Is this the REAL reason for chemtrails?

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posted on May, 30 2012 @ 01:18 AM
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reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


Soooo....for the last 4 years the "chemtrails" that they have been spraying for the last 20+ years have been having a negative effect on your plants?

Can you think of any reason why I would be skeptical of the causal relationship you're establishing here?




posted on May, 30 2012 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by adeclerk
reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


Soooo....for the last 4 years the "chemtrails" that they have been spraying for the last 20+ years have been having a negative effect on your plants?

Can you think of any reason why I would be skeptical of the causal relationship you're establishing here?


Listen darling,

Go back and look at my original post. I believe I said it was "my conclusion". I didn't pay attention to chem-trails until I was faced with something I saw as a problem and began to try to figure it out. I can care less if your skeptical, disagree or whatever... I wasn't trying to convince you. I would have rather had someone reply with some more logical reason as to why I am seeing this problem, maybe a suggestion as to why it was unlikely whatever.. Where do I claim to be an expert on this matter? I see no value in your post. Are you implying that I am dumb for coming to my conclusion? If so, thanks for your comment and your contribution. ,!,,



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


Basically, if "chemtrails" have been sprayed for the past 20 years, why did it not affect the plants earlier than 4 years ago? Most likely because there is no connection. There's no reason to connect water vapor in the sky to the ailing health of your plants, anyway.

Edit: Not implicating that you are unintelligent, brother, just pointing out that there is no basis for the causal relationship you have established.
edit on 5/30/12 by adeclerk because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by adeclerk
reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


Basically, if "chemtrails" have been sprayed for the past 20 years, why did it not affect the plants earlier than 4 years ago? Most likely because there is no connection. There's no reason to connect water vapor in the sky to the ailing health of your plants, anyway.

Edit: Not implicating that you are unintelligent, brother, just pointing out that there is no basis for the causal relationship you have established.
edit on 5/30/12 by adeclerk because: (no reason given)


You claim they have been dumping this stuff for 20 years. Since you are making claims as if you have all this knowledge on the matter... feel free to show me some supporting evidence as to this spraying in my state (Ohio).
I would have to say, that I have a strong suspicion that if you were right (which hasn't been established yet) that they have increased their activity within the last four years.



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


There are plenty of other pollutants in our environment that can cause what your talking about, and then add to that the changes in the weather over the last few years. Acid rain being a darn good example, especially living in the Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania area of coal and steel production. A better question though, is have you depleted the nutrients in your soil? Have you checked your soils PH levels? There is a reason why farmers rotate crops and let fields go to wild.



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by ScatterBrain
 


According to the "chemtrail conspiracy" (have a look at wikipedia, rense, etc) the believers claim that the "spraying" has been happening for 20+ years. It's common knowledge in the "chemtrail" community.

There's actually 2 reasons why your causal relationship has no basis.
1.) If "chemtrails" were real, why would they only be affecting your plants in the last 4 years, and not in the last 20?
2.) Chemtrails aren't a real thing substatiated by evidence, they are just ordinary contrails mistaken to be an anomaly by people who have no education in meteorology. Water vapor 5+ miles above your head would have no affect on your plants.



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Hi and Thank you Defcon5,

I guess I did not even think of acid rain because it's old news and this problem seems to be a fairly recent event (just the past few years). I dismissed the soil because my garden is a container garden, so I buy pre-conditioned soil every year. I suppose, I could have run into a bout of bad luck with bad soil? It was a combination of factors that made me look into other causes.
1. The trees in my yard (various types) are not as healthy looking.
2. Our vegetable plants are not producing as much as they used too and the plants that normally thrive do not look healthy, they lack the luster I am used to seeing.
3. Our pets have been wheezing more and have been sick more often (all of them), and they will not drink the water as much as they used too (last 6 weeks).
4. Chit chat at the neighborhood store revealed that we were not the only ones experiencing upper respiratory issues, and psoriasis (totally odd)

I considered all kinds of things but it seemed logical to find out what is in all that spraying being done in the sky. I miss the sun; maybe we are not getting enough of it. That is when I did a lot of reading... and learned about the experiments being done in our atmosphere. I am somewhat of a scatterbrain, so I understood what I read in geoengineering but I cannot articulate it well (I guess it takes practice)..

I could not explain in detail how the acid rain phenomenon lead to chemical transport models and nanotechnology; I am just not smart enough to grasp the complexities of heterogeneous reactions and all that higher mind stuff. I couldn’t if my life depended on it, explain anything like that.. I did understand the concept and some of the issues that I read though. So, I concluded that, since the experiments stepped up and it definitely effects every aspect of our environment, water, air, soil, plants, animals humans…because that is the intention…just like those vaccines we can inhale… then imagine that we can pick a town, any town and mass vaccinate (or whatever) … well pretty cool.

