The Afghanistan Exit Will Humiliate The United States Worse Than Vietnam

reply to post by Plotus


First off, Thank you for serving. I mean that sincerly. I was a mere 17 back in 74 and I remember all this crap like it was yesterday. I happened to grow up down the street from Kent State too, so emotions were high from all levels. All this war stuff was going on after my dad was wiped out in the 68 Hough riots in Cleveland.

Strange days indeed.

I am still absoluty confused how or why we ever decided to fight in Afghanistan. I just don't get it.
Iraq? OK, we got duped,we were a little blood thirsty from 911 and said..."let's go kill some people"
Still wrong....but the American people were ok with that. Not ALL of US! (I was pissed)

Afgahnistan? WTF? Russia, New Soviet Union, the polititions in that country are laughing their ASSES OFF in backrooms.
THEY couldn't beat the Afghans and they have property on their boarder. WE F'd up in Nam, while Afghan was THEIR Nam.

I'm telling you, Russia is laughing their asses off how much money we're spending for what?
Lithium Mines?
Gold
Oil?
Opium?
www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org...
OK, All the above.

It's not a fricking war on terroism. It's to exploit the resources. Period.

We the people, are too far down the chain of command to appreciate what our govenment is doing on our behalf.

(SNEER)

And again, I thank you for Serving. Sincerly. And, I ALWAYS buy a Vet a beer and say thanks.

It pisses off the wives when it's at an AA meeting, but that's a different story.(I kid I kid)

Originally posted by Tazkven
reply to post by Germanicus

 

What's really humiliating is how you start an aggressive thread with your usual "them" and "they" anti-USA bashing tone, if your not trolling with your extreme anti-USA views its a fine line, and as the thread matures start back peddling and start saying "we" and "us" to Americans .

Now that has got to be humiliating

You should not be a member of ATS. You are only contributing to the annoying group that spread the word "Anti-American/Anti-USA.

This thread is not anti-American, it is quite true. Vietnam was humiliating for all involved, especially considering that the USA lost (oops, did i just say the word that no American likes to hear regarding Vietnam )

I see a lot of mentions of the Taliban on this thread and I want to remind everyone of something.

In the Eighties and the Nineties the TALIBAN WAS OUR ALLY!! The Taliban was one group of Mujahideen freedom fighters in Afghanistan.

We trained them, armed them, fed them, gave them money and shared our military tactics with them to help end their conflict with Russia in the Eighties. We built the Taliban into who they are today.

Do you remember In the closing credits to Rambo III the film is dedicated to "the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan." After the attacks of 9/11 this was changed to "the gallant people of Afghanistan."

I do not have an agenda for or against the Taliban, but I am wondering how many people (especially the younger ones) who attack the Taliban in this thread know this?

reply to post by sdocpublishing


Rambo was an awful series of movies and needed all the of the marketing help it could find.

Organizations change and just as the primary Americans involved in working with the Taliban are dead, the Taliban they worked with are old and probably dead also; now what exists are two groups with very little in common.

and its obvious that no one is even fighting the Taliban, the fighting stopped years ago and the war ended last year.

all what's being fought now are the ones that haven't accomplished their actual goals from starting that war in the first place.

but its a tricky war where they can't acknowledge the enemy...so it will take them some time.

most of the time they sit around plotting how to kidnap and abuse women and children and steal other peoples identities...they are a very unattractive rabble.

Originally posted by michaelbrux

and its obvious that no one is even fighting the Taliban, the fighting stopped years ago and the war ended last year.

Tell that to all the soldiers who are still over there. tell that to all the soldiers who have been injured fighting insurgents, tell that to the family members and friends of deceased soldiers who have perished at the hands of insurgents.

The fighting is far from over, and Afghanistan will be a loss.

reply to post by michaelbrux


The war with the Taliban is over?

I will be honest and say I have turned a blind eye to a lot of the news of war over the last two years. I cancelled my cable subscription and I don't follow print news. For a while I was way too deep in staying on top of things and I just got sick of it.

I did not know the war with the Taliban is done and we are in clean up mode.

That is good news.

On a side note, I was a child of the Eighties and I loved the Rambo Series. I thought they were a lot of fun.

reply to post by daaskapital


That is not a quote from any of my posts.

Originally posted by sdocpublishing
reply to post by daaskapital

 

That is not a quote from any of my posts.

