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Before There Was Welfare There Was Charity

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posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 





There will still be plenty of companies left after this great planned consolidation of power, money and influence.


Sorry thought companies were the blight of humanity and now you want to base the entire countries existence off them?

Seems to me that is how we got the current state of the union. Companies are evil!!!! No wait we need them to pay for our welfare!.


Only communists hate corporatism. Progressives understand that capitalism(and especially corporatism) plays a big role in how healthy the GDP is, but all the capitalist aspects of the economy need to be held under the auspices of the government, one that is not sold out to big money.

Then the corporations pay taxes just like everyone else. Why should they get a free ride when others do not? And yes taxes are necessary if we are to have a state and a government that runs the state. The alternative is anarchy.




What about reaganomics and thatcherism? Deregulate everything and leveraged buyouts? Then clinton rejected the glass-steagel act? Seems like multiple counts of stupidity from everyone that ultimately lead to everyone collecting dimes from the chinese creditors.


Reaganomics aka trickle down is working great for China, and regulation destroys jobs, and it destroys wealth, and that is a fact.

No amount of regulation has created a job with exception of a government job which has to be paid for by stealing from the people to fund the government.,


edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


You have the wrong priorities. Money is paper that without labor+resources amounts to squat. And I don't care if we are talking about fiat currencies or currencies backed by precious metals. Money is nothing without goodwill.

If the people refuse to work then the master bows to the slave.




posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 




Please, even in the most oppressive regimes there always seem to be a black markets. Yo don't need to have godlike powers to know that if there are humans there is trade.


Nice more theft since that is how most black markets get their product's.



How about, it is something that already happened and as someone said earlier in the thread there is no going back. You said technology and population growth creating larger unemployment. I'm agreeing. How can you tell someone to get a job and also admit that there aren't enough jobs?


Because no want's to or even try really with repeating the defeatist attitude? No thanks.




I have never said I did. I said that those who were there say otherwise and that I will take their word over yours on this matter.


That is rather sad quite a shame of letting political ideology getting in the way of one's common sense, and the common sense is we can not continue the status quo, because there is no future in that for this nation or the citizen.




Sure whatever. You said you didn't even care to look so how would you know?


Look at what? how Ameirca should be more like Europe? Seriously? That is laughable hell why do people think they nation was founded in the first place.




It's sad when you can't even see how bad you are flip flopping.


What is sad is someone who can't understand that people back then didn't have government to rely on to pay their bills.

Hence the younger generation has it better.




And those that came before you said the same thing about you.


Of course they can none of them were burdened with a 16 trillion dollar debt that can't be paid for and people screaming we need more welfare.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 




Only communists hate corporatism. Progressives understand that capitalism(and especially corporatism) plays a big role in how healthy the GDP is, but all the capitalist aspects of the economy need to be held under the auspices of the government, one that is not sold out to big money.


Just a theory that much money and power concentrated in to an oligarchy? Yeah good luck with that.




Then the corporations pay taxes just like everyone else. Why should they get a free ride when others do not? And yes taxes are necessary if we are to have a state and a government that runs the state. The alternative is anarchy.


No one get's a free ride how bout them apples?




You have the wrong priorities. Money is paper that without labor+resources amounts to squat. And I don't care if we are talking about fiat currencies or currencies backed by precious metals. Money is nothing without goodwill.


Nope the priority is less government off the people not more of it, and money is absolutely nothing that has the value of a roll of toilet paper.
edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by daskakik
 




You have just made the biggest argument for why welfare is needed.


Indeed. Technological progress bringing increased automatisation and growing productivity means that there will be less and less jobs available. But at the same time, those less people working would produce more than enough for all.

Ultimately, there is no way how to deal with this trend other than redistribution.



www.forbes.com...

Get ready for another massive wave of welfare leeches (sarcasm) in the next decade. The first to suffer will be taxi drivers and then the big rig drivers will be out of work. If i could automate everything possible at least 60% of all the people in this country would be out of work. And retraining them isn't going to help much, there are only so many skilled jobs to be had in this country.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by daskakik
 

Nice more theft since that is how most black markets get their product's.

