Is it right or wrong?

I have been trying to think of something that I have not witnessed before and that others have not witnessed before via television or any other medium as I have come across some opportunities at the moment to do something special/different that ultimately helps others which has been an aim of mine for a long time in life.

My question to others is fairly simple...

Is it right to manipulate the masses with false hope of some sorts, if it will actually create real belief in something and create actual real results over time?

To give some of you a better idea of my angle here without dropping my trousers...

One example would be the placebo effect that is used in science that generates a cure from the mind for lesser and serious illness. If you could use this to make others truly believe in something when it is not scientifically accurate, is it the right thing to do, if it would cure more people of an ailment of sorts?

Opinions are all im looking for here rather than a list of facts or non facts etc.

Thanks for any replies and I hope this makes a bit of sense without it coming across like I am egotistical, I cannot think of a better way to word it is all.

reply to post by XXXN3O


It just is

Originally posted by MattiasDesigns
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

It just is

Well I agree that it was but that is what an accidental return button does these days

reply to post by XXXN3O

It is clear that the masses are very stupid. So I agree with you 100%

I read Mein Kampf a while ago and my favourite part was the section where he talks about propaganda. It is very candid. He agrees with what you are saying. The masses are stupid. That is how they must be treated.

Originally posted by XXXN3O
Is it right to manipulate the masses with false hope, if it will actually create real belief in something and create real results over time?

No, wouldn't false hope really create false results? Religion and politics have been manipulating the masses for centuries, look how we are now.
We are getting real results, people are waking up all over the world.

One example would be the placebo effect that is used in science that generates a cure from the mind for lesser and serious illness. If you could use this to make others truly believe in something when it is not scientifically accurate, is it the right thing to do, if it would cure more people of an ailment of sorts?

edit on 28-5-2012 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)

I feel the placebo effect really only proves that the mind or soul is more powerful than we believe. But when we are not truly aware of that we constantly have to "trick" our mind into getting the results. So regardless of whether it's advil, or we think it's advil the headache goes away. When in reality the headache most likely went away because we expected it to.

Is it right to manipulate the masses with false hope of some sorts, if it will actually create real belief in something and create actual real results over time?

That is what humans are...

Predisposition and Cognitive Bias'
en.wikipedia.org...

and tactical deceit...

People love to claim that there is no such thing as subjective morality, but there is. We are all different, and the subjective part is locked in via frame of reference, and relativity. Right or Wrong is always dependent on the individual...

“It's clearly a crisis of two things: Of consciousness and conditioning. We have the technological power, the engineering skills to save our planet, to cure disease, to feed the hungry, to end war; But we lack the intellectual vision, the ability to change our minds. We must decondition ourselves from 10,000 years of bad behavior. And, it's not easy.”

~ Terence McKenna

We are forever Adam trying battle what Eve started, biting that fruit.

Right or Wrong... both...

It's right for whoever uses it in their pursuits, it's wrong for whoever must bare witness.

Trying to mold and manipulate the masses for the better, based on a highly developed understanding of all sciences, which includes anthropomorphism through occult understandings and such... meh

The results are always real, it's just what is real conducive towards results that benefit the whole that is the problem. Those results are few and far between, again, cognitive bias'.

reply to post by XXXN3O


yes it is wrong to manipulate For Any reason..

unless it is your 7 year-olds...

or you Teen Daughters....

or your Wife....

or your boss..

or....

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

It is clear that the masses are very stupid. So I agree with you 100%

I read Mein Kampf a while ago and my favourite part was the section where he talks about propaganda. It is very candid. He agrees with what you are saying. The masses are stupid. That is how they must be treated.

I do not think the masses are stupid but I think they are mislead.

I hear your opinion though and thank you for it.

reply to post by XXXN3O


How is it false hope if it creates real results over time?

I think you just have to have specific example, because right and wrong are so circumstantial. I think placebos work only under the trusting relationship between doctor and patient. The patient has to trust (internally take in account that it is supposed to make them better) using their own expectation to allow the body/mind to adjust and accept what it anticipates. Using this on a mass scale (for good) would require a massive trust in information in order for the information to do what it said it was going to do.

Kony 2012 is a good example of how not necessarily belief, but awareness acts as the prerequisite for positive change - there must be enough people involved only as far as they acknowledge more people need to be involved. This is the belief that of course Kony will be brought to justice by means of mass awareness, even though in reality Kony was already being pursued, on the run and wanted, and essentially no longer an immediate threat, but his image was still necessary in order to succeed in defeating him by acknowledging that he should be defeated. The real results are that people feel a sense of duty and involvement towards a positive change, while simultaneously doing nothing but acknowledging the change.

