Do I have freedom FROM religion?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I would agree with that. They could give play time to those who don't want to pray, and let others form little groups according to how they want to do things. The muslim kids could just do their prayers and the Christians could form a circle and do a prayer. Buddhists and Hindus could just find a nice tree and meditate. They could just devote an additional 15 minutes to lunch hour for it.

Knowing kids, they might all just want to play, and that would be their choice.

Sure...taking out 15 minutes as either play-time or prayer-time should be no big deal.

Still, I think the real problem here is that they took out the Pledge of Allegiance because Progressives have this intense fear of anything which calls up nationalism. Ironically, it was a socialist who made up that prayer and a Christian who added the words, under God, to it.

Im not sure children can grasp the meaning of all that, so I wouldn't see it as that big of a problem. As adults we are more capable of chosing what we pledge allegiance to.

reply to post by SaturnFX


OP, Great premise for a thread. I suppose technically we do have freedom from religion, but there are lots of Right Wing nut jobs who would just love to force their superstitious beliefs upon all of us ala Taliban-style.
If conservative christians were to get their way, they would have their own westernized "christian" version of Sharia Law that they would like to impose on our society as a whole. No need to hit the bullet points, we all know what their agenda is by now.
Yeah, I wish we had freedom to choose when we want to be exposed to religion instead of having religious believers presume that they know what's best for everyone. Self-righteousness is a built-in component of most religions, so most believers feel entitled to try to impose their world view on others, which we have unfortunately seen demonstrated throughout history many times over.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Not the response i intended but hey ok what i meant by that is the interiors of a church and courhouse are set up the same and that can't be coincidence now can it?

The judge and a pastor either sit or stand in the highest place of authority and bring down judgement to all the flock/witnesses.

Do not think people have really look how deep religion has played in this society.

Actually, I read a book ages ago about the architecture of cathedrals, the whole thought process behind it
the church doors were shaped like a womans private bits to symbolize going back into the mother, a subtle place of comfort and protection, the windows the same reminder, the interior to have a grand feel in order to push a ominous feel, the rised levels, etc...
cant even remember the books name now (the wife at the time was reading it, I sort of got into it by over the shoulder reading.
But ya, every aspect is to enforce the rule of the guy at the front in the cool robes.

Best cathedral I have seen was the one in Milan..was breathtaking. towers reaching up to a dark shadowy ceiling you couldn't see that looked like pillars going up to space...every inch of every pillar with hand carvings of something, etc
Wasn't overly impressed with St. Pauls..too gaudy...reminded me of some Vegas glitterdome. Still, worth the visit (especially the whispering room above..that was nice).

reply to post by SaturnFX


Dear SaturnFX,

Home schooling requires the criteria of math, science, etc...so yes, home schooling is required to cover evolution.

Just to be clear. You support my children having to be taught something that I may or not believe (Evolution - which in fact is not my enemy, it is how I believe God designed the universe to work); but, your thread is about why you and yours should not have to be in the same position. This is no different then what I ask of Christians, do you want to force a Jewish or Muslim or Scientiologist teach your child religion in school?

What if I don't want my child taught Algebra, should I be allowed to opt them out or does the states interest overrule my rights as a father? In regards to education, the issue is not religion, the question is what should the state require our children to learn and believe. Once you address that question, the next question is what should the state be prohibited from requiring our children to believe. When does the parent get to be the teacher and when does the state get the right to require you to hear and recite as the truth. The Soviets required you to believe in communism to even graduate school. I would never require people to believe in God in order to graduate, what would you require them to believe.

These are serious questions and not an attempt to create animosity. The answers will define what rights you give the state to raise your children, mine are already grown and I have no grandchildren yet. When I do, I will rely on what I have learned to answer their questions. Peace.

Does anyone here object to the use of Masonic symbols in Washington DC?


www.cuttingedge.org...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


That was read before Congress, each member of Congress was handed a copy, each signed it and it was printed in the papers with no outcry from the populace.

Does the 1796-97 Treaty with Tripoli Matter to Church/State Separation?
(7th and 8th paragraphs)

The treaty was written and signed by many of the founding fathers. So what it says relates explicitly to how they viewed the establishment of the country.

Originally posted by moonzoo7
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

OP, Great premise for a thread. I suppose technically we do have freedom from religion, but there are lots of Right Wing nut jobs who would just love to force their superstitious beliefs upon all of us ala Taliban-style.
If conservative christians were to get their way, they would have their own westernized "christian" version of Sharia Law that they would like to impose on our society as a whole. No need to hit the bullet points, we all know what their agenda is by now.
Yeah, I wish we had freedom to choose when we want to be exposed to religion instead of having religious believers presume that they know what's best for everyone. Self-righteousness is a built-in component of most religions, so most believers feel entitled to try to impose their world view on others, which we have unfortunately seen demonstrated throughout history many times over.

