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Before There Was Welfare There Was Charity

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posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:24 AM
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reply to post by Bleeeeep
 





The problem we're addressing though, is them using their mental capabilities to enslave us. I know you know that.


Those who seek help from others seek to be enslaved since they give up their own innate power and that is a fact.

The best way for people to be helped is when they help themselves the only people they can count on who will never let them down and who will never screw them over for a vote to stay in office.

Themselves.
edit on 26-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


The both of you are dangerously close to advocating a nobility of poverty and arguing that you cannot flourish and prosper and also be good. The universe is abundant. Life is abundance. The world is abundant, and the scarcity paradigm is a sham. There are enough resources on this planet for everyone of the 7 plus billion people to be a millionaire a million times over. Why aren't we all flourishing and prospering? Because there are too many people preaching a nobility in poverty.

Kant say's: "Forget happiness do your moral duty." Kant laid the foundation for Marxism. Kantism has influenced far more people than are even aware of him. I say to Kant:

Happiness is your moral duty! Flourishing and prospering is crucial element of happiness.

Sometimes it is better to survive than not to survive, but it is never better to subsist.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by doomedtoday
 


So?

Playing the victim card and peddling the victim mentality?

Doesn't fly with me be mad be mad all you want still don't pay the bills or the governments but oh wait they can't pay their bills and neither can those who are on welfare.



I'm not attempting to play a victim card, I'm simply stating facts. I know that there are indeed people like yourself in this world who believe that we should live under some archaic system where those born less fortunate will never have any rights. Have you ever even for once in what I can only assume from the kinds of posts you have is a completely miserable life, considered that some people who might have been born under much worse conditions than people like yourself can actually posses intellect? Or are you stuck in some fantasy middle ages type or mindset?

I'm guessing you think I get welfare lol. Well you're wrong so don't hate me for taking your money, don't worry I'm not. I've tried to get housing assistance and nothing else, and I'm assuming that because I'm going to college they will not help me. I'm living off of student loans and full time work during the Summer/part time work during school and nobody will pay me anything more than $0.20 above minimum wage. EVERYWHERE I try to rent from checks for how much money I have coming in and they have all turned me away because they claim I do not make enough money to pay all of my bills. I just want a place to live with my wife and children and I'm very willing to work for that if only there was such a thing available. Why do you think I've tried section 8, everyone keeps telling me I'm too poor for a 2 bedroom apartment, house, or even a crappy trailer around here. I know the government has a thing where you pay like $300 a month and they pay the remainder but the wont even allow me to receive benefits such as that...

And you know what, there are others out there in the same situation as my family. Honest hard working people who want to be able to provide for their own families but the government is too busy helping out those who don't care and need the help for a lifetime rather than those of us who just need the help long enough to finish school and get a real job. I mean you always hear about how welfare was originally intended to be a form of temporary assistance for those who need it and not life support...

Lets make sure we have one thing straight though old wise one. Some of us should practice something called respect for our fellow man. Do not paint false portraits of one and then spit in their face. I do not appreciate being hated for taking money of which I am receiving none of. I get student loans, I'll be paying those back. I was given two options in life, go to school and take loans which I will be paying back, or not go to school and take welfare which I would never be financially capable of paying back. Since it's obviously hurting you so much either way, which would you prefer I do?

For the sake of staying on topic because your trolling has indeed hit a nerve in me

Do I support a welfare system in America? Yes.
Does that system need a drastic overhaul? Certainly.
Is it bad to help those who are born under less than ideal circumstances? Not at all.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by neo96
 

Just because the U.S. welfare system sucks doesn't mean welfare systems in general suck... it just means Americans suck at setting up their welfare system.

Same goes for unions and other social institutions too...
I read that many Americans here on ATS dislike trade unions, basically because U.S. unions are set up disfunctional.
Same thing... just because you're doing it wrong doesn't mean it's bad in general... it just means you're bad at it.

Now I don't want to patronize U.S. Americans... you are absolutely entitled to have yourself a bad welfare system or even abolish it... but you might want to specify that it's your systems that suck.
edit on 26-5-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


For your premise to be accurate I would have to sacrifice my ethics, and I do not play dice with the devil. That should be clear. They have the upper hand because the lengths they will go to I will not.


Ah, but because my premise is accurate is precisely why I challenge you on your ethics! It is a shame you haven't recognized that, it only lends more credence to my challenge, and casts suspicion on your claim of being ethical. As I have said, I have no doubt you are ethical. What is in doubt is your sanity, awareness, and goodness.