The point was that people engage in trade no matter the circumstances so that there will always be companies in the US. No special powers needed to know this.


Because no want's to or even try really with repeating the defeatist attitude? No thanks.

Sure keep on loosing the good fight.



That is rather sad quite a shame of letting political ideology getting in the way of one's common sense, and the common sense is we can not continue the status quo, because there is no future in that for this nation or the citizen.

What does any of this have to do with what people before the implementation of federal welfare said of their situation?


Look at what? how Ameirca should be more like Europe? Seriously? That is laughable hell why do people think they nation was founded in the first place.

Laughable at best. It still doesn't change the fact that you refuse to look at any but the failures because it helps your argument.



What is sad is someone who can't understand that people back then didn't have government to rely on to pay their bills.

Back when, in the 70's? Stop lying. There was welfare back in the 70's.


Of course they can none of them were burdened with a 16 trillion dollar debt that can't be paid for and people screaming we need more welfare.

That sentence doesn't even make sense.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by neo96

A car,and a home and everything else during the 70's were a hell of a lot cheaper, look up how much a car or home cost back then compared to now.

Healthcare costs were cheaper,
Educations were cheaper
Clothing was cheaper.

The younger generation has no worries there is always someone else to pay their bills unlike the previous generations who came before.

edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


The private banks create minor inflation each year, which constantly piles up, cause they want market growth.

It is all about privatising the profits and socialising the loses. Some people are stupid enough to think of it as socialism.

I say ponzi scheme. First in and first out. Last in and you lose everything. A limited amount of money gets issued yet during each recession/depression THAT MONEY MAGICALLY DISAPPEARS! It is illegal to destroy currency but the inside traders, embezzlers, usurers create the bubbles that they pop to consolidate wealth and power.
edit on 5/29/2012 by EarthCitizen07 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 




The point was that people engage in trade no matter the circumstances so that there will always be companies in the US. No special powers needed to know this.


The point was theft after all, the end's justify the means.



Sure keep on loosing the good fight.


Losing nothing, and the good fight is to shrink the power and government and to continue to fight the creation of slave class who sole purpose in life is to fund the government.




What does any of this have to do with what people before the implementation of federal welfare said of their situation?


Rather sad people can't see the forest for the trees.




Laughable at best. It still doesn't change the fact that you refuse to look at any but the failures because it helps your argument.


That is laughable kind like the pot calling the kettle,.




Back when, in the 70's? Stop lying. There was welfare back in the 70's.


Personal snip aside to the extent of free homes,free educations,free healthcare,free cell phones and everything else that is know today?

Welfare existed back then but where less people were using them and the cost associated to them was extremely lower.




That sentence doesn't even make sense.


Sure it did.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Welfare is a ponzi scheme first in first out and leaving others to hold the bag. or the bills in all reality it is crony capitalism.

Money taken from others to pay for the in crowd.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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Charity played on the conscience. In many ways it helped us to give back while we were being helped. For instance, a local church or community center might ask the one in need if he could assist in mowing the property, or help for an hour or two in the food, clothing pantry, thus planting the seed of independence and confidence in the person who earned the food, clothing, cash ect.
Charity was, is, more personable, a one on one in many cases. One could quickly disearn who was in true need and who wasn't.
Charity exists from compassion, love and understanding in many, many cases.

Welfare is also a give and take but it takes from those who desperately need it and stretches it out to those who think they're entitled but really aren't.
Is a 43 year old woman, with no children, who works full time as a cashier entitled to a free cell phone and a couple of hundred dollars in food stamps? No she isn't. Esp when she has her own cell phone with unlimited minutes but decides to keep that information to herself. She also hides the fact that her mother and grand mother compensate her with a great deal of money when she helps to care for them.
Welfare allows leaches to suck off of it. In return, it owns the person. It also forces those who are self sustaining to contribute to it. Its an all consuming monster and it breeds all consuming little monsters.
Its unconstitutional and should be starved.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Welfare is a ponzi scheme first in first out and leaving others to hold the bag. or the bills in all reality it is crony capitalism.