Well, you do make it sound so simple. In order to keep schools totally secular, the educators had to scrub all the books of any references of any kind. What that did was to totally sanitize everything from even the normal stuff that at least I know many of us grew up with. So while they may have wanted to just stop any blatant religious proselytizing of a religion, they ended up having to eliminate it entirely from all the books and materials.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Dear SaturnFX,

Home schooling requires the criteria of math, science, etc...so yes, home schooling is required to cover evolution.

Just to be clear. You support my children having to be taught something that I may or not believe (Evolution - which in fact is not my enemy, it is how I believe God designed the universe to work); but, your thread is about why you and yours should not have to be in the same position. This is no different then what I ask of Christians, do you want to force a Jewish or Muslim or Scientiologist teach your child religion in school?

What if I don't want my child taught Algebra, should I be allowed to opt them out or does the states interest overrule my rights as a father? In regards to education, the issue is not religion, the question is what should the state require our children to learn and believe. Once you address that question, the next question is what should the state be prohibited from requiring our children to believe. When does the parent get to be the teacher and when does the state get the right to require you to hear and recite as the truth. The Soviets required you to believe in communism to even graduate school. I would never require people to believe in God in order to graduate, what would you require them to believe.

These are serious questions and not an attempt to create animosity. The answers will define what rights you give the state to raise your children, mine are already grown and I have no grandchildren yet. When I do, I will rely on what I have learned to answer their questions. Peace.

Educating the population is a national security issue (we need some people whom know how to work nuclear reactors sort of thing) and an economic imperative (unless we want to be the dirt farmers of the world). So, it became mandatory...that is an argument (why should the state tell me to teach my child anything)...

land of the free indeed.

Evolution does not require a belief system. It was taught to me, in a catholic school, like this: This is the current theory of evolution based on scientific uncoverings. the picture is not complete, and it may be incorrect, but the best understanding we have today is as followed...(then something about monkeyfrogs and turtlebunnies...don't remember the specifics).
We were allowed to question it (and many did).
So, to answer the question..yes, state interests do overrule your right as a parent in some aspects of your raising (but I want my daughter to watch porn all day! She needs to please her man when she gets married!....ya, that just sounds wrong..time to bring in the state and question your fathering ability).
Ya, I just dropped the porn defense (when you don't understand something, mention kids and/or porn and you win the debate).

The criteria is the same though...agreeing or disagreeing on the concept of requiring education itself is a completely different discussion. I am personally for it, but do acknowledge there are oppositions based strictly on ideals...still, I would rather have a slightly authoritative nation of moderately educated people than a free nation of morons.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

So, your thoughts...do we have freedom from religion?

Yes... from all of them except the extremist fundamentalist evangelical cultists who thump the bible instead of reading it then shove it down your throat against your will while telling you that you will burn in hell for eternity if you believe any small detail different than what they believe (which is usually an incorrect intepretation of the bible they thump instead of read). All the others allow you to have your beliefs as they are allowed to have theirs.

They also have the devine authority to judge each and every action you may make but you are not allowed to judge or even question their actions because they are led by God himself and endowed with perfection just because they say they believe what their uneducated, untrained "pastor" may tell them. If you question anything from his lips, you will burn in hell for all eternity. If you find a verse in the bible that contradicts them, you are satan and should be immediately burned at the stake for witchcraft because God spoke to them in their dreams, they repeated it in tongues and they are entitled to act on his behalf due to their being overcome by the holy spirit, even though the rest of the world calls it psychosis.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


What difference does it make? It still was for the purpose of dealing with foreign countries, and not what they expected to take place in classrooms at home.

Contrast it with today

But the simple fact is that the present government education system has as its foundation an anti-Christian philosophy known as Secular Humanism. All one has to do to confirm this is read the two Humanist Manifestos. The first, written in 1933 by young Unitarian ministers, asserted that the spiritual power of orthodox religion was in decline and that it should be replaced by a rational, man-centered, non-theistic religion.

"Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world."

In the January/February 1983 issue of The Humanist magazine, a young scholar by the name of John J. Dunphy expressed the aim of humanists in education with these very blunt words:
"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects that spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of educational level -- preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new -- the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of "love thy neighbor" will finally be achieved."

Mr. Dunphy did Christian parents a great service by telling them exactly what humanists want to accomplish in the public schools. Humanists are forever paying lip service in asserting the separation of church and state when it comes to keeping Christianity out of the schools.

www.ritalindeath.com...

Originally posted by facelift
reply to post by randyvs

 

So you just want to attack me Face ? Is that why you want to have a beer with me ? Try'in to set me up huh?


How did you know..?! As a matter of fact, I just tried out my new 'concoction' on this whiskey drinking squirrel...

Now, I just need to find one that drinks beer, and then my plan can go forward..!

Try a racoon, they're notorious for it! Everyone knows squirrels prefer hard liquor

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Does anyone here object to the use of Masonic symbols in Washington DC?


www.cuttingedge.org...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

Bit too subtle for my outrage.
I haven't spent much time looking into it. wondering how much of it is intentional and how much is just conspiracy theorists doing what they love to do.