You spend too much time measuring others goodness, and their ethics to convince me that your ethics are up to par.



the question is, is it your place to worry about his goodness? what makes it your personal crusade to analyze the goodness of someone who doesn't effect you... when others in power effect MANY.

Those who chose not to exact their power over others can actually be seen as powerful in the absence of it's use. they prove that power in the wrong hands leads to corruption. They PROVE some people to be unfit to tell anyone else what to do.

sorry, just had to interject because some in my life have done similar hings as if it's their soul mission to pick me apart as if me being good or bad has any lasting effect on their world... and it's only been meant to demonize. they have been able to fool some into thinking it's a push... or a challenge to get someone to rise up to a higher potential, when that is just a quest for power and some chose to be powerless because they already know that the power within themselves is not such a superficial idea as material power.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:31 AM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


That is absurd man. You're questioning my ethics, because I can see evil for what it is?
It's not like I'm saying I'm the holiest person on Earth, I'm just saying I would not do what it took to take care of the problem. There are lengths I will not go to.

Let me put it into perspective for you:
There is a card house and inside are umm... 90 tables.
At each of those tables people are playing a different card game and they range from the least unethical to the most unethical. Lets just say lying on up to murder.
Now to be allowed in the back room to play where the 1%ers are, you have to at least have earned a large enough chip set to be be let in but to do that you have to play through all the other 89 tables.

In the analogy I am in fact in the card house but I will not play through the tables to get to the 1%ers.
edit on 26-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: had to fix a word



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:32 AM
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reply to post by doomedtoday
 





I'm not attempting to play a victim card, I'm simply stating facts. I know that there are indeed people like yourself in this world who believe that we should live under some archaic system where those born less fortunate will never have any rights


That is as far as i read no point in going on any further since you need to quote exactly where i said that and further more do you know me or have any idea what i have done in the real world?

No you don't.


edit on 26-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


The both of you are dangerously close to advocating a nobility of poverty and arguing that you cannot flourish and prosper and also be good. The universe is abundant. Life is abundance. The world is abundant, and the scarcity paradigm is a sham. There are enough resources on this planet for everyone of the 7 plus billion people to be a millionaire a million times over. Why aren't we all flourishing and prospering? Because there are too many people preaching a nobility in poverty.

Kant say's: "Forget happiness do your moral duty." Kant laid the foundation for Marxism. Kantism has influenced far more people than are even aware of him. I say to Kant:

Happiness is your moral duty! Flourishing and prospering is crucial element of happiness.

Sometimes it is better to survive than not to survive, but it is never better to subsist.





do not preach what some already know. it is not the problem of the world's resources but the mismanagement of those who think they OWN the world.

this nobility in poverty is not the cause of the world problems... are you kidding me?

It's GREED. it's those who take by force.

at least the poor often learn to survive without screwing others over or realizing that their jobs are not worth their pay... only they refuse to accept it. many refuse to accept the damage their jobs are doing to the rest of the world... and that can be described in so many ways.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


Thanks for sticking up for me.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by Bleeeeep


I think that most people are basically good, but all people are not basically good.


Most people are complacent,if society has laws. Throw laws out the window,and humans will eat each other,out of necessity. Humans will kill for food. Humans will kill for sport. That is something that has always been,regardless of morals and principles.


Originally posted by Bleeeeep
I think that saying, all people are not basically good, would very well explain why society is oppressed by a small portion of itself. 1%ers


Humans have always been oppressed,not just because of other people,but because of what the elements have provided,or have not provided. Humans have always gravitated towards other Humans,as a survival mechanism. As with Animals,the greater the odds of survival,when with your own kind,then on your own . In the animal kingdom,predators attack the weak,because its easy. In society,those that you view,as being attacked,are either mentally weak,or physically weak. Good or bad is not even part of the equation,when you look at it as a survival mechanism.




edit on 26-5-2012 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by NotAnAspie
 


Thanks for sticking up for me.


no problem.

It is no one's job or right to throw guilt trips on you in a world you KNOW is not fair to all... and no matter what, someone will always suffer when there is no balance... yet so many try climbing to the top on the heads of others.

If people could understand that quest for power is not nearly as important as the humbleness of balance, we wouldn't be having these issues. If ANYONE suffers, we ALL suffer. We have to stop ignoring this but so many refuse, they have everyone else engaged in that destabilizing quest of power... and the wheel goes round and round.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by sonnny1
 


You make a very good point but your sentiment that morality is a weakness I cannot agree with.

And I'd like to ask if you think animals, besides human, have morals?

Are you irreligious? If not, maybe morals are the reason God(s) took interest in us?

anyways that's kind of off topic but yeah I agree but not to any such extremes as to abandon morality or believe we would all fall into chaos without laws.
edit on 26-5-2012 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by Bleeeeep


I think that most people are basically good, but all people are not basically good.


