Google Earth proves Muhammad-Islam, page 15

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:03 PM

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reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Actually, that is not the case.
Christianity is full of prophecies that are yet to unfurl. Even today....Christians are still waiting for 2000 year old prophecies to be fulfilled. So there no reason to think that everything was already said and done.

Granted, but I think you're trying to dance around my point here - yes, christians (and jews) are still waiting on the fulfillment of prophecies already given - as christianity itself claims to be for the jews - but in itself, christianity was the completion of god's plan of salvation as Christ came and paid the cost. Believe, repent, and be saved. Live as Christ lived. Nothing more needs to be said or added - the redemptive plan and guidelines have already been laid out.

Islam however removes the promised assurance of salvation and obviates the paying of the cost by denying the crucifixion of Christ, among other things.

Its not just about Jesus....
Jews disagree on a number of things that are central to Christianity.

That's OK...I do myself, as well

(heretic, I know...).

Jews,like muslims.... dont believe in the christian concept of "original sin".

Agreed with the jews and muslims.

Jews,like muslims.... dont believe in the christian concept of "trinity".

Granted - I'm still up in the wind on this one myself, but I also consider it a non-issue as Christ never sought worship (he directed it at the Father). Regardless, the tanakh itself and the language it uses hints at the possibility, among others admittedly.

Still, this doesn't present a disagreement that christians have with jews (just the reverse of that), christians consider it further revelation of the nature of god that was only previously hinted at or addressed obliquely.

In fact, the jews dont even have a favorable view of Jesus and his mother Mary (to put it mildly).

I'll have to say yes and no on that - christianity and its implications have driven some jews very much against Jesus, true, but I believe quite a few also acknowledge him as a great teacher whose followers just got out of hand and started misinterpreting things.

Jesus is incompatible with Judaism....and yet Jews are favored by many Christians as the chosen people.
However, Jesus is revered by Muslims as the messiah...and yet, christian fundamentalists demonize Islam.
Strange.

I disagree with the claim of incompatibility between Jesus and Judaism, as observant jews can believe their messiah has come and redemption is theirs; as regards common christianity (having moved from its roots and adopting so much pagansim) and judaism, I'll agree completely, though.

Strange indeed, though - I've never understood the disproportionate favor so many christians show to jews in general (I've got a soft spot for judaism as my parent faith, admittedly), or the demonization shown to Islam.

Despite the fact that I don't necessarily agree with Islam, demonizing it is just ridiculous - and unchristian. People are people.

Thanks for the discussion, and stay safe out there.

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:11 PM

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reply to post by NullVoid

I'm not sure what you mean by "sooth-saying". that generally implies a fortune teller, which is forbidden in Christianity.

I've never had a preacher tell me that "God loves everyone". I've heard that come from some few Christians, but never any that had done much study of the Bible. There are severe logical problems with the "God loves everyone" approach. One of which is, how do they explain where it says in the Bible that "God loved Jacob, but hated Esau"? Either God loves everyone, or he doesn't. It can't be both. I suppose that's why I've never heard a Christian preacher claim that "God loves everyone". They know better.

I don't know about being a priest. I've never hung out with priests, and don't know if that would be a job that is worth it or not, considering the potential consequences.

By "usurpation of God", I mean that some Christians see Islam as having co-opted God for their own purposes, and applied that persona to an idol that was among the other 360 or so in the Ka'aba. By "negation of Christianity", I mean that Islam preaches direct opposition to Christian beliefs regarding the person and purpose of Jesus. It makes the Christian religion null and void to remove the power and purpose from it's alleged founder.

By removing the office of Christ from Christ, you no longer have Christ.

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:16 PM

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reply to post by NullVoid

Okay, that's fair. If I am as poorly versed in the history of the Qur'an as you suggest, it should be a simple matter to set me straight. To do that, you will have to answer the questions I posed. I note that you have not yet done that, electing to instead claim that I know not what I am talking about. Fine. SHOW me that I don't have a clue by answering the questions I posed, rather than just CLAIMING I don't have a clue, and leaving it hanging in the air.

What have you got to lose? Maybe you can gain a convert - go ahead, just give it a try!

sk0rpi0n

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:19 PM

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reply to post by Praetorius

christians consider it further revelation of the nature of god that was only previously hinted at or addressed obliquely.