There are of course masonic influences building many governmental structures worldwide since like...forever. they also are a theist based group..so, they will certainly put hidden meanings into their works to the trained eye.

On a more practical note...what can they do, destroy DC all together and start over? been like that for quite a long time, can't change it now...not like..can't because its part of our culture...but can't because it would be physically imrpobable.

And it can be passed off as nothing..you are not taught the lady on the top of the building is whatever...hera or whomever it supposed to be..its lady freedom

Actually, I know this is a deep and interesting study (I watched national treasure after all). and I do cringe when I hear msm talking about such things as if there is nothing odd at all about it...but, its not overt..not a huge glowing golden sheeps head on the white house lawn...you need a near history degree and a helicopter in order to notice such stuff...so, arguably harmless conversational pieces.

From a historical aspect though, I do find it highly interesting..one day I am going to read all the zaney conspiracy theories and research the history (if only to find the secret rooms of gold)

Originally posted by lucid eyes
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

If you want to see nothing at all that has anything to do with religion, move to atheist paradises such as North Korea. Many parts of Russia are still atheist-zones after the Soviets destroyed churches.

A school option would be to have those who wish to start the day with a prayer have a specially designated room for it. Banning prayer at school is one of the main reasons in decline of school performance in the U.S.

If they want their day started with prayer, then they need to send their children to a private Christian school. The public schools are for everyone, but if you want more than what they offer, you have to pay for it yourself.

reply to post by PurpleChiten

Yes... from all of them except the extremist fundamentalist evangelical cultists who thump the bible instead of reading it then shove it down your throat against your will while telling you that you will burn in hell for

I have yet to walk down a street and have Christians do that to me against my will. You know the old cliche, just say NO and walk away. Maybe you meant the JW, in which case I have found that placing a statue of Buddha on the front porch works very nicely. JW is cultish anyway and does not classify as a traditional church.
I do however remember many years ago, the ISKCON people used to prowl around streets and shopping malls hawking their books on Krishna Consciousness. Actually those books have marvelous pictures in them and are great interpretations of Hindu scripture. I still have one I think.

The Pledge of Allegiance is what it is.. You still have a choice man.

Believe in a higher power or don't.

I prefer to believe in humanity.

But that has let me down since the day I was born.

Much love,

Theprimevoyager

reply to post by SaturnFX


You have freedom from religion as you have freedom from anything else. If you do not like it then ignore it. Quite simple really. It's like channel surfing, if you do not like the show you change the channel.

But, do I have freedom from religion? Can I go to public places and not have my children or I indoctrinated into any form?

So, does this happen with anything else? Or is it just religion? If someone is trying to force feed you a cheeseburger will you eat it and then complain? Of course not, you will shut them down immediately. What astounds me is why someone being open about their religious view is so excruciating that people want laws passed so they do not have to look at it in any form. (Not saying you do but, look at the track record of those that oppose religion)

I say, if you are a bible thumping Christian (insert the rest here) you are entitled to that as long as you are not causing me direct harm.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Point by point, most of the tenants of the humanism movement isn't bad..some very astute observations and ideals.

Turning it into a religion is absurd. Its better for a general society guideline than a spiritual endeavor. I don't subscribe to all ideals they put forward mind you (humanism states clearly to pick, choose, alter, or otherwise fit into your lifestyle. they are not grand wizards, they are trying to set up a overall perfect society mantra.

I am going to quickly get off this subject because I know no matter what I say, you will demand I subscribe to all tenants and see it as a religion...neither of which I do, but my current, rather normal, view of it goes against the narrative you want to paint on anyone that accepts much of secular humanism. been down this road before and it leads to a brick wall.

just saying, dont toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

1) Does the POTUS have the right to state "It is the official position of the United States of America that Republicans are dumb
Because thats what this is...a subjective view is being pushed as an objective stance for all.
There is no difference here. Your opinion is yours, until you make laws to push your views onto me..which is what this is about.

Lets stamp the money with "Republicans are dumb". You have the right not to agree with it of course...you have the right to not use money
While we are at it, lets tack on to the end of the pledge One nation, under god, republicans are dumb, indivisible, with liberty...etc"
.

.... that actually sounds like a pretty good idea, when do we start?

reply to post by SaturnFX


So as long as you don't notice it, it's alright. MMkay.

How about the eye in the capstone. That is a masonic symbol. The eye is symbolic of the Great Architect.

By the way, I am one of those people who appreciates George Washington having been a Mason. I think the fact that the Illuminati muddied Freemasonry is a tragedy.
watch.pair.com...
But I think somehow the background of Freemasonry as an occultic organization as the foundation of our country is lost on seculars and atheists.

Kinda hard to take Christianity out of society when it was Jesus that founded Western Civilization.