The Right/Left illusion...is NOT an illusion

reply to post by eNumbra

You apparently missed the whole idea of "it's nothing but appeals to emotion to stay in power".

That's not what you said. You said "Their differences, in my opinion are more cosmetic. They are certainly differences, you are right; but I see them as more a color of my armband type of difference."

SO TO YOU, life vs death is purely cosmetic! Thats what I read. 

I have my opinion on abortion, I have my opinion on gay marriage, I have all of my opinions but frankly there are dozens if not hundreds that are far more important in this world right now; but everyone would rather focus on cute little babies and dudes making out when they pick their leaders.

Those certainly aren't THE most important issues, but the point of the OP was to point out the ridiculousness of saying there is no left or right positions. 

I've heard that lame garbage many times and it is frustrating as well as distracting. Those who can't see there are two ends of the political spectrum are being disingenuous IMO. 

I agree with those who say the elected left and right operate similarly but we're talking about political ideology (what they say they believe) not political realty (what they actually do once elected). 

 

reply to post by SaturnFX


I think there's a lack of understanding as to why, people like me claim that there is no difference between the left vs right mentality.

All these issues you mentioned, are non issues in the grand scheme of things;

Abortion, gay marriage, religion...All of these are a pitance in comparison to your REAL problems as Americans, and current members of a global economy. Actually any nation on earth feels these same issues; just in varying degrees of severity.

So we are right, when we say, that your left vs right mentality, is completely and utterly wrong, because it encourages that you fight amongst each other instead of fighting those who are actually the enemy.

So continue thinking that you have a choice in the matter, of being on the left or the right, or you can be like me and choose to identify yourself as human, with a range of opinions and beliefs that go from left to right in the general mentality of things.

And fight for the rights of all people, not just the ones you agree with.

~Tenth

It's obviously not an illusion, just being on ATS is evidence enough I get a little tired of the left right debate. There are many things I dislike about some left wing ideologies, so don't want to subscribe to them just because they are on the left. I dislike much of the Liberal approach to politics and society, with things like over zealous political correctness and the like, so I do not wish to subscribe to these ideas either.

I actually believe in the free market and the benefits that capitalism has brought to the world. However, I also believe that with the wealth created from Capitalism, it is also possible to provide Health care and welfare to all nations citizens who need it.

For me it's providing the right balance, people must be free do what ever they want be in life and should be encouraged to do so, but there has to be some notion of the value of community and wider society that individuals belong to.

reply to post by seabag


But isn't what matters, what they do after elected.

Originally posted by seabag
That's not what you said. You said "Their differences, in my opinion are more cosmetic. They are certainly differences, you are right; but I see them as more a color of my armband type of difference."

SO TO YOU, life vs death is purely cosmetic! Thats what I read. 

Then you need to learn to read; go back to my first post in this thread, then go look up the word subtext.

Those certainly aren't THE most important issues, but the point of the OP was to point out the ridiculousness of saying there is no left or right positions. 

And then I agreed with him that there are differences, and then pointed out what I believed was the actual illusion and my thoughts on there being no difference. The OP then said he could agree with my opinion.

Then you attacked me.

I've heard that lame garbage many times and it is frustrating as well as distracting. Those who can't see there are two ends of the political spectrum are being disingenuous IMO. 

There are two ends of the spectrum, but they aren't as far apart as people would like to believe. Their differences are emotional subjects that exist only to divide the populous amongst them

I agree with those who say the elected left and right operate similarly but we're talking about political ideology (what they say they believe) not political realty (what they actually do once elected). 

I find it hilarious that though we agree apparently, you're jumping down my throat for an opinion that "election issues" are bulls*.

Originally posted by seabag
I've heard that lame garbage many times and it is frustrating as well as distracting. Those who can't see there are two ends of the political spectrum are being disingenuous IMO. 

Of course there are 2 distinct sides of the political spectrum but today that resides with about 50% of the voters. I think it's safe to say that 50% are not as "hard core" as society used to be. The Swing Voters. That's why I think Romney has a decent shot at the WH. He's a consensus builder. If elected he may be the next Prez to be shot for not following the script. In that the exact opposite of the premiss of the thread exists.

reply to post by SaturnFX

there are very quantifiable differences between the sides.

In concept, yes there is a difference between conservative and liberal, democrat and republican, etc.

However, when people talk about the falseness of the left-right paradigm, they are talking more about the fact that no matter what a politician's values seem to be these days, the citizens always end up getting screwed.