Similarly, muslims consider their faith to also be a continuation of a message that was previously "hinted at".

But however, Christians look at muslims the same way jews look at christians.... as a people who are adding to a scripture that they consider their own.

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:25 PM

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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by nenothtu

We have established the literal translation of "masih". Now we must establish what the word means within the Islamic context.

To put things in perspective... many christians ignorantly assume that the mahdi is the messiah, in Islam.
Then they claim that Islam is opposed to Jesus christ because it calls someone else the messiah. They don't stop to ask questions about what the word "messiah" means in Islamic context... but assume that it means the same thing, except that somebody other than Jesus is the messiah in Islam.

I know who the mahdi is, and I know that he is not the messiah. It is illogical to claim that someone is both the Christ AND the anti-Christ. I did ask you, specifically, what the word "messiah" means in the Islamic context. It does not mean the same thing it does in the Christian context, which is actually the core of my argument.

I've noticed that its always the christians who know that Jesus is messiah in Islam who they try and work their way around the problem by raising questions on the meaning of the word in Islam.

You seem to have mistaken me for a Christian. I'm not that good, and can't claim the title. Questions are raised so that they can be answered. Beware the man who cannot answer a question, and cannot admit that he can't.

The word means whatever it meant in the christian context as well....because Islam was a continuation of the same religion of the biblical prophets and Jesus.

No, it does not. Ask your imam - don't take my word for it. The very Islamic denial of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ demonstrates that they do not mean the same thing in both religions.

Muslims should make up their minds whether Islam is a continuation of Christianity, or predates Christianity. If it is a continuation, then they need to re-examine their beliefs, and incorporate the Christian beliefs as well. There is no continuation when there is a clear break.

Was Abraham a Muslim? If he was, how can Islam be a "continuation" of a religion that arose AFTER the days of Abraham?

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:34 PM

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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

When we say "the world"... are we adding the article "the" to disinguish this particular world from "a" world?
We both understand what world is being referred to, don't we.

Precisely my point. when i say "the world", it specifies this world, and distinguished it from "A world", which could be any world.

Similarly with regard to the messiah, its understood by both christians and muslims that there is only one messiah. "The" is not added to distinguish him from other messiahs.

A single messiah is not the Christian understanding of it. For example, David was a messiah - an anointed king - in his case, of Israel.

In english, when christians refer to Jesus, they say "the messiah". Its either because
a)The word "the" is required for proper sentence construction....
example - "Who is messiah?" sounds incorrect, though the meaning of the question is understood. But Who is the messiah? is a grammatically correct way of asking the same question.
b)Its a reiteration of the belief in just one messiah.

Though, its best that you ask a christian on this matter.

No. In English, "a messiah" carries the same grammatical weight for sentence construction as "the messiah", but the change in the article signifies a change in the particular question. "Who is a messiah?" is just as correct gramattically as "who is the messiah?", but the answer implied is vastly different.

Yes, you are correct, when Christians say "the messiah" in English, they are referring to Jesus, but when they say "a messiah", they are not.

Praetorius

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:54 PM

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reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Similarly, muslims consider their faith to also be a continuation of a message that was previously "hinted at".

But however, Christians look at muslims the same way jews look at christians.... as a people who are adding to a scripture that they consider their own.

Hey, there we go getting to the meat of the matter - it's all about the paradigm we're working in. I myself am working from within the christian paradigm (with a few significant disagreements with the current state of affairs, obviously), hence what I've provided here.

I absolutely understand where the muslims are coming from - given my perspective, I just can't agree with them...just as I can't with most people on a wide range of topics I feel they are mislead about. No offense is intended by my disagreement, as I'm not offended by those who disagree with me - I just like being able to discuss disagreements cordially.

Be well.

sk0rpi0n

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:54 PM

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reply to post by nenothtu

No, it does not. Ask your imam - don't take my word for it.

Chronologically, what we know as Islam came after christianity... AND Islam acknowledges the prophets of the OT and Jesus...so it is a continuation of the same Abrahamic religion.

Conceptually, Islam teaches the same monotheism that we read of in the bible.
The religion of the biblical prophets and Jesus contained the understanding that there is one God who runs the universe.

The very Islamic denial of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ demonstrates that they do not mean the same thing in both religions.

