Before There Was Welfare There Was Charity

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by sonnny1

 

You make a very good point but your sentiment that morality is a weakness I cannot agree with.

And I'd like to ask if you think animals, besides human, have morals?

Are you irreligious? If not, maybe morals are the reason God(s) took interest in us?

anyways that's kind of off topic but yeah I agree but not to any such extremes as to abandon morality or believe we would all fall into chaos without laws.

edit on 26-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)

Star for you.

I only say Morals are a weakness,when man forgets his "unalienable rights ",and gives in to anarchy,or pure Governmental control . I do believe in God. Religion,not so much. Call me crazy,but I also believe certain animals have a sense of morals also. If not morals,a sense of "commitment" in a sense,to other souls. Dolphins have saved humans stranded in the ocean,as example. I dont think you have strayed from the topic,you actually added to it,regardless if some might not want to talk about it,or think it holds no importance. Man has strayed from his Moral compass. That is my actual opinion,of it . I believe in giving,but I also believe in doing for yourself. I believe Humans have grown apathetic to the next mans needs,and have put dollar signs,next to word "help'. People have their hands held out,because it is now, the norm to do so. Not just the one percent,but ANYONE that has . Desensitized,Man has become.

Originally posted by neo96

And God:

God helps those who help themsevles

God never said that, that phrase is never uttered in the bible.

I think it is unsavory to attribute false a quote to god -

Maybe you should read the word of god instead of make it up?

I think the first one applies to your heart from what I have read.

I cannot find a single biblical quote that specifies the government assisting people
as evil or wrong. But I can find many quotes that condemn those who take up
a position which serves to neglect the poor or leave them to the winds.

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."
-Proverbs 29:7

"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."
-Proverbs 22:16

"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses."
-Proverbs 28:27

"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."
-Proverbs 14:31

reply to post by Beanskinner


But all those quotes refer to charity, which is voluntary....not state sponsored theft from one, to gift to another....

why does that difference elude you?

In the New Testament Paul lays down the rule, "if any would not work, neither should he eat."

Another attack from the right on government assistance? No surprise there!

I bet if all the money the Government spent on food stamp programs went straight to the military budget and towards paying the pointless wars that were started by Bush & his henchmen, most of you would be clapping like seals and nodding like bobble heads.

Why should people be at the mercy of other people? The government implements an income tax on everyone who works. So why should tax paying citizens not have a safety net in case they go unemployed or if they cannot afford to feed their family?

"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward." - FDR

reply to post by sonnny1


Thanks.

I agree with some points you've made and animals do seem to show traits of compassion for sure, maybe even morals. I still hold to my premise though. In principle, man of course should always try to do for himself, but that is very hard right now without compromising his morals, without having any resources to start out with, or without help. How anyone can believe that someone with no home, no job, and no resources can work for minimum wage, and save up all while doing it alone - I just do not know. No, you must have help - you must.

To add to your list: Boy falls into gorilla pit and the gorilla protects him.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


That is why the loss of family values, sense of community, has really hurt us..the way things used to be (I sound so old)...people would come together....families/friends lived together to share expenses, work, raising the children....not look to the government to bail them out...we need to help each other and ourselves.

It's going to take some lesson learning to....not everyone can be rich or have everything, we live in a society that thinks everyone SHOULD have an Iphone, 2 or 3 cars, vacations every year, tv in every room, priorities are screwed up!

reply to post by timetothink


Well help from family is nice, but taxes are supposed to be used to help one another. Taxes are to be used for every aspect worthy to our nation... but we're being conditioned to think taxes are just for the nation(the bosses) and that the nation is separate from the people. That is not what our nation should be.

Originally posted by timetothink
reply to post by Beanskinner

 

But all those quotes refer to charity, which is voluntary....not state sponsored theft from one, to gift to another....

why does that difference elude you?

In the New Testament Paul lays down the rule, "if any would not work, neither should he eat."

edit on 26-5-2012 by timetothink because: (no reason given)

You catagorize it that way, the state sponsored theft (INSERT ITEM HERE) can be applied

to many things. from roads, to bombs, to uniforms, to electrical wires all of which are funded

by money that came from someone being taxed or theft if we are going to be hyperbolic. But

you and Neo go out of your way to take issue with the poor and condemn them. Not the 700

billion dollars we spend on bombs, bullets and death. Or the tens of billions that subsidize the

Oil industry - Or (INSERT LINE HERE)

No... You two chose to rally opposition and contempt towards the poor of all the thousands of

things you could chose to oppose. Jesus never preordained the method of helping the poor and

he never condemned attempts to do so. But the entire Christian religion does condemn those who

oppose and seek to chastise the needy, there is no parsing of that to be found.

And in the end, is this not done in the spirit to protect the economic system the bankers champion?

Take as much as possible and then Take some more, then blame the people with nothing for

the lack of abundance???

Again taking the side contrary to the biblical perspective of Jesus Christ...

We must neglect the poor and look the other way because America mustn't take from the bankers.

If I can only count all the times the bankers have taken from me and my kin, yet I have NEVER had

a poor or hungry person take from me.

You guys have the nerve to blame people with very little as if they are the source of scarcity???

This is why there is not enough in the world? These people are stealing?

reply to post by Bleeeeep


That's what the new definition of taxes has grown into, not what was intended at all....the conversation has come full circle back to the mess started in the early 1900's

Originally posted by timetothink
reply to post by Bleeeeep

 

It's going to take some lesson learning to....not everyone can be rich or have everything, we live in a society that thinks everyone SHOULD have an Iphone, 2 or 3 cars, vacations every year, tv in every room, priorities are screwed up!