For example, as long as my income tax money continues to be wasted by both sides of the political aisle, tnen "left and right" might as well be "purple and shoe."

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Abortion, gay marriage, religion...All of these are a pitance in comparison to your REAL problems as Americans, and current members of a global economy. Actually any nation on earth feels these same issues; just in varying degrees of severity.

I object
Its not important to you...you may not see it as a problem
I however may see civil rights and definition of life a major epic problem that outweighs todays fiscal issues or other concerns.
Who are you to judge what is more or less important based on your personal perspective?

Tomorrow we will pay our late bills, and babies will still be murdered without care, or someone may define your body as not your own to choose should some cells be replicating (depends on how your views are).

So, how is bills trumping potential loss of liberty with your own body (or murdering unborn..perspective)?

That is perhaps the weakest argument out there....these issues don't matter because there are more important things...more important to who?

Economics will always be rising and falling for every civilization throughout time...but once you deal with civil rights, with personal liberties, it resolves it for (theoretically) all time...to me, that is a greater issue than something that will never, ever go away.

So, arguably, those small issues are the most important issues in regards to how this country runs in the future.

Well the left party in the US is more right then the leading right party over here in Holland.
IMO, it's all the same bull#, left or right it doesn't matter much.

For example, when Pim Fortuyn (well known ex dutch Politicus) was killed by some green/left guy, allot of people became anti green/left.
IMO it's rather kinda dangerous to think too much in left or right sides, there comes way to much emotions, which makes your judgement rather wrong often.

Some things may be left and some may be right, but it's not always easy what's what and to me it's almost like black and white.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
I get a bit bothered by people whom pop into threads and suggest that the right and left in politics is an illusion, there is no difference, etc etc etc.

I get a bit bothered by any who simply 'drop in' and leave a comment like that. The comment merits explanation... which I am willing to provide, although until now, no one has asked for real discussion on the matter.

Of course, bear in mind, this is just my opinion, I know many adhere very viscerally to a distinction between the terms one political entity embraces as opposed to another..In that regard, you are correct.

There is a difference between a "liberal" or "conservative" view... as well as "left" versus "right"; however there are two insurmountable problems within the differences....

The terms have been rendered into cosmetically shallow insignificance by misuse, and mangled beyond recognition by opinion-making institutions.

I say, for example, that there is no difference between political parties... they effectively engender the same thing, support the same interests, and are equally ineffectual and unmotivated to pursue the will of the American citizens (unless they are substantial financial revenue sources. - hint hint.)

This means I am apt to claim as you find so troubling that there is no difference between left and right.. etc. Why? Simply because those who are identified as being one or the other are no different from each other. Perhaps one concept is different from another, but that nothing to do with the 'players' (or thespians, I call them) that act out the roles the political entities direct.

The illusion thus, is the idea that just because a group of individuals calls themselves the right or left, doesn't really mean anything more significant than choosing a particular team color for your particular team. In practice the illusion is thinking that it makes some difference. It would, if the players weren't players but servants dedicated to a proposition of representing certain values... but they don't. They only "say" they do... and then execute the party plan. Remember "Yes we can." Tell me, was "Yes we can" a battle-cry to achieve something other than to get a certain person elected... I think so. Of course the illusion was that "Yes we can" pertained to citizens improving our civil empowerment.... did we? "No we can't"

Do you believe women should be able to get an abortion?
If yes, go left, if no, go right

Such absolute phrasing belies the depth and breadth of differences in the lives of people. We are not living in a machine world where circumstance is irrelevant and the cog either rotates or it doesn't.

Do you believe a constitutional amendment should be set in place to forbid homosexual marriage?
If yes, go right, if no, go left.

Have we actually agreed on marriage? Has one "side" determined sole ownership of the institution? Is it a given? Are there no questions remaining to be asked in this issue? Can it be so simple as "you are this or that, and therefore you can or cannot do that or this?"

There are a dozen other issues that has no middle ground, no its the same either way...(feel free to post some so the people can see the differences).

I think they may all have middle ground... although no one says a person has to accept that.

I asked sometime back, elsewhere, if someone could tell me where the definitive explanation of what is left, right, liberal, and conservative was... everything offered was debatable... by people on "both" sides.

I think there are those who use the false construct of duality to introduce a divisive framework over the narrative in any discussion. It is to their advantage.

Can you guess of whom I speak?

Originally posted by spiritualzombie

Originally posted by beezzer
More government intrusion into peoples lives?
Yes? Go left
No? Go right.