Theres no real connection between Jesus messiahship and his crucifixion.
Christian theology around the crucifixion has only reduced the messiah to a sacrificial animal. So anybody living a life of decadence and sin could simply, at any time.... acknowledge that an innocent man died for his sins and be "saved".

This is not how the bible defines the messiahs role.

Muslims should make up their minds whether Islam is a continuation of Christianity, or predates Christianity. If it is a continuation, then they need to re-examine their beliefs, and incorporate the Christian beliefs as well.

Hang on... I said that Islam is a continuation of the same religion of the biblical prophets and Jesus. ...
Its not the same as saying Islam is a continuation of Christianity.

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:55 PM

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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by nenothtu

No, the Christian concept of a messiah is not necessarily God or a god, it is "annointed king" at it's most basic conception. One must ask himself, then, what it is the Christians think the Messiah is the king of, and what the Muslims think the Messiah is the king of.

Good point.... Now, I'd like to hear it from a christian that Jesus is not God....

That would probably depend to a large extent on what it is they think he is the king of, and whether they back the heresy of the Trinity, entrenched at the First Council of Nicea some 300 years AFTER the events of the Gospels, and not directly supported by any of them. The concept of the Trinity seems to me to be an overly complex idea introduced by the Catholics, and "dumbed down" to try to reconcile the idea with human understanding, and failing miserably.

Separating God out into discrete parcels is ludicrous. It would be like cutting your own hand off, and expecting it to live on it's own.

I am a father, a son, and a worker, yet I am only one person. None of those can be separated out of me to stand on it's own and pointed at, without all of me being there.

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:56 PM

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Double post.

I hate when that happens.

edit on 2012/5/30 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

babloyi

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:56 PM

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reply to post by nenothtu

Originally posted by nenothtu
No, it does not. Ask your imam - don't take my word for it. The very Islamic denial of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ demonstrates that they do not mean the same thing in both religions.

More semantic than anything else (but I guess that doesn't matter, this discussion seems to have gone into semantics already), and I certainly don't think there is anything backing it other than personal observation, but I'd say that the images of sacrificial lamb, and blood sacrifice washing away sin is what comes to mind when talking about "Christ" or "the Christ", however, when talking about "the Messiah", Christians have similar images to Jews and Muslims- an end-times figure that will basically physically save the world, and rule it. In this sense, definitely, Islam and Christianity share the understanding of the Messiah (as do Jews).

While there are many "annointed ones" in the Judeo-Christian scriptures, when you ask a Christian about the messiah, it is pretty obvious which one you/they are talking about. Even with a jew, "the messiah" would be the prophesied one, that they believe is to come. While there ARE many other figures referred to as "Messiah", in general discussion, that fact is mostly just relegated to some interesting factoid for coffee-table discussions "Did you know even the non-jewish King Cyrus was a Messiah?", etc.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Muslims should make up their minds whether Islam is a continuation of Christianity, or predates Christianity. If it is a continuation, then they need to re-examine their beliefs, and incorporate the Christian beliefs as well. There is no continuation when there is a clear break.

Was Abraham a Muslim? If he was, how can Islam be a "continuation" of a religion that arose AFTER the days of Abraham?

I wouldn't think it is all that incomprehensible. "Islam" basically means submission to the will of God. Even Christians and Jews would agree this applies to all the prophets. The generally understood chronology for the current belief system known as "Islam" would be that certain revelations were revealed to certain people at certain times. Some of those got corrupted, some of them were only valid for that specific time. Finally, a final revelation was revealed that applied to all of the world for all of time.

EDIT: Oops. Seems Skorpion already addressed all these points.

edit on 30-5-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)

sk0rpi0n

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:57 PM

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reply to post by nenothtu

A single messiah is not the Christian understanding of it. For example, David was a messiah - an anointed king - in his case, of Israel.

Never heard a christian say that David was "a" messiah.
Christians understand that the messiah is descended from David.

Yes, you are correct, when Christians say "the messiah" in English, they are referring to Jesus, but when they say "a messiah", they are not.

To the best of my knowledge, I believe Christians dont call anybody else the messiah. Its always been Jesus and nobody else.

Maybe a christian can clear this one for me.

Praetorius

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 04:01 PM

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reply to post by sk0rpi0n

You're generally correct here given that "Christ"/messiah has come to be so associated with Jesus himself, but it's just a reference to being annointed, as kings and priests were normally when being appointed.