I didnt read the replies so I wouldnt be jaded.

Dont lie to me.

Assuming its best for me or others is a premise that you know my or others good. . dont please.

Thats my opion generated by experience for my and your and everyones "good". IMHO.

Peace and cheers.

.

reply to post by XXXN3O


Here's my left field swing...

We, in our hearts, know right from wrong (unless you have a disorder like psychopath or sociopath, but that's not what this thread is about. As OP stated, it's opinions). We, as a human being, know when we screwed someone over. We know when we bent over backwards. We know, we know...

Is it okay to create a lie to placate? Nope.

Honestly, truth, real compassion, real effort. These are the answers to doing the right thing. I almost put IMHO, but you know what? It's not an opinion, it's a statement of truth. You know when you do right, you know when you do wrong.

When all those bankers stole that money, they knew what they were doing (listen to the Enron tapes). They knew.

It comes down to this, would you rather do right, or would you rather "get ahead"?

Me, I'll stay poor, because I can't do what's required to be rich (though, a "million dollar idea" can eliminate this conundrum, I don't have that idea...obviously...-.-). But I still do alright. I don't "need", as much as maybe sometimes "want". I can honestly say though, I've always been taken care of, either by the sweat of my brow or the love of God for me.

Don't worry, not here to preach, just sayin', you can be a good person and live a good life with good things in it.

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

How is it false hope if it creates real results over time?

Well if you make people believe in themselves and you at the same time, yet going against conventional science to achieve an almost impossible result. It is normally met with ridicule.

I just have an idea at the moment of doing something to help others, entertain people and achieve something that most people think is impossible.

I like the replies so far though, especially your line because, it is really hard to think outside the box when you are in the box you speak about if you get me.

Thanks to everyone for the replies, its helping a lot.

Im just waiting on the really negative one

Perhaps the masses are only stupid because the truth is kept from them, and critical thinking isn't valued in our society.

Originally posted by darrman
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

yes it is wrong to manipulate For Any reason..

unless it is your 7 year-olds...

or you Teen Daughters....

or your Wife....

or your boss..

or....

Let me word this a better way.

Lets say you had a 30 year old adult who was convinced he/she could not walk.Yet it was a norm to crawl in this reality if that makes sense.

You took the person that clicked with you the most and taught them how to believe they can walk and they did. Then after they walked you taught them how to run to show the masses just what you can achieve if you believe in yourself and each other.

The lie is that you made them believe they could walk when even you yourself could not yet walk or anyone else in society. The truth is that they created it as truth because you made them believe in themselves.

Make more sense?

Or is it still wrong to make someone truly believe in something that you believe they or anyone else can do (not as easy as walking) but in a world where nobody else could walk....

I hope that makes it a bit more of a picture and remember im using that as an example of course.

Thanks for your thoughts.

More importantly though, is this still wrong or is it right??

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

How is it false hope if it creates real results over time?

Well if you make people believe in themselves and you at the same time, yet going against conventional science to achieve an almost impossible result. It is normally met with ridicule.

People don't like to be deceived especially when they know it was deliberate deceit. As if they are incapable of handling the truth, they are to be treated like little kids who aren't ready for the world and need to be sheltered. However, if what you are saying actually requires deceit, then revealing that deceiving was the only way to achieve the desired results can also look like a "necessary evil", - being honest about your dishonesty is where people decide on whether it was right or wrong.

Originally posted by juveous

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

How is it false hope if it creates real results over time?

Well if you make people believe in themselves and you at the same time, yet going against conventional science to achieve an almost impossible result. It is normally met with ridicule.

People don't like to be deceived especially when they know it was deliberate deceit. As if they are incapable of handling the truth, they are to be treated like little kids who aren't ready for the world and need to be sheltered. However, if what you are saying actually requires deceit, then revealing that deceiving was the only way to achieve the desired results can also look like a "necessary evil", - being honest about your dishonesty is where people decide on whether it was right or wrong.

That is the thing about it.

If this worked, I would not tell anyone how it was achieved, the person who achieved it would be an example for others to follow (not me). If I showed people how it came about if it worked, they would be skeptical of it because the very nature of it boils down to belief.

So much of our society is copycat stuff, im trying to think of something that will cover all angles. The angles being, something that is right now regarded as nonsense becoming almost fact, a person with no odds overcoming the odds giving real chances to others without a hope in hecks chance, a chance to show the masses what you can actually do with your life if you want too.

