Do I have freedom FROM religion?

If yes, then why are some wanting to have teacher lead prayers back in school, under god in the pledge, or in god we trust stamped on the money?

So all our rights come from god in this country and not government so if you want freedom of religion then that would mean one wants no part of the constitution.

Replace god with government a false prophet religion is not evil government is not evil it is the same answer since the beginning of time the problem is man playing god.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

What most don't understand is that, todays flavor is christianity..tomorrow probably will be islam, then after that..who knows...startrekism....

And yet somehow, people who avidly promote this concept seem to have no problem at all sending kids to a mosque on a field trip. It really isn't about getting all of religion out, it is getting rid of that pesky Christianity the liberal seculars hate so much.

Couldn't be more wrong.
But, I am warming up to the whole islamification thing..not because I want even a little bit of power for them to be established..but if thats what it takes..the =threat= of islam gaining governmental power in order to get christians thinking about what they are doing by pushing more in the religion field, then perhaps thats whats needed.

no, a secularist wants no religion held by the government..no christianity, no islam, no buddism, none of that...that is for churches, homes, restaurant conversations, etc

like me saying christians want us to all become wiccans...because of...whatever reason. No..they don't. period.

Originally posted by whyamIhere
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Every so often she will throw out this little Chestnut.

She will argue for 100 pages.

In the end she is a skilled debater.

My experience arguing Religion on ATS is like competing in the Special Olympics.

You might win.....But your still retarded.

Frikkin FUNNY!
2nd line

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Just replace all those religions you named with "secular humanism" and then ask the same question, can I go out in public with my children and not have my whole family inundated with indoctrinating and brainwashing propaganda and absurd advertising.
I saw an ad today that totally blew my mind, and I don't know how they let it stay, but it involves a woman and a cat and some cat food then it shows a woman in bed, on top.....and then shows her and the cat on the sofa after. It's too bizarre and you may think nothing of it, but it is unacceptable nonsense. I may even call the station to complain(and I've never done that ever).

Thats free market. they don't get my money unless I pay them to..they are not speaking for me..the government is.

and what..you don't like cats? shesh..(more of a dog lover myself actually.)

Please don't be coy with me. It was very clearly suggestive....of bestiality. If you don't see a problem with that, I rest my case.

As an afterthought, so advertising a woman in bed with a cat(well it suggests it but you don't actually see the cat but you know it by the suggestion) is free market, but a Christmas card with a tree on it is not?

edit on 27-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I didn't say there isn't a problem with it..didn't see the commercial, so have no opinion on it. But, I am not forced to buy their product, and if it is offensive to me, but doesn't violate laws..I will either ignore it, or boycott the company until they remove the offending ad.

Do you not see the difference between the government and a corporation? (granted, the lines are blurring a lot these days)

As far as a christmas card with a tree and whatnot..why would I have a problem with that?

reply to post by SaturnFX


Dear SaturnFX,

You have a rational viewpoint, being someone whom is quite religious..I value your opinion as a thinking christian. Your view then on my stance?

I think I like your stance. I believe I should be free to believe what I want and hear what I want and that you should have the same freedom. One of my professors was an atheist (or agnostic, I don't know if he ever decided), his name was Robert L. Cord and the book was called "Separation of Church and State: Historical Fact and Current Fiction". He argued (correctly) that the Constitution would allow prayer in school (and from a legal point I have to agree with him, read the book for yourself and draw your own conclusion). I took the contrary approach, I said that as a believer I didn't want religion is school because it would involve my children being forced to hear my beliefs explained by one who may or may not believe them.

As for being a "thinking christian", I have certainly been called much worse. I will give you some history that may help you understand my perspective. My parents were Catholic and sent me there for training. I have no problem with that. I didn't agree with what I was taught; but, I really liked the Jesuit priests that I met, they were incredibly open to me questioning them. At 12, I decided that I hadn't found the proof I needed and told my parents that I would no longer attend church. To say the least, they were not happy, my mother actually cried; but, I did not go and nothing would have made me other than physically forcing me there.