Money taken from others to pay for the in crowd.


I don't see many wealthy people bragging about being on welfare.


Do you think the rockefellers, rothschilds, koch brothers and soros steal the neighbor's welfare check?


Sorry man, but I think your ignorance is a cheesy hollywood act.

edit on 5/29/2012 by EarthCitizen07 because: fixed emoticons



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by daskakik
 

The point was theft after all, the end's justify the means.

No because the example of black markets was just one example of people trading but you want to latch on to it then go ahead.


Losing nothing, and the good fight is to shrink the power and government and to continue to fight the creation of slave class who sole purpose in life is to fund the government.

And you are loosing and have been loosing this fight since the whiskey rebellion under president Washington. You keep on fighting though, just don't expect me to cheer for you.


Rather sad people can't see the forest for the trees.

Its a matter of "they said, you say" and I choose them because you were not there. How is that not the most logical choice?


That is laughable kind like the pot calling the kettle,.

Really because I like to take in all the facts not just the ones that help my argument.


Personal snip aside to the extent of free homes,free educations,free healthcare,free cell phones and everything else that is know today?

Welfare existed back then but where less people were using them and the cost associated to them was extremely lower.

But that isn't what you said. You said that kids today have it better while also saying that things in the 70's were better. You can't have it both ways. And saying that you are lying, when you in fact are, is not a personal snip, it's stating a fact.


Sure it did.


Of course they can none of them were burdened with a 16 trillion dollar debt that can't be paid for and people screaming we need more welfare."


Sorry, of course they can "say that you have it easier because they are not burdened". Some are still part of the workforce. They are as much burdened as you are and even you were not burdened by it for most of the existence of welfare.



edit on 29-5-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-5-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Personal snip aside I never seen a millionaire or billionaire made from welfare.

Hey keep trying those some day welfare might.
edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 





No because the example of black markets was just one example of people trading but you want to latch on to it then go ahead.


Theft is theft and there are many examples of it.




And you are loosing and have been loosing this fight since the whiskey rebellion under president Washington. You keep on fighting though, just don't expect me to cheer for you.


Matter of opinion and everyone has one but if people think i am going to stop roll over,and play dead?

Nope.




Its a matter of "they said, you say" and I choose them because you were not there. How is that not the most logical choice?


Someone want to tell me where the logic is of people taking more from a system that they pay into that system?

Where is the logic?




Really because I like to take in all the facts not just the ones that help my argument.


Yeah well the thread author has introduced a hell of a lot facts that have not been taken in to consideration.




But that isn't what you said. You said that kids today have it better while also saying that things in the 70's were better. You can't have it both ways. And saying that you are lying when you in fact are is not a personal snip, it's stating a fact.


Yeah it is the topic is "before there was welfare there was charity " which is the topic and posters are not the topic anyone trying to make them one is just using tried and true deflection.

They do have it better after all I am the one "loosing the welfare " argument so people can take more from others and give them more benefits and give them everything their little hearts desires.

Talk about someone trying to have it both ways.

So lie? Not even close.




Sorry, of course they can "say that you have it easier because they are not burdened". Some are still part of the workforce. They are as much burdened as you are.


Because the majority of those people who receive those government benefits. do not care where the money comes from the thought of national debt never enters in to their minds.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Personal snip aside I never seen a millionaire or billion made from welfare.

Hey keep trying those someone day welfare might.
edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)


Because the purpose of welfare(regardless of any potential or actual abuses) is to help those in need. Those that are physically or psychologically impaired for the long haul. Those that are temporarily disabled go elsewhere.

The government created the need for so many people to be on welfare via outsourcing and automation. Those that cannot make ends meet from long term unemployment after their benefits ran out.

We keep going round and round in circles because you put all the blame on government and virtually none on big business and the wealthy. You even praised reagan who created the conditions for consolidation of money and power. It is called "I would rather look at the trees(welfare tree especially) and pretend I can't see the forest" which reeks of dishonesty or at the very least of confusion.

