The Afghanistan Exit Will Humiliate The United States Worse Than Vietnam

Originally posted by RadiantMonkey
Around the world if you whisper "America" it is soon followed by laughter and grabbing of pitch forks. In my opinion "America the home of the free" (typing that makes me break out in laughter even :lol

Has already been humiliated long ago and is now on to be considered as a JOKE..

Until a disaster strikes. Then your pissant little country is crying like a girl at a Justin Bieber concert, whining for free food, medicine, shelter, you name it.

"Pweeze, help me! My mud hut came apart!!"

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
Um I think this is exactly what the OP is trying to point out... If America can't even win a war against a bunch of opium farmers than how are they supposed to win a war against a REAL country????
Most powerful military in the world, puh-lezze

Hmmm....probably because the fight in A-stan is different than a fight against Russia or China?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

I found this article interesting and relevant to the topic.

No Country for Young Men as Old Men Play for Time: The End in Afghanistan is Totally Predictable

“How do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?”

Originally posted by grubblesnert
Germie baby. I respect your exuberance and passion but, I must say that your extreme youth, and subsequent emotional immaturity, along with you yourself admitted recent elightenment of the U.S. exit in 1975 via a TV documentary. Plus, sighted it as your source material shows me that you lack a very key element in your data.

The thing you lack is no direct historical knowledge of this event and an other than American (an outsiders) perspective on this event. I lived through this at home and watched the 1975 Siagon evacuation on the evening news at the ripe young age of 15. The Vietnam War was a daily part of my life most of my childhood. The pivotal events of the day, peace protests, race riots, assasinations of The Kennedys and M L King, the nightly evening news report of the war and the end of the broadcast body count report (daily tally of US servicemen kill) was a integral part of my childhood. My Cousin served and saw some pretty hairy combat. (he later commited suicide due to his experiences) Later I heard the war stories and anecdotes from my older friends and co-workers. I recently lost a dear friend to the cronic effects of agent orange exposure. Now I'm making younger friends and aquaintances at my job (Fire Rescue) with the latest generation of American Veterans from Iraq and Afganistan. These kids ( around your age I'd guess) are bright, caring, professional paramedics and firefighters and tell the same war stories and anecdotes as my older Vietnam Vet friends. (they dont like the politics of their conflict any less than their older Veitnam contemporaries)

The point of my little rant is this. You really dont know the heart and soul of an American or what humiliation they may or may not feel over either Vietnam or our departure from Afganistan unless you are one.
No more than I can be expected to react to an Australian historical or military decission the same as a native Australian.
Rest assured I am well elightented on all aspects of the nefarious goings on of the "conflict in Southeast Asia" from Tonkin through to the Embassy evacutation, including Pol Pot,(sp), the killing fields, the "ground zero" philosophy, the boat people tragedies and plight of the refugees who made it to the U.S. and had to start life completely over again.
the Veitnam War is a deep and elaborate event and can not be learned by viewing a documentary or two.
End rant
My personal opinon on our recent foray:
I think we should have been in and out of Afganistan in 1 year or less. NOT 10 plus years! No nation building, no occupation
Iraq? That invasion was unnecessary and no one has been told the real reason for our military action there.

PS I still like you even though you are sorta talking out of your arse on this one

Peace!

edit on 25-5-2012 by grubblesnert because: spellin'

edit on 25-5-2012 by grubblesnert because: same

Hey man,

Yeah,I dont mean offense to the soliers. I guess Im trying to give it to the US Government and show that they are not invincible even though that is the image presented . I know a guy that was in Vietnam and we have never discussed specifics but we have enough for me to know it still affects him. And I agree with what you are saying about context. How will people in the future be abl to understand Libya with anecdotal evidence compared to us that got to see it transpire in front of us.

I guess I am also trying to make the point that the Tet Offensive was more significant than most in the west give it credit for.

And I really meant humiliation on the International Stage for America as a nation. I feel sorry for the soldiers that fought in that war. Even those CIA guys and soldiers leaving in helicopters couldnt do much else. It looks sickening watching the last Americans leave but they couldnt take all of the South Vietnemese with them. The US Government what I blame.

*****,***. ***** ******** ** ****!

BULL!!!