I spent the next decade researching different religions and their history and beliefs. I also began researching secret societies. After over a decade I heard a man who explained the resurrection and some other things. Based on my research and my understanding I became a believer fully. Obviously, I have continued investigating things or I would not be on this site. I chose my path and would not force my path on anyone. God doesn't need me to save anyone, our job is to have an answer for the hope that is within us and it doesn't say we have to be nice. I detest the washed down christians that are on television, they believe nothing except in rituals bringing rewards. I don't want them teaching my children either. Now, what I do have a problem with is my being told that I have to teach my children things I don't believe if I choose to home school them. Would you force a home schooler that they must tell their children that evolution is true and that there is no God?

reply to post by SaturnFX


Then it must be all the religious Islamists in education being allowed to drag our children into a mosque during school hours? See you justify the whole thing by pretending it's not part of the program. And the rest of your post about allowing it to teach Christians a lesson is just plain one of the most naive things I have heard. I say that with love in my heart, because I really like you.


But you know the serpent told Eve that she would not SURELY die if she ate of the fruit. (not saying she would either....get the drift?)

i'm afraid noone has freedom from religion, but the cool thing is you get to choose which one you like, or make up your own.. scientology anyone?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
your simply lacking the cognative ability to process the point.

what utter nonsense.

When you were younger did you think "Some day I am going to spend my time on Internet Forums practicing condemnation without examination"?

And..care to back up your ascertation on how declining school preformance = lack of teachers instructing prayer?

You having already branded it utter nonsense there would be no point backing it up, would there? Trying to fill a closed vessel would be a waste.

Now To use your absurd talking point against you.. If you want god in the statehood, why don't you move to saudi arabia, or afghanistan? they are quite happy with pushing religion on you...

My suggestion was to give students the choice to pray or not pray. Thats something different than making prayer mandatory for everyone or removing it entirely. The way the discussion is framed ("bring prayer back!" vs. "remove all religion!") is divisive and ineffectual.

See how incredibly stupid that sounds?

Giving people a choice of whether they want to pray or not pray in school is fine.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Well, maybe I misunderstood you. Your OP was that you didn't think you could go out in public without having to deal with constant religious artifacts around. Generally if one goes out in public one is not in the schools unless one is picking up their child. So you don't have a problem with advertising for Christmas presents and such, or cards with say, a picture of Jesus on them? Or how about a church with a cross on it? Is that horrific in your view?
Does it bother you to hear church bells on Sunday?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

But you know the serpent told Eve that she would not SURELY die if she ate of the fruit. (not saying she would either....get the drift?)

Paul Harvey has something to say on this topic

Originally posted by AQuestion
Would you force a home schooler that they must tell their children that evolution is true and that there is no God?

Home schooling requires the criteria of math, science, etc...so yes, home schooling is required to cover evolution.
Like a private school however, you can put things in perspective and suggest alternatives...my aim is at public schools, not private schools, not home schooling. Teach the criteria, and you can spend the rest of the night giving opposing viewpoints if you want..your kids will hate you for doubling the lecture time, but thats your choice

You may not believe in math, and how 1 + 1 should equal 28...so long as you teach them the curriculum as presented, then your fine.

Will probably hand the thread over to you...I am an atheist..if I say stabbing dogs in the throat is bad, they will stab a dog on the throat just to go against anything I bring to light...you might be able to communicate the absurdity of state branded deitys for consumption..now in dollar form, and now king of the united states armed forces..hoo-rah

reply to post by lucid eyes

Giving people a choice of whether they want to pray or not pray in school is fine.

I would agree with that. They could give play time to those who don't want to pray, and let others form little groups according to how they want to do things. The muslim kids could just do their prayers and the Christians could form a circle and do a prayer. Buddhists and Hindus could just find a nice tree and meditate. They could just devote an additional 15 minutes to lunch hour for it.