Cyrus of Persia was also referred to as such, I believe.

edit on 5/30/2012 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)

lonewolf19792000

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 04:43 PM

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reply to post by iIuminaIi

Do you know how Jesus said to tell false prophets and false desciples? Do you want to know how Jesus brands Muhammad a false prophet with his own words? Behold and watch the Messiah convict Muhammad.

Matthew chapter 5, 6 and 7. In fact the entire New Testament convicts Muhammad which is why most of you muslims ignore it, because it forces introspection onto you, and you can't stand to bear the thought all your life you have followed after lies.

Funny that you should speak of John chapter's 14, 15 and 16 because these are where Yeshua directly says that he and the Father are One and tells Philip and Thomas if they have seen him they have seen the Father, one of the many instances he claims to be God.

Yes lets look at those chapters of John to identify your paraclete.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you..

Holy Spirit...Spirit not man. He is a spirit that dwells in you. Not some murdering and pillaging bloke who breaks every one of Christ's commandments along with the Decalogue.

Lets see what paraclete means shall we?

< Greek paraklētos "advocate, intercessor">

Who is the intercessor and advocate of the believers in Christ? He is ofcourse.

John 15:4-7

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

The spirit of Christ is the paraclete.

John 15:26-27

26“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

So Yeshua was talking to his disciples who were jewish christians, not Muslims as the context states there were no muslims at this time period.

John 16:1-4

1“These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

Hm, Just like Muhammad did to early christians in his convert or kill campaign.

Wait a minute what did Yeshua teach again?

Matthew 5:43-44

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

Guess Muhammad failed that test, the battle of Mecca comes to mind.

Can a man love the Messiah if he does not keep his commandments? Lets see what Yeshua has to say.

John 14: 19-24

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

Oops, Muhammad fails this test. Can't believe in someone if you don't even know what his commandmets are much less keep his commandments, that is redundant.

Here's one you're going to hate. Here's that pesky paraclete you mentioned, once again throwing a wrench in your attempts to twist the Holy Bible to your whims.

Acts 2:1-3

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Did Muhammad give anyone the ability to speak languages they never even knew or understand languages they never heard before? Nope, he didn't, but the Ruach ha'Kodesh (Holy Spirit) did. Sorry, paraclete is not Muhammad, that is no Spirit but is a man.

Muhammad FAILS as the Holy Spirit.

, which ofcourse he could perform no miracles or signs, proving he did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in him.

Would you like to give your life over to Christ now and stop following after Muhammad? U2U me and i'll tell you how to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

edit on 30-5-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 05:28 PM

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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by nenothtu

No, it does not. Ask your imam - don't take my word for it.

Chronologically, what we know as Islam came after christianity... AND Islam acknowledges the prophets of the OT and Jesus...so it is a continuation of the same Abrahamic religion.

Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, but not as the Christ - not in the same sense as Christians do. From a Christian perspective, Islam demotes Jesus and negates their religion by denying the reason they believe he came in the first place. To be honest, I've never been sure why the Muslims think he did come -what they think was his purpose in existing 2000 years ago.

Since the fulfilment of his messiahship - vanquishing the dajjal - is yet in the future, why do Muslims think that he came to the party so early, and then had to be taken to heaven to wait around a couple thousand years?

Conceptually, Islam teaches the same monotheism that we read of in the bible.
The religion of the biblical prophets and Jesus contained the understanding that there is one God who runs the universe.

Islam teaches monotheism to be sure, but I'm not at all convinced it is the same monotheism. I suppose, however, that at it's most basic level all monotheism is necessarily monotheistic, regardless of what one calls the Ruler of the Universe, or what attributes one believes he has.

The very Islamic denial of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ demonstrates that they do not mean the same thing in both religions.

Theres no real connection between Jesus messiahship and his crucifixion.

Ah! Now we are getting somewhere! To Christians, the two are intimately connected, and to Muslims they are absolutely disconnected. Christians see his messiahship as having already been accomplished, and Muslims see it as manifesting at some future time. What is it that Muslims think he accomplished during his time on Earth, before he was ascended, that made him the messiah? I know what the Christians think it was, but have never figured out what the Muslims think it was. Instead, they seem content to negate the Christian view, without supplying an alternate reason or rationale.