I know. It doesn't say what you think it says

Don't worry mate, i deleted it as to not spur confusion. I edited it wrongly, as his post was a reply to your post.

Originally posted by jerico65
Yeah, just kicking off women and children. Those cowards!

We can agree that survival isn't pretty..

By the time Saigon fell, the war was being fought by the svn , not America.

The war was always mainly fought by the ARVN and they always took the large majority of the casualties.

About 100,000 were evacuated. Another 2000 babies were rescued, too. Should have been more

Oh, and that's not counting the 800,000+ boat people that the US took in.

The original number that the US evacuated runs to about 120 thousand which were mostly educated professionals who had ties to the US puppet regime in the south and could expect some level of reprisal for their actions, or inaction, during the war.

Congress passed the Refugee Act of 1980, reducing restrictions on entry, while the Vietnamese government established the Orderly Departure Program (ODP) under the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in response to world outcry—allowing people to leave Vietnam legally for family reunions and for humanitarian reasons. Additional American laws were passed allowing children of American servicemen and former political prisoners and their families to enter the United States. Another peak of Vietnamese immigrants to the US was in 1992, when many individuals in Vietnam's reeducation camps were released or sponsored by their families to come to the United States. Between 1981 and 2000, the United States accepted 531,310 Vietnamese political refugees and asylees.

en.wikipedia.org...

So we can say 650 000 which is not bad as internet guess work normally goes... Either way giving people a place to stay after you have destroyed their country is hardly beneficence and there were a additional couple million that fled Vietnam due to the mess the US made of it that may have appreciated the opportunity to come live in the US.

"Pretty decent"? Wow, your "I hate the US" feeling are really showing through, aren't they?

Yeah, the Communists were pretty decent to the South Vietnamese. All except the ones that were starved, tortured, executed, or put into "re-education camps"

While i can't and wont even try to defend Germanicus for the Vietnamese there existed no south and north so they one's that got tortured or executed got that treatment for the same reason the Dutch and French citizens turned on some of their own people. It is one thing to make a living under occupation but it is another thing to turn a profit and gain position by the exploitation and death of your own. As for re-education camps the US locked up it's Japanese citizens merely because they looked different enough during the war so it stands to reason that if there were a 'civil war' ( not that Vietnam had a civil war or anything) resulting from a foreign occupation in the US after the fact there would be some scores to settle and some people's loyalty to their country would have to be ascertained?

No, it's not.

The situation in Afghanistan is similar to Vietnam in some ways and not so in many other ways! If you wish to expound on how it's totally dissimilar i may be bothered to suggest where i see the similarities...


Of course the US armed forces is overstretched in the sense that it is failing to keep it's equipment in good repair while maintaining combat operations. Depo's in the US are certainly being filled with vehicles in need of repair and the backlog as i understand it is measured in years. In terms of it's capacity to be able to defend US vital national security i would not be at all dismissive of it's massive remaining capacity; if you get close enough to a wounded bear you're still going to regret it!

"Bullies"

How's your BS agenda working out so far?

Hehe! 'Bullies' is perhaps not the best term but countries have armed forced to at least scare off would be attackers or to intimidate weaker rivals from trying to gain the some strength by expansion... Germanicus seem to have an agenda but the Pentagon would not set a thousand or more armed or intelligence gathering camps all over the world as a defensive measure. To suggest such is to make clear that you believe that power can only be maintain by attempting total control which amounts to physical or at least pyschological attempts at world domination.

Yep, once again, you're pointing out what cowards the US Military is. Just war criminals that will be easily, easily overrun and butchered by the mighty Taliban.

Oh certain people&agencies expected something like the tet offensive but their data and fears were ignored as the goals seemed too ambitious and the strategic risks too high.... The problem with a cornered enemy is that they have to do desperate things to regain the initiative and so they did at whatever costs&risks they needed to assume. The problem with the argument Germanicus is making is that the VPA took years and years to develop the manpower and organisation to launch such coordinated attacks in South Vietnam and despite failing rather spectacularly at it's strategic aims the US government had had given them the victory before they attacked by repeatedly telling the American people and it's allies in Europe that the VPA/ NVA/vietcong were a spent force. As such the VPA 'won' ( which is the wrong word considering it's casualties) merely by being able to organize the attack and take unexpected large risks.