Knowing kids, they might all just want to play, and that would be their choice.


Still, I think the real problem here is that they took out the Pledge of Allegiance because Progressives have this intense fear of anything which calls up nationalism. Ironically, it was a socialist who made up that prayer and a Christian who added the words, under God, to it.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Well, maybe I misunderstood you. Your OP was that you didn't think you could go out in public without having to deal with constant religious artifacts around. Generally if one goes out in public one is not in the schools unless one is picking up their child. So you don't have a problem with advertising for Christmas presents and such, or cards with say, a picture of Jesus on them? Or how about a church with a cross on it? Is that horrific in your view?
Does it bother you to hear church bells on Sunday?

edit on 27-5-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Perhaps a poorly written sentence on my behalf...when I say public, I mean like..courthouses and the like..places where my tax dollars go, put up and maintained with more of my tax dollars.
Someone planting a cross on their lawn doesn't annoy me...a church having a big manger scene on their stuff doesn't bug me..hell, if Denny's restaurant wanted to put up a picture of muhammed, thats their business, as its their business (I wouldn't eat there..both out of general dislike, and also not wanting to be blown up)

I am pretty focused here...we have had many pages now of people trying to distort the point..one person a few pages back said they wouldn't mind if on the dollar bill, it was officially stamped "republicans are dumb"..they could just ignore it (not seeing the massive implications of indoctrination).

Freedom OF religion is also freedom FROM religion. The founding fathers didn't want an official state-sanctioned religion to prevent any citizen from being persecuted for their own particular faith. If your views are agnosticism, then you should not be persecuted any more than someone whose faith is Buddhism, Judaism, or Islam.


If people are so adamant that the USA be a "Christian nation" and want to make it a part of government services, then WHICH Christian faith gets the official state sanctioning? Roman Catholicism? LDS? Jesuits?

The Treaty of Tripoli (1797), which was unanimously signed by all members of Congress, states the following:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The goal was simply to have the US government neutral to religious faiths so that NO ONE could be persecuted for their beliefs.

The religious tyrants that are pushing the government to be declared an official extension of the church just want to have the ability to persecute those not of their faith. Even if it means isolating a Muslim or Jewish kid in the classroom by forcing them to participate in a religious rite not in accordance with their own faith, or to see Christian symbols decorating their schools.

reply to post by SaturnFX

, I mean like..courthouses and the like..places where my tax dollars go,

Ever wonder why courthouses and churchs look and feel about the same?

Second

reply to post by SaturnFX


I see, well that's fairly reasonable, but some are not so...they have been trying to force churches to not put out the creche in their courtyards if it's seen from the street.

Again,

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

, I mean like..courthouses and the like..places where my tax dollars go,

Ever wonder why courthouses and churchs look and feel about the same?

Second

One you have to pay a ton of money to get the right representation in order to get you off of crimes you committed.
and the other is the courthouse

zing..pow...will be here all week.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Not the response i intended but hey ok what i meant by that is the interiors of a church and courhouse are set up the same and that can't be coincidence now can it?

The judge and a pastor either sit or stand in the highest place of authority and bring down judgement to all the flock/witnesses.

Do not think people have really look how deep religion has played in this society oh and we pay them both money or fees.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I see, well that's fairly reasonable, but some are not so...they have been trying to force churches to not put out the creche in their courtyards if it's seen from the street.

Well, I don't know what to tell you...there are idiots on both sides of the fence here. I do try to stick up for people where applicable, to even slam my own "side" when they are in the wrong.

the people with the smallest minds tend to have the loudest voice...but reasonable minds from their own side have a bit of a responsibility to tame their stupid mouth when appropriate and refocus on the actual issue.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


That was in dealing with foreign dignitaries, not allowing public schools to pretend they are against all religion while promoting Islam in sneaky snake ways.