problems with more energy—more solar cells, wind turbines, and biofuels—alternative technologies come with their own side effects and limitations. How, for instance, do solar cells cause harm? Why can’t engineers solve wind power’s biggest obstacle? Why won’t contraception solve the problem of overpopulation, lying at the heart of our concerns about energy, and what will?

www.greenillusions.org...

Originally posted by dizTheWiz

Originally posted by dashen
That's not fair, everything looks like that in China.
Also, I've tinkered with making my own turbines. The trick is not producing the power, but how to store and regulate it.

LOL. everything does not look like that in china

Evidence found on google images. Look at these gorgeous pics

Well no, the places that are currently exploited look okay still.

But on the other hand...

reply to post by dizTheWiz


Wind energy has already been revealed to be a false god for the "green" and "renewable" faithful.

Where does the steel come from for the base and towers? That is NOT renewable.
Where does the concrete and rebar for the pad and platform come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the rare earth elements for the turbines and generators come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the back-up and storage entourage come from? They are NOT renewable.
What happens after 5 years, when the mechanisms of generation are worn out? They are NOT renewable.

If the industry is self-sustaining, I'm all for it; but allocating my taxes to certain politically-favored businesses, with no hope of a real return on that "investment," serves no one but the politcal interests involved and the recipients.

Where are the people who can sell wind-produced energy as a for-profit business?
Enron tried to lock-up the grid, and failed miserably.

Selling it as "green" or "renewable" is a lie because it is neither. Advocates act as if the wind farms are made of wind, when they are the products of the use of finite and expensive resources.

For many advocates, the goal is the wind farm itself, not the outrageously expensive electricity intermittently produced. When wind and solar become competitive, they will become true "alternatives."

The most "Shocking Propaganda" (as described in a similar thread) comes from the leeches and thieves enriching themselves in an otherwise unsustainable industry, that is largely just selling itself and not the product (i.e., electricity) they purport to be supplying

The false belief in wind energy as a legitimate alternative is indicative of a narrow-minded focus on a faulty means to an unattainable end.

What a simplistic position for an unsupportable agenda!

jw

If indeed this is true and not more subversion by organizations that attack green energy in order to protect the oil industry then obviously the use of such rare earth minerals needs to be examined and eliminated. This does not mean we should get away from harnessing wind power or other methods to clean sustainable energy. The simple fact is, though we don't know when, we will run out of oil.

Other facts to consider is that even should this story be 100% true and I'm by no means saying that it is not, is that it is still cleaner than oil. People like to forget everything that goes into oil consumption. The materials we use for extraction and the waste they produce, the materials we use to covert it to various fuels and the waste those methods produce, the materials we use to transport it and the waste that produces, the wars we wage including the use of nuclear weapons in order to gain control of oil that costs human life, economic strife, radiated waste and the waste generated by all our military apparatus...and not to mention the cost ecologically and in dollars when something goes wrong.

We need to be careful of course, green energy is not above corruption...but we need to get rid of the corruption not trash the whole concept of green energy all together.

reply to post by Kali74


You need to get past the assumption that anything critical of 'green energy' is somehow defending "Big Oil'.

The REAL issue is our level of consumption. There is NO sustainable source of energy for our societies ever-expanding level of consumption, be it oil, nat gas, solar, wind, etc. We have to consume VASTLY less than we currently do. THAT's the real 'green' option.

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by dizTheWiz

 

Wind energy has already been revealed to be a false god for the "green" and "renewable" faithful.

Where does the steel come from for the base and towers? That is NOT renewable.
Where does the concrete and rebar for the pad and platform come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the rare earth elements for the turbines and generators come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the back-up and storage entourage come from? They are NOT renewable.
What happens after 5 years, when the mechanisms of generation are worn out? They are NOT renewable.

If the industry is self-sustaining, I'm all for it; but allocating my taxes to certain politically-favored businesses, with no hope of a real return on that "investment," serves no one but the politcal interests involved and the recipients.

Where are the people who can sell wind-produced energy as a for-profit business?
Enron tried to lock-up the grid, and failed miserably.

Selling it as "green" or "renewable" is a lie because it is neither. Advocates act as if the wind farms are made of wind, when they are the products of the use of finite and expensive resources.

For many advocates, the goal is the wind farm itself, not the outrageously expensive electricity intermittently produced. When wind and solar become competitive, they will become true "alternatives."

The most "Shocking Propaganda" (as described in a similar thread) comes from the leeches and thieves enriching themselves in an otherwise unsustainable industry, that is largely just selling itself and not the product (i.e., electricity) they purport to be supplying

The false belief in wind energy as a legitimate alternative is indicative of a narrow-minded focus on a faulty means to an unattainable end.

What a simplistic position for an unsupportable agenda!

jw

Sorry but i dont get it...