Yes, screwed up indeed.

Especially when people use the bible as a tool to bemoan poor people -

reply to post by timetothink


I understand what you're saying but when you break down what the nation is supposed to be - it is supposed to be for us by us. (us as in we the people, not U.S. as in the united states)

We have to ensure that at least basic needs (food, proper healthcare) of every citizen are met. Can charity on its own do it? I doubt it, we only have to look at all the nations without a welfare system (in the past or present) to see that it is often inadequate. Also, charity and welfare can coexist, so it is not one or the other.

It concerns me that a lot of people think that Welfare is the only reason why some countries are in debt.

It's the same here, if you are on Welfare you are a scrounger and you are the sole reason why the country is in debt.

The same things get spouted everytime in threads such as these;

"I don't want my tax dollars/pounds going to lazy scroungers who can't be bothered to look for a job or who pretend they are unfit to work, blah blah blah"

You all think that's really where all your tax money goes? If you do you are incredibly ignorant.

Stop believeing the MSM headlines, they are there to distract you from where your money is really going.

Most of your tax lines the pockets of the Governements for their pet projects and their high life. It also gets sent overseas to help other countries, whilst yours is also suffering, it gets spent on unnecessary wars and also gets used to help bail out big banks and corporations when they fail....Need i go on?

I notice some in this thread and others like it saying how people on welfare need to stop relying on handouts and get up and do something about it as the only people that can help them is themselves.

Now, why can't the banks and big corporations get up off their lazy well paid behinds and help themselves too. They rely on handouts just as mush as an unemployed family of three or someone who is disabled. Yet they get much much more.

You all need to stop blaming the average Joe and start looking into why your Country is really in debt.

George Washington said: "There is no practice more dangerous than that of borrowing money; for when money can be had in this way, repayment is seldom thought of in time, the interest becomes a loss, exertions to raise it by dent of industry cease, it comes easy and is spent freely, and many things [are] indulged in that would never be thought of if [they were] to be purchased by the sweat of the brow." Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Thomas Jefferson said: "No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain their right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Read more: www.foxnews.com...

James Madison said: "That is not just government, nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has in his personal liberty is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the less..." Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Alexander Hamilton: If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare… The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America.

Thomas Jefferson: The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

James Madison: As a man is said to have a right to his property, he may be equally said to have a property in his rights. Where an excess of power prevails, property of no sort is duly respected. No man is safe in his opinions, his person, his faculties, or his possessions. If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions. It is sufficiently obvious, that persons and property are the two great subjects on which Governments are to act; and that the rights of persons, and the rights of property, are the objects, for the protection of which Government was instituted. These rights cannot well be separated

I hope everyone is getting my point here.....the progressive view of taxing and giving to the less fortunate is not supported in fact by our founders or their writings no matters how hard they try to rewrite history.....they are wrong wrong wrong!!!!!

Originally posted by Beanskinner
I would much rather feed people than waste

good money on bombs that blow up, kill and have no potential to grow in positive ways.

You might as well set money on fire

I think people are more precious than bombs or killing, by a long shot.

Starred for truth I believe you'll enjoy what Bill Hicks has to say about this (if you haven't seen it already.)

Starts at 1:16

"Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master." Dwight D. Eisenhower

reply to post by Xaphan


But our country cannot survive without defense......stop equating a strong defense with useless wars, they are 2 different things...we must have a military to defend our country and people...

Originally posted by timetothink
reply to post by Xaphan

 

But our country cannot survive without defense......stop equating a strong defense with useless wars, they are 2 different things...we must have a military to defend our country and people...

I wasn't saying that a country can survive without defense. I was agreeing with what that other poster said:

Originally posted by Beanskinner
It does not call for an offensive military that takes 700 Billion dollars to fund every years.

Like other posts have proven, you love spending as long as it fits into your agenda. That

agenda sounds very Neo Conservative to me - I would much rather feed people than waste

good money on bombs that blow up, kill and have no potential to grow in positive ways.

You might as well set money on fire

I think people are more precious than bombs or killing, by a long shot.

There is a big difference between a defense system and an offense system.

So you're saying that the rise in welfare caused a decline in community?

No.

You're blaming the treatment for the disease.

What happened is community decreased when industry/Capitalism started to take hold. People flocked to cities because they were dirt poor and tied into an ECONOMIC SYSTEM that demanded hierarchy and every-man-for-himself mentalities.... all in the name of "progress". Welfare was the bandaid to this, not the cause. Get your reality straight and stop trying to dupe these poor people.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Beanskinner

 

f you want to bring up Neo Con, you are the person who claims to be conservative and also champions the military industrial complex and war spending. Which some would say is the markings of a Neo Conservative. Talking about poverty is logical because we are talking about poverty. Poverty manifests itself the same way where ever you find it, we are not yet Mexico City, but we could be and I doubt you would like it more than this current manifestation of America.

Actually the US constitution clearly defines by law providing for the common defense of this country after all

All that free food,free homes,free educations free everything did not stop Pearl Harbor and the first world trade center attack or the attack on the Uss Cole or 9-11 and it sure as hell did not win the cold war.

More people die from TREATABLE DISEASES (and lack of healthcare) every year than died in Pearl Harbor or the aforementioned terrorist attacks. Now, I'm not trying to downplay those events, they were surely terrible acts of war. But you need to take a step back, STFU, and realize what's actually going on before you create false divisions/links between unrelated circumstances.