Beezer, I think this one is a little off. it depends on what your definition of intrusion is. The Patriot Act? Homeland Security spying on Americans? The creation of TSA for friendly gropes? How about trying to create bans on same sex marriage or getting in the way of a woman's right to choose? That's a whole lot of government intrusion.

It seems to me the only big government The Right opposes is when it comes to their wallet.

You make a valid point, I'll be more specific in the future.

Originally posted by Plugin
Well the left party in the US is more right then the leading right party over here in Holland.
IMO, it's all the same bull#, left or right it doesn't matter much.

Most people don't understand that over here in the states.
They think if you increase the tax rate 4% on the tippy top (rolling back to the 90s tax rate), it is equal to having zombie Hitler take over the whole nation...

The concept over here about socialism/marxism is so distorted now that the meaning of the words are completely lost...
Used to be "sharing is caring", now its "sharing is socialism". Funny stuff really, if I wasn't currently sitting in this mudboat.
Holland is beautiful..been there, quite lovely people and land. Took my honeymoon over there.
Anyone whom wants to understand maximum liberties should travel over there for a bit.

Since i been watching the Hatfield's and the McCoys for the last two nites and while that is fresh in the mind, I think the left and right could be summed up with this line from the mini series.

McCoy said " It's about Christian right, and damnation wrong." and that could apply to either side since both sides they they are right and the other is wrong.

They both tried to work within the system(American politics) and then decided to work outside the system that was a very self destructive path,

Should sound familiar, both sides have ideology they adhere to on occasion they try to work within the system but then both decide to game they system for their own interests, and those interests are not the same as their families, but they both go along with their patriarchs,.

And everyone suffers from ideological differences they are polar opposites and always will be.,

Favor the working man - Go left
Favor corporate America - Go right

Favor God above all - Go right
Favor common sense in a 21st century model & global world - Go left

Favor women's right to choose - Go left
Favor God above all - Go right (wait....:cool

Originally posted by neo96
McCoy said " It's about Christian right, and damnation wrong." and that could apply to either side since both sides they they are right and the other is wrong.

Was a trailer out (I guess its a movie now?) where they said that line..ya..that sums it up really, and anyone can say it. Perspective...wonderful thing really.

reply to post by DarkSarcasm

But isn't what matters, what they do after elected.

Of course it matters more what they do than what they say. I agree that their actions are similar once elected but that means they are corrupt douche bags. That does NOT mean there isn't a left and right; they just don't represent it well.  

The two party system is BS because they almost all act the same when they get to DC. If I got elected you'd damn sure see what the right looks like (it doesn't look like Romney or Bush)

Originally posted by seabag
The two party system is BS because they almost all act the same when they get to DC. If I got elected you'd damn sure see what the right looks like (it doesn't look like Romney or Bush)

And if you didn't do what you were told you would be executed. Reagan thought he was going to do it his way. Nope. If you don't do the Potomac Two Step you are really putting yourself out there. Remember what Clinton said(I know it's about Disclosure but it's bigger than that):

Bill Clinton – as quoted by senior White House reporter Sarah McClendon in reply to why he wasn’t doing anything about UFO disclosure.
Sarah, there’s a government inside the government, and I don’t control it.

www.hillaryclintonufo.net...

Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

there are very quantifiable differences between the sides.

In concept, yes there is a difference between conservative and liberal, democrat and republican, etc.

However, when people talk about the falseness of the left-right paradigm, they are talking more about the fact that no matter what a politician's values seem to be these days, the citizens always end up getting screwed.

For example, as long as my income tax money continues to be wasted by both sides of the political aisle, tnen "left and right" might as well be "purple and shoe."

edit on 30-5-2012 by DeReK DaRkLy because: ...

The right is effictively pro big business. The left is anti and is interested in reining in capitalism as the market has no loyalties. I am very curious as to why this distinction was ignored.

I do agree that most of us are screwed but thatis because we are predominantly not big business. The new gig is for the right to describe themselves as libertarians. When America has historically had no tradition of Libertarianism or syndicalism.

T

Favor People,go Left
Favor Money, go Right

It's pretty much that simple and this is why they are so different. When it comes to money and greed, we live in a capitalist society.

But when it comes to what makes this country great, it's never been about the money. It's always been about freedom and equality. The left fights for these things. The right opposes and always loses eventually. Equality eventually wins in America despite the resistance from the Right.

reply to post by spiritualzombie

Equal oppourtunity?
Go right.

Equal outcome?
Go left.