To build a wind turbine requires rare earths imported from China and this causes pollution. The wind turbines are made from steal, concrete etc... And this is not renewable... ok.. that’s not great and needs to be looked into.

But then, once built, a wind turbine will provide years of energy with zero emissions.

You can also sell small wind turbine to the public so that they can produce their own clean and free energy.

A coal, gas or oil power station is made from the same materials that are not renewable and cause pollution. And, once built, will provide harmful emissions for the entirety of its existence. You cannot sell small scale power stations to individual so instead you wire the energy into their homes thus chaining them to contracts and a lifetime of payments for dirty energy.

You say that there are “leeches and thieves enriching themselves in an otherwise unsustainable industry” I think you are aiming that as the wrong industry.

I do not remember wind turbine ever causing a Gulf of Mexico type disaster. Nor do a recollect wind turbines causing the problems we have seen in the Niger-delta or the Amazon. And I am 100% sure that a wind turbine has never melted down and pumped high levels of radiation into the environment such as fukushima.

So, considering all this, do you still think we should scrap wind power? If so, than we had better scrap all the other forms of energy production and go back a more primitive existence. Something that would suit me just fine

Originally posted by Kali74

If indeed this is true and not more subversion by organizations that attack green energy in order to protect the oil industry then obviously the use of such rare earth minerals needs to be examined and eliminated.

You're kidding, right?
If you do not know what the industry requires, your comments and opinions are misplaced at best and misleading at worst. Wind Turbines REQUIRE rare-earth magnets or they cannot function as effectively as is necessary to even make them an option worth considering.

Other facts to consider is that even should this story be 100% true and I'm by no means saying that it is not, is that it is still cleaner than oil.

Although you cite many factors, including war; most of those very same factors apply to wind energy generation. Since we aren't producing much in the way of rare earths, we depend upon others, who are trying to limit our access. Is war OK if it's for "green" measures?

We need to be careful of course, green energy is not above corruption...but we need to get rid of the corruption not trash the whole concept of green energy all together.

No one is "trash[ing] the whole concept of green energy." What is being criticized is the ideology that these projects are worthy of taxpayer support even though that still doesn't make them viable or competetive.
It is taxpayers paying for "green" just for green's sake. Of course, you have to assume that wind is "green" to begin with, when it is not.
Or call it "renewable" when it is not.

If the idea is that wind is cheap, why not just give the tax money directly to ratepayers (i.e.tax cuts) and let them buy the power from whoever is cheapest?

reply to post by jdub297

Where does the steel come from for the base and towers? That is NOT renewable.
Where does the concrete and rebar for the pad and platform come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the rare earth elements for the turbines and generators come from? They are NOT renewable.
Where do the back-up and storage entourage come from? They are NOT renewable.
What happens after 5 years, when the mechanisms of generation are worn out? They are NOT renewable.

Steel isn't renewable but it's reusable.
Limestone shortage do we have or gravel?
The rare earth elements being used is actually a legitimate caveat. So too would be any battery technology relying on lithium for storage.
What happens to anything if it wears out?

You have a point, but you went a little overboard. Mind you, current energy technology is far worse or just as destructive. Wind isn't completely useless, but it's also not a be-all-end-all savior either.

reply to post by Muckster

once built, a wind turbine will provide years of energy with zero emissions.
You can also sell small wind turbine to the public so that they can produce their own clean and free energy.

How much are you willing to pay for a turbine that might lower your electrical bill, but not your heating bills, by a few dollars per month, a few months a year? These are not economically viable alternatives, yet. Do you believe that your neighbors should be forced to pitch-in to help you buy your windmill?
You don't want to be " chained to dirty energy?" Go price your own windmill right now. Then, ask your neighbors to commit to help pay for it.

You say that there are “leeches and thieves enriching themselves in an otherwise unsustainable industry” I think you are aiming that as the wrong industry.

These projects are being sold as alternatives, when they are not. They sell the project, but not the product (electricity) because it is unreliable and expensive.
I'll make a deal: you get all your neighbors signed up for my "investment" and I'll build your windmill. If it doesn't lower your bills, or if I quit after a week, you and your neighbors can deal with it. I will be immune from liability.

I do not remember wind turbine ever causing a Gulf of Mexico type disaster.Nor do a recollect wind turbines causing the problems we have seen in the Niger-delta or the Amazon.

I don't know of ANY electric utilites who rely upon oil for their primary boilers/generation. Why is oil relevant to this discussion?

And I am 100% sure that a wind turbine has never melted down and pumped high levels of radiation into the environment such as fukushima.

I would bet that if you measured environmental damage from wind power against nuclear on a per-kWh basis, your worries are unsupported. Support them.

So, considering all this, do you still think we should scrap wind power?

No. I've never said that. Please, sign up your neighbors today.