I didn’t want to try to explain how I came to my conclusion in detail because as you can see I am not good at writing what is in my head, and well…. I am a little sensitive, I was afraid someone would go on flaming me for not being as smart as them. *shrugs
I will be happy to share with you the dissertation information if you would like by private mail (I am so new to ATS, I still can’t even get the basics down yet lol).



posted on May, 30 2012 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by ScatterBrain
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

First let me address your concerns regarding “chemtrails”. The truth is there is no such thing. I worked in aviation up until the early 2000's, on British Air, Air Canada, Canadian, Continental, Midway, Spirit, Southwest, America West, Northwest, Lufthansa, Evergreen, ATA, Air Mexicana, Air Jamaica, Kayman, Braniff, and more charters and commuters then I care to type out. I worked on all aircraft from prop commuters up to and including the last of the BA Concords (before they were retired). I used work as a ramp agent, tugger, fueler, lead agent, and finally supervisor for ramp operations. There was nothing of any substance getting on any of those aircraft that I was not aware of, because I personally oversaw what was loaded, and had to provide for its weight and balance. So believe me when I tell you that no one is spraying anything in those persistent contrails you are observing.

Now with that said, it is true that persistent contrails are increasing, but its not due to any nefarious spraying. What has happened is that the airlines started upgrading their aircraft in the mid 90's, which changed the bypass ratio of the engines. The newer, higher bypass engines make more persistent contrails, and they do it over a wider range of atmospheric conditions.

The old aircraft such as the main airline workhorse, the B727, used to use JT8D engines such as this:

The newer aircraft have gone to CFM56 style engines like so:

Look at the difference between your pre to mid 90's aircraft styles:

And your late 90's to 2000's style:

Now that may not seem significant, but look at the difference in the High vs Low bypass in two aircraft flying through the same air mass under the same conditions:

That is what your “Chemtrails” actually are, not chemicals, not nanobots, not organic matter, but simply ice and normal combustion engine exhaust.

You also claim that respiratory infections are on the increase. Well, believe it or not, I now work in the medical field, specifically for a Pulmonologist, and we are not seeing any increase. As a matter of fact business has been down. What has seemed to be increasing is lung nodules, but personally I believe that to be from the change that was made to cigarettes a few years ago, when they added the FSC (fire safe cigarette) chemicals to them.

Now I am NOT an expert at botany, but from my limited experience failure of plants to thrive is from soil PH levels. This is pretty common down here in Florida. If I planted corn, without adjusting the soil PH levels, it would not grow taller then 2-4 feet, and would produce few, if any, cobs. That is because our soil down here is too acidic, and needs to have alkalinity added to it for corn to thrive. Being in the Coal/steel belt, I would certainly check your PH levels, and see if you are getting high PH from acid rain. Its very possible that you are being exposed to some type of contaminate, but its a stretch to try and blame it on something that is happening 30K feet above your head, when you have sources that more directly influence things much closer in proximity.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 08:58 AM
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Hi and thank you defcon5,

You said,
"First let me address your concerns regarding “chemtrails”. The truth is there is no such thing. I worked in aviation up until the early 2000's, on British Air, Air Canada, Canadian, Continental, Midway, Spirit, Southwest, America West, Northwest, Lufthansa, Evergreen, ATA, Air Mexicana, Air Jamaica, Kayman, Braniff, and more charters and commuters then I care to type out. I worked on all aircraft from prop commuters up to and including the last of the BA Concords (before they were retired). I used work as a ramp agent, tugger, fueler, lead agent, and finally supervisor for ramp operations. There was nothing of any substance getting on any of those aircraft that I was not aware of, because I personally oversaw what was loaded, and had to provide for its weight and balance".

That is way cool

You said,
"So believe me when I tell you that no one is spraying anything in those persistent contrails you are observing".

I’m sorry but Everything that is done in regards to government, as you well know is compartmentalized. I can see by the pictures you shared (thank you) that you are passionate about flight. However, are you comfortable saying that because you have not witnessed this activity where you worked, it just isn’t happening? I don’t wish to be rude but, I think that is pretty naïve. I offered the share the dissertations with you to demonstrate why I have come to my conclusion. I respectfully disagree with your argument sir, I see it as weak at best. Nice pictures though.


you said,
"That is what your “Chemtrails” actually are, not chemicals, not nanobots, not organic matter, but simply ice and normal combustion engine exhaust".