Christian theology around the crucifixion has only reduced the messiah to a sacrificial animal. So anybody living a life of decadence and sin could simply, at any time.... acknowledge that an innocent man died for his sins and be "saved".

This is not how the bible defines the messiahs role.

that is a gross oversimplification of the Christian viewpoint, and an inaccurate and inadequate conception of the Christian view of the atonement for sins. I have yet to see any sacrificial animal rise from the dead, so the Christians MUST conceive of Jesus as being something more than a mere "sacrificial animal".

In Christian theology, one cannot simply "acknowledge that an innocent man died for his sins" and receive absolution for them. it's more involved than that, although to be fair, I HAVE seen some Christians preach just what you describe, and it sickens me. that cheapens Jesus' death, and in my mind is a demoting of him by itself. I've always referred to it as "trying to get to heaven on a technicality". Even if Christianity IS the way, that approach will fail, and fail hard.

One has to first believe that Jesus had the authority and ability to absolve sin. This is why Christians say that one has to "confess with the mouth, and believe in the heart". There is considerably more to that belief than simply acknowledging that "an innocent man died for their sins".

Only lawyers get you off the hook on a technicality.

Muslims should make up their minds whether Islam is a continuation of Christianity, or predates Christianity. If it is a continuation, then they need to re-examine their beliefs, and incorporate the Christian beliefs as well.

Hang on... I said that Islam is a continuation of the same religion of the biblical prophets and Jesus. ...
Its not the same as saying Islam is a continuation of Christianity.

I stand corrected and apologize. I misunderstood you, and thought you were implying that Christ was the foundation for Christianity.

OpinionatedB

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 05:29 PM

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edit on 30-5-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

nenothtu

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 05:42 PM

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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by nenothtu

Originally posted by nenothtu
No, it does not. Ask your imam - don't take my word for it. The very Islamic denial of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ demonstrates that they do not mean the same thing in both religions.

More semantic than anything else (but I guess that doesn't matter, this discussion seems to have gone into semantics already), and I certainly don't think there is anything backing it other than personal observation, but I'd say that the images of sacrificial lamb, and blood sacrifice washing away sin is what comes to mind when talking about "Christ" or "the Christ", however, when talking about "the Messiah", Christians have similar images to Jews and Muslims- an end-times figure that will basically physically save the world, and rule it. In this sense, definitely, Islam and Christianity share the understanding of the Messiah (as do Jews).

yes, exactly. semantics.

se·man·tics [si-man-tiks]
noun (used with a singular verb)
1.Linguistics.
a.the study of meaning.
b.the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.

2.Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.

3.the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics.

4.general semantics.

Origin:
1895–1900; see semantic, -ics

Source

What I am trying to get at here is the meaning of the word, and specifically the differences in meaning as applied in Christianity and Islam.

Christians believe the messiah has already manifested, and Jews and Muslims think he will manifest at some unspecified future time.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Muslims should make up their minds whether Islam is a continuation of Christianity, or predates Christianity. If it is a continuation, then they need to re-examine their beliefs, and incorporate the Christian beliefs as well. There is no continuation when there is a clear break.

I wouldn't think it is all that incomprehensible. "Islam" basically means submission to the will of God. Even Christians and Jews would agree this applies to all the prophets. The generally understood chronology for the current belief system known as "Islam" would be that certain revelations were revealed to certain people at certain times. Some of those got corrupted, some of them were only valid for that specific time. Finally, a final revelation was revealed that applied to all of the world for all of time.

Islam in a general sense means "submission", but when we speak of Islam in a specific sense, we mean a particular codification that demonstrates that submission, which is at odds in several points with the other codifications from the Jews and the Christians. Islam in that latter sense is a "new" religion, originated by Mohammed, and taking some of it's particulars - especially the stories - from versions of the others, and some pf the apocryphal and pseudepigraphal works in vogue at the time of Mohammed, which have since fallen by the wayside because their was no corroborating support for them from the time of Jesus.

edit on 2012/5/30 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

NullVoid

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 05:44 PM

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Originally posted by nenothtu

Thanks for the interest. I'll try my best to explain in my own terms. I'll use comparison and cut the story short for easier understanding.

Why then did Uthman feel a need to destroy all but one version of the Qur'an in his day?
How did Uthman decide which was the "right" version?
In a related question, why do the Hadiths refer to passages that cannot be found in a modern Qur'an?