Continued

reply to post by daaskapital


Afghanistan will be just fine and their neighbors don't feel as strongly as you do about the idea it will be lost.

your comment is about par supporting the notion that the only people that are still fighting that war have as a primary tactic creating and growing the myth that the Taliban are a concern. or that their efforts are in Vain.

By the soldiers, do you mean like my relative that was working over there? He's on R&R in Rio right now and didn't have much bad to say about his experiences. I get all my military related intel from him and his estimation of the situation differs greatly from what people have to say in here.

The Taliban, as religious/spiritual movement, has legal requirements that govern their activities. Until any of you can fulfill those requirements, I wouldn't expect much cooperation from those guys in making your wet dream of an American defeat in Afghanistan come true.

They operate according to similar rules as Al Shabaab appears to operate according to...do you know why Al Shabaab left Mogadishu last August?...one sentence answer, please.

As a side reference i think soldiers, and certainly professional soldiers, would smile at the notion of being called a 'cowardly' fighter by an enemy, and just dismiss as uninformed civilians who call them such, as that normally indicates that the enemy is failing to engage you effectively while you are somehow killing him from very close or very far.

Wait, weren't the Taliban pretty much kicked in the nuts and knocked out of power by about 100 US SOF personnel? Yeah, think I remember something like that happening.

The problem, as i think Germanicus does understand, is that the US government have no public mandate for these wars and the only reason they can keep waging them is because Americans do not 'feel' that these events impact their lives directly. A 'tet' offensive on even afghan scales is not something i believe the Taliban could stage or would attempt too but if they could organize to a similar level as the VPA then and made the attempt the backlash in the US might very well be similar.

Except for the South Vietnamese that were murdered by the North. You keep forgetting that little detail.

If the US did not evacuate that 120 thousand there would have been many more murders and there also should have been many more. If citizens of a country serve a occupation force and their actions lead to the misery and death for their countrymen few civilized or uncivilized societies would take it lying down. The 'south' Vietnamese were as far as i know a artificial creation due to the partition of a country by imperial nations. The north could no more invade the south than Texans could invade occupied neighbouring American states. Vietnamese were killing their countrymen for the same host of reasons people in other countries kill their owns during times of strife and foreign intervention; have the IRA killed more British troops or Irish?

Because the Taliban did such a great job leading A-stan into the 4th Century.

And perhaps if the US and other nations had not intervened to 'create' the Taliban as a force in Afghanistan they would not have to fight them today or 'save' the Afghans from a 4th century existence by bombing them into a 2nd century one?

You make it sound like it was a paradise once the North took over. If it was such a groovy place, why did so many leave their country?

Vietnam most certainly did not turn out fine and Vietnam was certainly not in a great place when the French/Japanese ( and many other) imperialist were done with it; there is plenty of blame to go around and even if there is reason to excuse the effects of the land reformation attempted in the north it hardly helps the many tens of thousands who starved. As i said above many in the north fled simply because they had so deeply collaborated with the French/'Japanese colonial regimes that they feared reprisal. A large scale US propaganda campaign also helped to change many minds with it's communist scare mongering tactics and sadly these campaigns tends to be directed at the middle class ( Catholics especially) which is also the type of people that perhaps have the knowledge implement bad governmental policies without severe consequences for everyone. The fact is that when such strong foreign powers as the US sets their mind to undermining your country even their failed attempts are ruinous so what you end up working towards is not 'winning' but surviving as a independent national, if completely bankrupt and devastated and somewhat depopulated piece of real estate.

Uh, they are celebrating Tet, their lunar New Year. Not the offensive.

The impression i get from those who 'celebrate' such 'victories' is that they are mostly just thankful that they managed to survive it so and still have some semblance of independence. Their children's children might turn into chest thumping idiots since they have no idea of the price paid but those who were there will probably not be seen setting up parades or setting off fireworks.

What this post boils down to is the fact that i think you would both benefit by at least reading many more books on the subject so that you may thus eventually become at least as ignorant as i know myself to be on an event that consumed so many millions of lives. That being said i understand that it must appear at least somewhat ironic that i have decided that 'my' level of ignorance is one sufficiently in advance of others so as to enable my scolding of them; fire away and hopefully everyone learns some history in the process!