The republicans who are free market whores(and the democrats to a lesser extent) have themselves to blame and themselves to answer to the millions of people they screwed!



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 




Because the purpose of welfare(regardless of any potential or actual abuses) is to help those in need. Those that are physically or psychologically impaired for the long haul. Those that are temporarily disabled go elsewhere.


No


1. a. Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being. b. Prosperity. 2. Welfare work. 3. a. Financial or other aid provided, especially by the government, to people in need. b. Corporate welfare.


What passes for welfare in this country is maintaining their existence it does nothing but keep them right where they are, and anyone collecting that compensation will never have it better than they are currently living




The government created the need for so many people to be on welfare via outsourcing and automation. Those that cannot make ends meet from long term unemployment after their benefits ran out.
.

Finally some common sense, but wait we need more government!!!!!




We keep going round and round in circles because you put all the blame on government and virtually none on big business and the wealthy.


Why do i need to blame others for what government done? Government done it Government get's it.




You even praised reagan who created the conditions for consolidation of money and power.


No I didn't the reason i said China is doing better is because private business or more specifically American business is investing there simply because it is cheaper to do so, and have been pushed out of here.

Make it cheaper to do business here and business would come back after all their bottom line is important to them they do not care where it is.




The republicans who are free market whores(and the democrats to a lesser extent) have themselves to blame and themselves to answer to the millions of people they screwed!


Nope those who believe in government knows best are to blame.
edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by daskakik
 

Theft is theft and there are many examples of it.

Sure but black market was only an example of trade even in the worst of situations. Not saying that it was OK but you have quite the knack for twisting things.


Matter of opinion and everyone has one but if people think i am going to stop roll over,and play dead?

How is the fact that President Washington led a group of men larger than any he had led during the revolution to impose a tax on the sale of whiskey just a matter of opinion and not proof that the government has been growing since day one? And, by the current size of it it, it would seem that you are in fact loosing.


Someone want to tell me where the logic is of people taking more from a system that they pay into that system?

Care to address the point instead of dodging. The point was that people who lived under the charity only US asked for help because charity wasn't working. Was it because of social engineering. Probably but then so is your position. My point was that they were there and asked for help. You were not so your opinion is just that.

You can bring up the point of how illogical it is to take more than what is put but that does not address my point.



Yeah well the thread author has introduced a hell of a lot facts that have not been taken in to consideration.

How do you know that I haven't taken them into account. I quoted his OP in my first post on this thread. Just because I don't agree with them or think that they no longer apply doesn't mean that I didn't look at them.


Yeah it is the topic is "before there was welfare there was charity " which is the topic and posters are not the topic anyone trying to make them one is just using tried and true deflection.

They do have it better after all I am the one "loosing the welfare " argument so people can take more from others and give them more benefits and give them everything their little hearts desires.

Talk about someone trying to have it both ways.

So lie? Not even close.

So is it better now or was it better in the 70's? You wrote a fair amount but you still haven't made it clear. I meant having it both ways in this thread.

Nice try deflecting but while the topic is "welfare vs. charity" you brought up the point of times being better during the 70's and also that kids today have it better. If it is off topic it is because of you.


Because the majority of those people who receive those government benefits. do not care where the money comes from the thought of national debt never enters in to their minds.


The generation before yours, which is probably still working doesn't care? So the generation before yours and those after yours are all leeches. Your generation is the only one that is really contributing to the system.
I know that isn't what your saying but if you had actually read my post you would see how your answer seems to reflect that thought.
edit on 29-5-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 




Sure but black market was only an example of trade even in the worst of situations. Not saying that it was OK but you have quite the knack for twisting things.


Anyone pushing welfare is twisting things




How is the fact that President Washington led a group of men larger than any he had led during the revolution to impose a tax on the sale of whiskey just a matter of opinion and not proof that the government has been growing since day one? And, by the current size of it it, it would seem that you are in fact loosing.


What does this have to do with welfare?




Care to address the point instead of dodging. The point was that people who lived under the charity only US asked for help because charity wasn't working. Was it because of social engineering. Probably but then so is your position. My point was that they were there and asked for help. You were not so your opinion is just that.