Tomato come from South America. A few tomatoes distributed to few people. The UK people called it tomato, Texas called it tomato, and Bangladeshi called it tomato (notice the slang difference ?). Same spelling different pronunciation.

Same goes with Quran in the early days. Then Khalifah Uthman decided, "people goes to war because of these pronunciations difference ?, this cannot go on!", so he ask the prophet families and others who wrote the Quran to give it to him. He ask his subject to have them compiled, rewrote it using the proper Quraish pronunciation, proofread by Quraishes themself, copied, redistributed and order the all the older one to be burned.
So we get - Quran from Mohammad close friends/followers in Mohammad own tribe pronunciation and diminish all other incomplete. Standardization/Canonization is from the beginning so to speak.
Its pretty clear its unchanged - the slang one destroyed and those who remember recites and re approved by others. There are only 2 other different codex, and its difference something like this "its" versus "it is" and some verse/surah/chapter was omitted, thats it.
Later development in writing introduce new things, like vowelling marks comparable to apostrophe, underscores, question mark etc in English. Still the meaning of the wordings does not change.

From now on,tomato is pronounced like how native South American pronounce them and still spelt tomato with varying colours and size.

I hope you are clear on the above subject and accept Quran as "original" like all Muslims else please refer to this link, the Wikipedia version as a fair view to both of us.

Why did Ibn Ma'sud refuse to to give up his copy to be destroyed? I dont know, he want to keep it to himself ?

Assuming the Quran is unchanged and there is only 1 copy of it like the moon, then a simple find and replace will show where the question a bit wrong.

How did Uthman decide which was the "right" moon version?
In a related question, why do the Hadiths refer to passages that cannot be found in a modern moon?
Where does the "original" copy of the moon reside for comparisons to be made?

There is no "right/correct version", no "modern version", no "original copy". There is only 1 copy of it and duplicated, recheck for consistencies. Its never was and never will change.

Can we say the same with Bible ? I doubt and I'm sleepy now. Have a nice day.
Add --------------------------
About God love everyone, I think you can google the exact words, 11million result of it. I dont mean god love everyone literally, what I meant was - Christians practice and preach "love peace on earth" more than "submit yourself to god". Just that, nothing harmful, just wondering where is the "faith" part.

About the "sooth sayer", sorry, I used the wrong words. I dont know the correct words but its talking softly with soothing feeling. All Christian priest/missionary/propaganda do that. Most convert at ease with Christian not because of the teaching but because of the soothing and loving effect.
Its different in Islam, mostly its a warning or remembering of the consequences. Most convert already understood the teaching and submit to it.

edit on 30-5-2012 by NullVoid because: (no reason given)

OpinionatedB

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 05:46 PM

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reply to post by nenothtu

It is NOT a continuation of Modern Christianity...

we are followers of the One True Religion of God, the religion of ALL the Prophets...
(it just so happens Jesus was one of those Prophets, and the one modern Christianity claims to follow)

Islam came as a correction to the mistakes made by Both Christians and Jews in their Books (because of Tahreef) and their interpretation of Prophecy......

Lets face it we do not even believe you have possession of the true Injeel, the book from Jesus (although that is not a written thing in the Quran, it is just something we commonly believe)

We believe modern Christianity is Pauline doctrine and NOT the religion preached by Jesus... We believe Paul took a whole lot of falsehood and mixed it with some truth... and the Church of Christians is founded by Paul and his teachings...

NOT Jesus'

edit on 30-5-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

NullVoid

posted on May, 30 2012 @ 06:12 PM

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reply to post by OpinionatedB

add the Council of Nicea, (2 of them!) to the list too and perhaps different gospels that conflict with each other and some drop.
You know the result already - helluva of denominations with sprinkles of pagan.
Please pick one that you like and fits your agenda

Western Christianity
Adventist · Anabaptist · Anglican · Baptist · Calvinism · Evangelicalism · Holiness · Independent Catholic · Lutheran · Methodist · Old Catholic · Protestant · Pentecostal · Roman Catholic

Eastern Christianity
Eastern Orthodox · Eastern Catholic · Oriental Orthodox (Miaphysite) · Assyrian

Nontrinitarianism
Jehovah's Witness · Latter Day Saint · Unitarian · Christadelphian · Oneness Pentecostal