Also on a selfish standpoint, it is a chance for me to leave my mark in a good way (I think?) as I have always wanted to do something to help others in any way I can do so.

reply to post by XXXN3O


So what you are asking is when is lying ok?

But in the case where you lie to another for their benefit. If the result is positive with an anonymous or false attributer, then the only problem would be accrediting the one who is responsible for the change, falsely. That would be false hope in the sense that this person may look to who is responsible with praise and respect, and acting out on that relationship may come back to haunt the culprit who thought there could be nothing wrong with lying for good.

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by juveous

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

How is it false hope if it creates real results over time?

Well if you make people believe in themselves and you at the same time, yet going against conventional science to achieve an almost impossible result. It is normally met with ridicule.

People don't like to be deceived especially when they know it was deliberate deceit. As if they are incapable of handling the truth, they are to be treated like little kids who aren't ready for the world and need to be sheltered. However, if what you are saying actually requires deceit, then revealing that deceiving was the only way to achieve the desired results can also look like a "necessary evil", - being honest about your dishonesty is where people decide on whether it was right or wrong.

That is the thing about it.

If this worked, I would not tell anyone how it was achieved, the person who achieved it would be an example for others to follow (not me). If I showed people how it came about if it worked, they would be skeptical of it because the very nature of it boils down to belief.

So much of our society is copycat stuff, im trying to think of something that will cover all angles. The angles being, something that is right now regarded as nonsense becoming almost fact, a person with no odds overcoming the odds giving real chances to others without a hope in hecks chance, a chance to show the masses what you can actually do with your life if you want too.

Also on a selfish standpoint, it is a chance for me to leave my mark in a good way (I think?) as I have always wanted to do something to help others in any way I can do so.

edit on 28-5-2012 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)

What if...

What if the deceit is supposed to be realized upon moments of revelation, correlating with the time of its success in manipulating the masses.

cough... cough, bible

Some people have strange ideas as to Martyrdom and all it entails, such as... suffering persecution while refusing to back down from beliefs and interpretations of 'cause' and 'causation'... some claim that it's all destiny and that destiny will manifest itself, and the means find harmony in the constructs of cause, such cause being motive in devoting a service to humanity..

and back to my Adam and Eve comment from before, check this out...

When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who should be bond, and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may (if ye will) cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty.

John Ball

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

So what you are asking is when is lying ok?

But in the case where you lie to another for their benefit. If the result is positive with an anonymous or false attributer, then the only problem would be accrediting the one who is responsible for the change, falsely. That would be false hope in the sense that this person may look to who is responsible with praise and respect, and acting out on that relationship may come back to haunt the culprit who thought there could be nothing wrong with lying for good.

Interesting thoughts on it.

It is getting to the core of my problem, if you explain to someone, how you helped them save their own life. It would kill them potentially.

If you do not and they believe you, they will believe in a better world and so will others. That would create something too though because that is the whole premise of my point.

If it works fine, it would be true, if it did not, nobody would know of it apart from two people who took a risk at doing something out of the ordinary, myself being one of them.

Think I have my answer because I am willing to try to help a fellow man/woman that has nobody else to turn too.



Thanks for the reply and the others that posted as this is something that is very personal to me too.



I will take the plunge with it and if it does not work at least I tried. If it does work though it will be great.

Originally posted by XXXN3O
I have been trying to think of something that I have not witnessed before and that others have not witnessed before via television or any other medium as I have come across some opportunities at the moment to do something special/different that ultimately helps others which has been an aim of mine for a long time in life.

My question to others is fairly simple...

Is it right to manipulate the masses with false hope of some sorts, if it will actually create real belief in something and create actual real results over time?

To give some of you a better idea of my angle here without dropping my trousers...

One example would be the placebo effect that is used in science that generates a cure from the mind for lesser and serious illness. If you could use this to make others truly believe in something when it is not scientifically accurate, is it the right thing to do, if it would cure more people of an ailment of sorts?

Opinions are all im looking for here rather than a list of facts or non facts etc.

Thanks for any replies and I hope this makes a bit of sense without it coming across like I am egotistical, I cannot think of a better way to word it is all.

edit on 28-5-2012 by XXXN3O because: (no reason given)

A non-truth that leads to a truth. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as there is no truth that could also lead to another truth. Take religion for example. Some people lead peaceful lives because they believe a non-entity loves them. But, we don't need a non-entity for us to understand that we are all going through this life together, and if you don't respect and protect me, then why should I respect and protect you?