I disregarded all the part where you explain to me what contrails are and the differences in them from yesteryear, I saw it as a red herring (distraction from the issue). (If you elaborate on the chemicals compounds that come naturally from combustion engine exhaust (like salt or something), then maybe you would compel me to look into that as well).

You said:
"You also claim that respiratory infections are on the increase. Well, believe it or not, I now work in the medical field, specifically for a Pulmonologist, and we are not seeing any increase. As a matter of fact business has been down. What has seemed to be increasing is lung nodules, but personally I believe that to be from the change that was made to cigarettes a few years ago, when they added the FSC (fire safe cigarette) chemicals to them".

Your comments in regard to respiratory issues.. I laughed, nice play on words. I am just not able to take the time to pick that apart, If I was talented in the creative writing art, I would have already demonstrated those skills, as you see I am not 


You said,
"Now I am NOT an expert at botany, but from my limited experience failure of plants to thrive is from soil PH levels. This is pretty common down here in Florida. If I planted corn, without adjusting the soil PH levels, it would not grow taller then 2-4 feet, and would produce few, if any, cobs. That is because our soil down here is too acidic, and needs to have alkalinity added to it for corn to thrive. Being in the Coal/steel belt, I would certainly check your PH levels, and see if you are getting high PH from acid rain."

Well actually, you actually said something here that supports my conclusion not yours. I believe the material being sprayed does effect the ph levels. Actually, I am not sure your profession but, really smart guys in the field a chemistry say this is so (and much more). I am assuming they are smart guys because the government uses them.

You said,
" Its very possible that you are being exposed to some type of contaminate, but its a stretch to try and blame it on something that is happening 30K feet above your head, when you have sources that more directly influence things much closer in proximity."

To say it is a stretch that I am blaming something that is happening at 30k feet above my head, would be a good argument if people didn’t make errors. The fish showing up on the banks, and the birds dropping from the skies in my opinion demonstrate a lack of consistency . Reports also indicate issues that are consistent with problems distributing this technology evenly. Oopsy right 

Again, I will be happy to gather together the dissertation information and share with you, if you like. Thank you for engaging me in this conversation. However I have not changed my opinion, as of yet.
p.s. thanks again for the pictures, those are way cool



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 09:07 AM
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Hello VoidHawk,


Originally posted by VoidHawk
Many people researching chemtrails say they contain metals of various types. Now, any electrical activity in the atmosphere would without doubt interact with metal particles.

If we imagine a fine layer of metal particles fairly evenly spread throughout the atmosphere, and we then scan the area with radar not much will show up UNLESS there’s some electrical activity.
If a craft using anti gravity for example were to enter an atmosphere that is full of metal particles it will cause one of two things to happen.

1. The metal particles will be attracted to the craft, or each other.

2. The metal particles will be repelled away from the craft.

Question: What IF these chem trail particles had a coating on them? What IF they were not distributed "evenly"?

Thank you in advance



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by ScatterBrain
I’m sorry but Everything that is done in regards to government, as you well know is compartmentalized. I can see by the pictures you shared (thank you) that you are passionate about flight. However, are you comfortable saying that because you have not witnessed this activity where you worked, it just isn’t happening? I don’t wish to be rude but, I think that is pretty naïve. I offered the share the dissertations with you to demonstrate why I have come to my conclusion. I respectfully disagree with your argument sir, I see it as weak at best. Nice pictures though.

I am 100% certain that there is nothing to this.
First reason is that I have personally witnessed my aircraft do the same things that Chemtrailers claim as spraying activity.

The second, and more important reason, is that US airspace is 99% civilian traffic. It is under civilian control, not military, and the military has to fly in that airspace according to the rules of the road that are set by the civilian FAA. When a military flight is outside a military operations area, they have to either follow the same VFR or IFR rules as everyone else, or close/restrict the airspace. If they were going to do some type of operation that presents a hazard to other air traffic, then the airspace must be publicly closed and NOTAMS filed. This is done very publicly as civilian pilots need to know in advance where and when this is happening to file their flight plans. So this idea that the military can just go up there and dance around the sky in any fashion that it wishes is nothing more then lack of understanding of how the system works, and/or reading/watching too much fiction about how the system works.


Originally posted by ScatterBrain
I disregarded all the part where you explain to me what contrails are and the differences in them from yesteryear, I saw it as a red herring (distraction from the issue). (If you elaborate on the chemicals compounds that come naturally from combustion engine exhaust (like salt or something), then maybe you would compel me to look into that as well).