Stellar

reply to post by sdocpublishing


just expressing a personal opinion...i can't watch Sylvester Stallone as anything but Rocky Balboa and I'm not into personal stories of special operations guys...just doesn't jive with me...when war is the topic...I'd rather see the story told from the perspective of a General or King. my opinion...

but yeah...its quite obvious that the war has entered a phase that doesn't involve the use of troops and such...too many examples i could site to back up this assertion, but off the top of my head, I would point to no night raids and no battles involving NATO forces. Assad or Syria and the Yemenis are killing more people right now that the Americans ever did.

What's left of this war is the real enemy revealing its true goals...the REAL enemy isn't very brave and hasn't found a good opportunity to spring its brilliant, illuminated, divinely inspired trap just yet.

Originally posted by daaskapital

Originally posted by Tazkven
reply to post by Germanicus

 

What's really humiliating is how you start an aggressive thread with your usual "them" and "they" anti-USA bashing tone, if your not trolling with your extreme anti-USA views its a fine line, and as the thread matures start back peddling and start saying "we" and "us" to Americans .

Now that has got to be humiliating

You should not be a member of ATS. You are only contributing to the annoying group that spread the word "Anti-American/Anti-USA.

This thread is not anti-American, it is quite true. Vietnam was humiliating for all involved, especially considering that the USA lost (oops, did i just say the word that no American likes to hear regarding Vietnam

)

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can plainly see how the OP twists facts with his own personal opinions and what exactly he is doing, or trying to do. Its not just this thread but every post he constantly bashes the USA, personally I could not care less ... What he does or says is his right.

My point, which apparently you didn't get was his "playing both sides" so to speak, saying one thing then later totally contradicting that statement in later posts, which I further explained later in the thread ... The thing is he goes back and edits posts as the thread matures to change or totally delete what he said in the first place.

I know you think I am upset over the words you say like "humiliating" and "lost" , I find your pettiness mildly amusing as you have no idea, what I believe in or think ... you just assume you know and that makes it even more hilarious in a sad kind of way.

Believe it or not, here in the states its not all doom and gloom. The economy is great where I am and there are jobs everywhere, we bringing products back from China and building them here. I am sitting at work making 40 bucks an hour, killing time by reading your drivel and waiting for breakdowns on my lines. Once I am off we are going to enjoy our Memorial Day weekend on the lake, do some swimming, boating and fishing and living life and having fun. What you say or think is a crap that I do not care to give

Its funny tho, you telling me I don't belong here because of my "annoying" opinion by correctly assessing the OP ability to try and play both sides. You have shown you have zero reading comprehension then make a pitiful attempt to try and anger me

The exact same could be said of you ...

reply to post by daaskapital


I apologize for not "getting it", lol.

I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I make a great spoon.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by daaskapital

 

Afghanistan will be just fine and their neighbors don't feel as strongly as you do about the idea it will be lost.

It depends on whose perspective you are looking at the situation from.

Western - A loss. Reports from the UN and NATO state that the Taliban will most likely regain control of Afghanistan making the last 10 years a sacrifice in vain. Everything will be lost

Middle Eastern - A win. Expelling America and the allies from Afghanistan will be considered a victory for the Middle Eastern people, as there will be no more crimes committed by said country and Afghanistan will be considered "free."

( Remember, Afghanistan's neighbours are Middle Eastern )

your comment is about par supporting the notion that the only people that are still fighting that war have as a primary tactic creating and growing the myth that the Taliban are a concern. or that their efforts are in Vain.

The Taliban are a concern, and so is the fact that we are losing the war. The war is another Vietnam, another CIA war. It will be another failure where the USA/NATO will pull out. It is true, the USA couldn't defeat farmers in Vietnam, and they can't defeat farmers/goat herders in Afghanistan.

By the soldiers, do you mean like my relative that was working over there? He's on R&R in Rio right now and didn't have much bad to say about his experiences. I get all my military related intel from him and his estimation of the situation differs greatly from what people have to say in here.

Just because one's unit doesn't encounter many dangerous scenarios does not mean another did not. Soldiers are still dieing, so the fight is still continuing. Many soldiers also state that the war is worse today than what it was 10 years ago.

reply to post by Tazkven

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can plainly see how the OP twists facts with his own personal opinions and what exactly he is doing, or trying to do. Its not just this thread but every post he constantly bashes the USA, personally I could care less ... What he does or says is his right.

You seem to care. Im starting to think you are stalking me. And anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that I bash the US Government and its cheerleaders. So I would gladly bash you because you seem like a head cheerleader. You love Obama dont you?