Never was asked if I wanted welfare.




How do you know that I haven't taken them into account. I quoted his OP in my first post on this thread. Just because I don't agree with them or think that they no longer apply doesn't mean that I didn't look at them.


Welfare does not work and has never worked and will never work.

Charity has been around long before government was even a thought in mans minds.




So is it better now or was it better in the 70's? You wrote a fair amount but you still haven't made it clear. I meant having it both ways in this thread. Nice try deflecting but while the topic is "welfare vs. charity" you brought up the point of times being better during the 70's and also that kids have it easier. If it is off topic it is because of you.


So keep making it a point not the one making it an issue.




The generation before yours, which is probably still working doesn't care? So the generation before yours and those after yours are all leeches. Your generation is the only one that is really contributing to the system.


Talk about twisting things not my words.


edit on 29-5-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by daskakik
 


Anyone pushing welfare is twisting things

Neo slides to the right to dodge the point.


What does this have to do with welfare?

It has to do with big government, which you claim to be fighting against, but that has been growing since the first president's first term.


Never was asked if I wanted welfare.

Because the question and decision were made before you were born by those who lived in a charity only US that had failed them.


Welfare does not work and has never worked and will never work.
Charity has been around long before government was even a thought in mans minds.

See above.


So keep making it a point not the one making it an issue.

So you have nothing. The least you could do is acknowledge the fact that you made a contradictory statement.


Talk about twisting things not my words.

I said that I knew it wasn't what you meant but that is what happens when you don't address the point but instead go off on a tangent.




edit on 29-5-2012 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 




Neo slides to the right to dodge the point.


The point is before there was welfare there was charity.




It has to do with big government, which you claim to be fighting against, but that has been growing since the first president's first term.


The welfare state is the big government state that others claim to be fighting agianst.




Because the question and decision were made before you were born by those who lived in a charity only US that had failed them.


The decision was made for us charity has never failed those people chose tyranny over an act of kindness just like that act if kindness where Warren Buffet gave half his fortune away in an act of charity and he did not give it too government.




I said that I knew it wasn't what you meant but that is what happens when you don't address the point but instead go off on a tangent.


the tangent is sticking to the topic being discussed which is before there was welfare there was charity and if you don't believe in that you denigrate others for having a different view.



posted on May, 29 2012 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 




Because the purpose of welfare(regardless of any potential or actual abuses) is to help those in need. Those that are physically or psychologically impaired for the long haul. Those that are temporarily disabled go elsewhere.


No


1. a. Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being. b. Prosperity. 2. Welfare work. 3. a. Financial or other aid provided, especially by the government, to people in need. b. Corporate welfare.


What passes for welfare in this country is maintaining their existence it does nothing but keep them right where they are, and anyone collecting that compensation will never have it better than they are currently living.


Well if the mwl is so low and jobs so few between, then yes many people will opt for unemployment and then welfare. Afterall if you can save on transportation costs, especially gas money, why not?





The government created the need for so many people to be on welfare via outsourcing and automation. Those that cannot make ends meet from long term unemployment after their benefits ran out.
.

Finally some common sense, but wait we need more government!!!!!


What we need is a better government. Smaller/bigger is almost irrellavant.





We keep going round and round in circles because you put all the blame on government and virtually none on big business and the wealthy.


Why do i need to blame others for what government done? Government done it Government get's it.


the people in government make the policies. government itself is not a human being.





You even praised reagan who created the conditions for consolidation of money and power.


No I didn't the reason i said China is doing better is because private business or more specifically American business is investing there simply because it is cheaper to do so, and have been pushed out of here.

Make it cheaper to do business here and business would come back after all their bottom line is important to them they do not care where it is.


america can never compete with china's third world standards on quality of life but with her first world military.

government does not have to sacrifice the american workers to get business back. they can impose their will on business though by making it non-affordable for imports. what i am saying is the hell with free trade and for americans to become patriatic. I realise it goes against your business is always right theory.
edit on 5/29/2012 by EarthCitizen07 because: fixed quotation tag



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