JP exhaust is nothing more then diesel gas (kerosene), the only differences between diesel, kerosene, and JP is the amount of sulfur and additives. When airport diesel ground equipment is fueled, its done with the same JP that goes into the aircraft themselves. So the pollutants created by JP are the same as what comes from a diesel truck. This is simple to look up, and I am sure that you can do so without my help.


Originally posted by ScatterBrain
Your comments in regard to respiratory issues.. I laughed, nice play on words.

I'm not seeing a play on words, I was quite straightforward in what I said.


Originally posted by ScatterBrain
Well actually, you actually said something here that supports my conclusion not yours. I believe the material being sprayed does effect the ph levels. Actually, I am not sure your profession but, really smart guys in the field a chemistry say this is so (and much more). I am assuming they are smart guys because the government uses them

I'd love to hear from someone who claims to work for the government and claims to have some knowledge of chemtrials. I've known a lot of guys who work in all these fields, and other related ones, and I cannot name a single one who believes in chemtrails. Not to hurt your feelings on the subject, but go to a pilots forum, search on chemtrails, and you'll find that they make fun of the subject.


Originally posted by ScatterBrain
To say it is a stretch that I am blaming something that is happening at 30k feet above my head, would be a good argument if people didn’t make errors. The fish showing up on the banks, and the birds dropping from the skies in my opinion demonstrate a lack of consistency . Reports also indicate issues that are consistent with problems distributing this technology evenly. Oopsy right 

Die-offs have always happened historically, and date back to well before we even had airplanes. So where are these reports coming from? Carnicom? Chemtrail Central?

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by ScatterBrain

Question: What IF these chem trail particles had a coating on them? What IF they were not distributed "evenly"?

Thank you in advance



Hi ScatterBrain
I'm not quite sure what your getting at so I'll assume your question is - Would a coating or uneven distribution blow my theory apart. ??

Its difficult to prevent electromagnetic influence on metal particles. You would need to shield them, but how?
I dont see how a coating could achieve that.

Uneven distribution is not a problem. Imagine a cubic meter of space with particles floating about in it. even if most of the particles moved to one side of that space they would on average still be spaced apart.
Now imagine one side/face of your cube is magnetic. All the particles would now stick to that surface. To a radar it would look like a sheet of metal and become very visible.

I realy dont know much about chemtrails. As I said in the op, I believe something is being sprayed, I just have a problem believing that its deliberately harmful because even those spraying it will eventualy breath the same air that we breath.

Hope I understood your question properly



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 08:07 PM
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Interesting thoughts on the reason for Chemtrails. I have heard of the rason for spraying is depopulation, hiding Planet X, weather modification, and now locating UFO,s. You may have something. There are metal fillings in the chemtrails and something penetrating this barrier could be detected. They spray in my area, Nashville, almost everyday and the balance of the time we have white out conditions. The days of deep blue skies are gone. We are living in interesting times and this is a part of it.



posted on May, 31 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by tennesseewatchdog
Interesting thoughts on the reason for Chemtrails. I have heard of the rason for spraying is depopulation,
failing at that hiding Planet X, weather modification, and now locating UFO,s. You may have something. There are metal fillings in the chemtrails .....


Have you found an actual chemcial analysis of a chemtrail somewhere?



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by VoidHawk

Hi ScatterBrain
I'm not quite sure what your getting at so I'll assume your question is - Would a coating or uneven distribution blow my theory apart. ??

Not at all, I asked those questions to engage in a thesis type dialog with you. I know little about this stuff, I just happened upon some information when I was trying to figure out if chemtrails might have been the cause to the problems I listed in a previous post. I'm not the smartest woman in the beauty shop but, from what I read, It seemed to support my conclusion but, I know, I have a habit of not completely thinking things though... ( I was reading about experiments with coatings on mineral particles). So when I saw your statements I was just picking your brain, I in no way intended to offend, I was more hoping to toss around ideas in regards to the possiblities, if that makes sense.

Its difficult to prevent electromagnetic influence on metal particles. You would need to shield them, but how?
I dont see how a coating could achieve that.

Maybe not, but if we are able to give a virus a coating, why couldn't mineral particles be coated with some material to meet the needs (whatever they are).

Uneven distribution is not a problem. Imagine a cubic meter of space with particles floating about in it. even if most of the particles moved to one side of that space they would on average still be spaced apart.
Now imagine one side/face of your cube is magnetic. All the particles would now stick to that surface. To a radar it would look like a sheet of metal and become very visible.

Ah, makes sense thank you. But, if say hypothetically, the objective was to specifically target certain areas as well as specific effects, including timing (eh.. I am so not good at saying what I am trying to say with words ;( ).