I bash the US government because their foriegn policy affects me in Australia. Guys like you that cheerlead your Government affect me. I dont imagine you comprehend this though. You seem too egocentric to even assess the domestic problems that your country has.

What facts do I twist anyway?

Originally posted by Tazkven

Originally posted by daaskapital

Originally posted by Tazkven
reply to post by Germanicus

 

What's really humiliating is how you start an aggressive thread with your usual "them" and "they" anti-USA bashing tone, if your not trolling with your extreme anti-USA views its a fine line, and as the thread matures start back peddling and start saying "we" and "us" to Americans .

Now that has got to be humiliating

You should not be a member of ATS. You are only contributing to the annoying group that spread the word "Anti-American/Anti-USA.

This thread is not anti-American, it is quite true. Vietnam was humiliating for all involved, especially considering that the USA lost (oops, did i just say the word that no American likes to hear regarding Vietnam

)

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can plainly see how the OP twists facts with his own personal opinions and what exactly he is doing, or trying to do. Its not just this thread but every post he constantly bashes the USA, personally I could not care less ... What he does or says is his right.

My point, which apparently you didn't get was his "playing both sides" so to speak, saying one thing then later totally contradicting that statement in later posts, which I further explained later in the thread ... The thing is he goes back and edits posts as the thread matures to change or totally delete what he said in the first place.

I know you think I am upset over the words you say like "humiliating" and "lost"

, I find your pettiness mildly amusing as you have no idea, what I believe in or think ... you just assume you know and that makes it even more hilarious in a sad kind of way.

Believe it or not, here in the states its not all doom and gloom. The economy is great where I am and there are jobs everywhere, we bringing products back from China and building them here. I am sitting at work making 40 bucks an hour, killing time by reading your drivel and waiting for breakdowns on my lines. Once I am off we are going to enjoy our Memorial Day weekend on the lake, do some swimming, boating and fishing and living life and having fun. What you say or think is a crap that I do not care to give

Its funny tho, you telling me I don't belong here because of my "annoying" opinion by correctly assessing the OP ability to try and play both sides. You have shown you have zero reading comprehension then make a pitiful attempt to try and anger me

The exact same could be said of you ...

edit on 26-5-2012 by Tazkven because: (no reason given)

I didn't read past the third paragraph as your arrogance is overwhelming.

reply to post by daaskapital


you are right, its all about perspective...

personally, i don't give a # what NATO and/or the UN has to say or how they estimate the situation.

for the Taliban to do their thing...they must ride under the Black Standard; otherwise, they are apostates...according to the popular beliefs.

Where is their Black Standard is the question that should be answered...when answered, you will have understanding of the situation.

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by Tazkven

 

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can plainly see how the OP twists facts with his own personal opinions and what exactly he is doing, or trying to do. Its not just this thread but every post he constantly bashes the USA, personally I could care less ... What he does or says is his right.

You seem to care. Im starting to think you are stalking me. And anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that I bash the US Government and its cheerleaders. So I would gladly bash you because you seem like a head cheerleader. You love Obama dont you?

I bash the US government because their foriegn policy affects me in Australia. Guys like you that cheerlead your Government affect me. I dont imagine you comprehend this though. You seem too egocentric to even assess the domestic problems that your country has.

What facts do I twist anyway?

edit on 26-5-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)

Sorry if your confused by me posting in a thread and someone actually stalking you, I can see how the two can be confusing

I don't care who or what you bash, I just found it funny you can't figure out which side you want to be on. One second your waving the Chinese flag and the next your acting you actually have a vote for the next president. pick a side dude, sheesh.

I said you twisted facts with your own personal opinions, reading comprehension FTW ! Do you need me to write it in crayon for you ? Oh, and please point out one instance where I was cheerleading the Government anything in this thread please ... Its ok I'll wait while you look

You assume I love the government and the president, your obviously confused because I have not said or implyed anything of the sort. But I will say I love this land and its people, this is my home.

The whole world has domestic problems pal get your head out your rear end and open your eyes ... Sitting on a message board crying like a 13 year old drama queen, who cant figure which clique to fit into and playing both sides fixes the world exactly how ?

reply to post by daaskapital


I understand ... that little sting you felt wasn't my arrogance, that was the truth and sometimes it hurts