Most people are complacent,if society has laws. Throw laws out the window,and humans will eat each other,out of necessity. Humans will kill for food. Humans will kill for sport. That is something that has always been,regardless of morals and principles.


Originally posted by Bleeeeep
I think that saying, all people are not basically good, would very well explain why society is oppressed by a small portion of itself. 1%ers


Humans have always been oppressed,not just because of other people,but because of what the elements have provided,or have not provided. Humans have always gravitated towards other Humans,as a survival mechanism. As with Animals,the greater the odds of survival,when with your own kind,then on your own . In the animal kingdom,predators attack the weak,because its easy. In society,those that you view,as being attacked,are either mentally weak,or physically weak. Good or bad is not even part of the equation,when you look at it as a survival mechanism.




edit on 26-5-2012 by sonnny1 because: (no reason given)


that is the carnal law of the beast. mankind has touched almost all corners of the earth. we have communication and transportation systems where this fails to be an excuse anymore to not do what is right. We are getting closer to completion. In this sense, it is actually GOOD the world is so full of so many talented people in all areas of life... but the actions of some are going to throw us back into a time where people are much more scarce if they survive at all. a nuclear war CAN do this... and again, the fragile lines of communication are once again broken, just like it was stated in another thread when conquistadors destroyed some of the most important information that could have been handed down to us by the Mayans about our universe concerning their calendar systems. it's very ironic, but that is how the beast operates... on all sides.

those who refuse to stand up for what is right for fear of starving or being homeless or being laughed at in society... THEY are weak. they are weak in spirit for obvious reasons, they are weak in mind because they do not understand the equation of balance and they are weak in body because they cannot do without and they know it.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:56 AM
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I prefer Shakespeare:

“Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry. This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

And God:

God helps those who help themsevles

Government:

Helps those by robbing from peter to pay paul


Popeye and Whimpy:

I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

All rights we have as Americans come from God not government



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by doomedtoday
 





I'm not attempting to play a victim card, I'm simply stating facts. I know that there are indeed people like yourself in this world who believe that we should live under some archaic system where those born less fortunate will never have any rights


That is as far as i read no point in going on any further since you need to quote exactly where i said that and further more do you know me or have any idea what i have done in the real world?

No you don't.


edit on 26-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


You are very correct, I do not know you, nor do you know me. It seems very much like we have both been very immature tonight though and acted as if we do know each other. It was very unprofessional of me to judge you and I will go ahead and step up as the real man I like to believe myself to be and apologize for that. It just really pi$$es me off that our country has gone so to hell that my grandfather was able to join the military at 16 and do over 20 years, finish and work at a factory 40 hours a week and be considered middle class but nowadays that is not an option for my generation. I was denied acceptance into the U.S. Air Force because of "mental health" issues, they actually told me to seek disability, as have many others. The thing is I do not want to leech off of the system for my entire life, there are many things that I can do and do well with proper training and I believe it should be my right as an American to have such an opportunity. I do not want to simply give up and depend on others, I just want the opportunity to earn a living and prove to my children that we make our own path in life and I'm positive that there are indeed many others in similar situations. Sorry for any offense, this is a very sensitive topic for me and I do have a tendency to get a bit out of hand in some debates.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 02:04 AM
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reply to post by NotAnAspie
 



Originally posted by NotAnAspie
those who refuse to stand up for what is right for fear of starving or being homeless or being laughed at in society... THEY are weak. they are weak in spirit for obvious reasons, they are weak in mind because they do not understand the equation of balance and they are weak in body because they cannot do without and they know it.


That was amazing!

A very inspiring and very well said point.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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To quote a 1% er......


“I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a living but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.” – J.D. Rockefeller



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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edit on 26-5-2012 by timetothink because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Beanskinner
 


I got a news flash abject poverty exists in this country right now even with all that so called help that keeps the people right where they are no tomorrow better than any other their yesterdays..

Pure evil.


edit on 26-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)
[/quote

No Neo, we do not have anywhere near abject poverty in America because we actively repress it




posted on May, 26 2012 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by NotAnAspie
 



Originally posted by NotAnAspie
those who refuse to stand up for what is right for fear of starving or being homeless or being laughed at in society... THEY are weak. they are weak in spirit for obvious reasons, they are weak in mind because they do not understand the equation of balance and they are weak in body because they cannot do without and they know it.


That was amazing!

A very inspiring and very well said point.



thank you, thank you.. it hits me in spells.


and now I'm off to take a break and amuse myself with nonsense.

Balance!


take it easy...



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