I realy dont know much about chemtrails. As I said in the op, I believe something is being sprayed, I just have a problem believing that its deliberately harmful because even those spraying it will eventualy breath the same air that we breath.

I would have to agree that if any harm is caused, it may not be intential. But, I can't rule that out either simply because we have a lot of cool warfare stuff and that does intend to harm.

Hope I understood your question properly


Please forgive me if I messed up on quoting proper, I still haven't mastered the basics of ATS yet.Thanks for engaging me VoidHawk, I do find this topic interesting



posted on Jun, 2 2012 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by ScatterBrain
eh.. I am so not good at saying what I am trying to say with words ;( ).


thats me, we could be here for some time



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5

JP exhaust is nothing more then diesel gas (kerosene), the only differences between diesel, kerosene, and JP is the amount of sulfur and additives. When airport diesel ground equipment is fueled, its done with the same JP that goes into the aircraft themselves. So the pollutants created by JP are the same as what comes from a diesel truck. This is simple to look up, and I am sure that you can do so without my help.


The difference is a bit more fundamental than just sulfur and additives, it's to do with the length of the hydrocarbon molecules. The longer the molecule, the less volatile the fuel. Jet A is Kerosene, but it's not diesel.

www.wisegeek.com...


Diesel fuel is about 18% heavier than gasoline and consists mainly of hydrocarbons that range from C10 to C24, meaning 10 to 24 carbon atoms with various configurations of hydrogen atoms attached to the carbon atoms. Gasoline, on the other hand, is usually in the C7 to C11 range, while kerosene, used for jet engine fuel, is weighted just between diesel and gasoline in the C12 to C15 range. The higher the number of carbon atoms, the heavier the product.



posted on Jun, 3 2012 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Since you say you are 100% certain there is nothing to this, and since you limit your mind to the possibilities of our modern technologies, there is no point in carrying this conversation further with you. Good day.



posted on Jun, 5 2012 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by Uncinus
 

My point was that its essentially the same thing as diesel, and is interchangeable with it.
Diesel, Kerosene, and JP are interchangeable fuels, each can be run in any equipment that the other will run from. The aviation addatives are simply there for safety reasons (de-ice, anti-static, etc.).



It was specified in 1990 by the U.S. government as a replacement for government diesel fueled vehicles.

The U.S. Air Force replaced JP-4 with JP-8 completely by the fall of 1996, to use a less flammable, less hazardous fuel for better safety and combat survivability.

The U.S. Navy uses a similar formula, JP-5. JP-5 has an even higher flash point of > 60 °C (140 °F), but also a higher cost, limiting its use to aircraft carriers and other situations where the danger of fire is greatest.

Outside of powering aircraft, JP-8 is used as a fuel for heaters, stoves,[1] tanks,[2] by the U.S. military as a replacement for diesel fuel in the engines of nearly all tactical ground vehicles and electrical generators, and as a coolant in engines and some other aircraft components. The use of a single fuel greatly simplifies logistics.

JP-8 is formulated with icing inhibitor, corrosion inhibitors, lubricants, and antistatic agents, and less benzene (a carcinogen) and less n-hexane (a neurotoxin) than JP-4. However, it also smells stronger than JP-4. JP-8 has an oily feel to the touch, while JP-4 feels more like a solvent.



posted on Jun, 5 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by ScatterBrain
reply to post by defcon5
 


Since you say you are 100% certain there is nothing to this, and since you limit your mind to the possibilities of our modern technologies, there is no point in carrying this conversation further with you. Good day.

I don't limit our “modern technologies”, what I do limit is that this is happening. Its not happening because it could not be done in secret. Just the FAA rules of our airspace prohibit it from occuring in secret. The idea that the military can do this without civilian knowledge is incorrect, as I have shown above, the military must run within civilian rules when in civilian airspace. This is a law, and its one that would be quickly noticed by civilian pilots if it was being violated.

Even our existing top secret aircraft have to operate within the laws required for the airspace they must cross. For example, a secret spy aircraft would have to climb out on a base with a large operation area, until its at an altitude above IFR limits, it must fly below IFR limits, or it MUST file a flight plan with the FAA on leaving the MOA. Even Airforce One follows these rules, just look up the communications with the civilian FAA on 911 when they were trying to hide it and the controllers were secretly handing it off to each other in an attempt to protect it.

Now if our spy planes must do this, then how do you think that these thousands of chemtrail sprayers are getting away without doing it on a daily basis? The answer is simple.... They're not!





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