If so, than we had better scrap all the other forms of energy production and go back a more primitive existence. Something that would suit me just fine

Isn't that exactly what Holdren, Sunstein, Chu and Obama have advocated?
If you don't mind, then do it. Why are you so worried about alternatives, if you're willing to live in the dark?
(Don't be starting no fires, they cause soot and melt glaciers!)

jw

Originally posted by Kali74
rare earth minerals needs to be examined and eliminated. This does not mean we should get away from harnessing wind power or other methods to clean sustainable energy.

We need to be careful of course, green energy is not above corruption...but we need to get rid of the corruption not trash the whole concept of green energy all together.

rare earth minerals can be processed cleanly but china does not care.

China does NOT control 90% of the rare earth mineral deposits. china has just undercut the mines in the rest of the world by mining and processing rare earth minerals without protecting the environment at there mines and mills.

the US and Canada have the rare earth mineral deposits but because they have to mine and mill there rare earths cleanly it cost 3 times more and for years the Chinese dumped there dirty products on the world markets at 1/3 the cost. The one mine in the US was not able to compete.
en.wikipedia.org...

The US and other countries should be able to use trade tariffs to protect there mines from this dirty dumping by china but can not due to trade treaties

Earth uses iron for its magnet for her overunity spin.

I'm not sure that rare earth magnets are even needed. Telsa coils, possibly some crystals (and quartz can be grown, so can diamonds). Metal can be magnetized as well. And iron is very available.

Originally posted by Unity_99
Earth uses iron for its magnet for her overunity spin.

I'm not sure that rare earth magnets are even needed. Telsa coils, possibly some crystals (and quartz can be grown, so can diamonds). Metal can be magnetized as well. And iron is very available.

The earth is slowing down, sorry to tell you.

If iron magnets were the answer, we wouldn't be using neodymium, et c.
Not all metal can be magnetized - try magnetizing some aluminum foil or a penny.
(Do they not teach Science in school anymore?)

Most magnets are not iron, anyway, they are nickel alloy. Some are porcelain.
And the best ones are even more exotic - just call Radio Shack and ask them.

jw

reply to post by jdub297

How much are you willing to pay for a turbine that might lower your electrical bill, but not your heating bills, by a few dollars per month, a few months a year? These are not economically viable alternatives, yet. Do you believe that your neighbors should be forced to pitch-in to help you buy your windmill?

Do you actually know anyone who has a small wind turbine? Because i do... I know one person who uses a Turbine on its own to power all of the utilities on his small holding (Greenhouse heater, outbuilding lights etc) and another person who uses a wind turbine in conjunction with solar to power everything and has enough energy left over to sell back to the grid. Now admittedly these people are not your typical gadget hungry consumers... and the guy who uses wind/solar combo has the basics (one TV, one PC, One fridge, lights and washing machine) but that’s part of my point... we all need to cut back on consumption along with using cleaner tech.

Also you failed to address the following point...

coal, gas or oil power station is made from the same materials that are not renewable and cause pollution. And, once built, will provide harmful emissions for the entirety of its existence. You cannot sell small scale power stations to individual so instead you wire the energy into their homes thus chaining them to contracts and a lifetime of payments for dirty energy.

These projects are being sold as alternatives, when they are not. They sell the project, but not the product (electricity) because it is unreliable and expensive.
I'll make a deal: you get all your neighbors signed up for my "investment" and I'll build your windmill. If it doesn't lower your bills, or if I quit after a week, you and your neighbors can deal with it. I will be immune from liability.

Well it depends what you want out of them... if you use them in the correct way they are a reliable and worthwhile investment. As for all my neighbours... What?!?

I don't know of ANY electric utilites who rely upon oil for their primary boilers/generation. Why is oil relevant to this discussion?

Oil is used to power cars and trains. However, electricity can also be used to power cars and trains... this Electricity can be produced by wind turbines.

I would bet that if you measured environmental damage from wind power against nuclear on a per-kWh basis, your worries are unsupported. Support them.

Sorry but what are you talking about? Are you seriously suggesting that wind power causes more environmental damage than Nuclear?? Really???

No. I've never said that. Please, sign up your neighbors today.

What is your obsession with my neighbours... is this some riddle... please state your point clearly

Isn't that exactly what Holdren, Sunstein, Chu and Obama have advocated?
If you don't mind, then do it. Why are you so worried about alternatives, if you're willing to live in the dark?
(Don't be starting no fires, they cause soot and melt glaciers!)

You do realise that the environment is a WORLD issue and not something that purely revolves around American politics. I'm not American and don’t really care much for American politics. I'm not interested in Obama/Romney, Republican/Democrats, Left/Right... This is all crap the separates us, entrenches us, and prevents sensible conversations from taking place. Just my humble opinion!

Peace

reply to post by jdub297


The earth is slowing down, if its time is up in the dvd, ie, the natural cycle, OR if they've used HAARP too many times.

Iron is still a good magnet, but I would be going with the Telsa Coils.