The problem in the Middle East is that we don't have leaders that REFUSE to accept defeat. Our Fighting Men and Women are being held back so that we don't appear to be so strong so everyone will "like us". There is only one thing they understand in Afghanistan, Iraq, or any of those "countries", in the Middle East, brutal, unrestrained, unforgiving, FORCE. Force that far exceeds their brutality and overwhelming superiority that strike fear in those that oppose us. We MUST stop fighting these "good guy - friendly" wars allowing our objectives to be dictated by what others think. When The United States of America goes to war our goal MUST be to WIN. I've seen so many of these half-assed attempts to appease our critics in some piss-ant Third World country, I just want to throw up. And, if this mamby-pamby crap way of fighting a war wasn't enought, it's getting some of our best and brightest people KILLED. We need leaders who will "Fight to Win", we need warriors leading our military, not politicians, and we need our men and women in the military to have the best and most lethal weapons and equipment that we can furnish them with. Our military can do the job IF, you untie their hands and let them FIGHT.

reply to post by pistolerooo


I vote we bring all the troops home from every foreign base and send drones overseas whenever there is a problem to be dealt with. The money saved will balance the budget. Some defense contractors will lose their gravy train, but there is a downside to everything.

reply to post by groingrinder


If those drones were equipped with Nukes....I'd be alright with that.

reply to post by Germanicus


There are a lot of angles tohe involvment in Afghanistan, but the USA has been humiliated in Afghanistan. Before I go any further I'm a combat veteran and a seasoned contractor in overseas work combat zones. Our campaigns although being lead by military, its tactics are dictated by politictians. That should be enough to give anyone a clear picture of why things are ,,the way they are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA has earned the reputation of big talk, big money and little action, although we are quite capable of wipping most any armed force that we would have to engage. In fact the intent is to NOT resolve the tensions in Afghanistan or Iraq but to feed the continous conflicts internal to both countries, Why polictical and financal greed. It is upon the American voting public to make our decisions makers effect policy that will change the direction of country geographically and financally. It is time to end foreign aggression, there is no plan for Iraq or Afghanistan to invade the USA militarly but those country's interests are represented in the US based on their radical Islamic factions operating within our borders. There is more than enough work for our military securing our nation's borders and securing the safety and freedom of our own country. We are way past our time overseas and its time to bring our combat troops and our foreign aid home to Americans.

Originally posted by DOADOA
if you can only articulate your point with tact some readers might not take offense to what you're saying.

anyhow, on topic. why would we be humiliated? we lost our collective ego after vietnam. the worlds opinion of us couldn't be any lower according to some of threads on this site.

needless to say, we're still the country with the most powerful military in existence. there isn't a country out there who will stand up to us and not be reduced to rubble in an all out war.

Lol, if your country went into war you'd end up having to ration your McDonald's .

Originally posted by chrismarco
Humiliation? I don't think humiliation could be even factored in...we went in under the impression that we were looking for WMD's...we ended up trying to decocratize a country who could have cared less at the time. I don't think anybody other than perhaps certain military officials give's a hoot that we are embarassed or humiliated in some way. What I do think people feel is snookered or even more distrustful around the government these days regardless if Afghanistan falls apart or prospers. Certain agendas have been reached with respect to certain companies/private security firms/construction/contractors/weapons manufacturers making their money.

You may think that we as Americans are humilitated but it's a constant frustration knowing that we extended ourselves for the good of certain people and not at all in the name of democracy so regardless what happens the same level of frustration is a constant but humiliation will not be one of them.

edit on 25-5-2012 by chrismarco because: (no reason given)

Americans aren't humiliated because they have been indoctrinated to not feel that way. The USA has failed on many occasions - Vietnam, Iraq, and now, are currently failing in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is the modern Vietnam, another CIA war, another failure for the USA.

Originally posted by Germanicus
And I mean your Government is humiliated and they look weak to other nations. This is important because faith in the US military equals faith in US debt. Once the US military starts to look weak the country looks weak.

The US military has always been weak.It's why they can't win a war by themselves, and must get other allied countries to do all the dirty work. So many times has the US claimed victory for their allies operations.

Pisses me off sometimes

Originally posted by Swamper

Originally posted by DOADOA
if you can only articulate your point with tact some readers might not take offense to what you're saying.

anyhow, on topic. why would we be humiliated? we lost our collective ego after vietnam. the worlds opinion of us couldn't be any lower according to some of threads on this site.

needless to say, we're still the country with the most powerful military in existence. there isn't a country out there who will stand up to us and not be reduced to rubble in an all out war.

Lol, if your country went into war you'd end up having to ration your McDonald's .

If ATS had a comment of the year award, this would be it!!!

You want to know what's humiliating? The United States is 25th in the world in math scores. We have no industry, the largest prison population in the world (mostly due to a plant), corrupt politians envoking "laws" that restrict Americans from being able to even own a farm without the Feds busting down the door because they might be selling raw milk, 20%+ unemployment throughout the entire country, exploding cancer and autism rates, a defunct space program, a goon squad in the TSA that even Hitler would be proud of, 16 trillion dollars in debt, and a blood thirsty drug cartel on our border beheading people... and the OP wants to wage another 10 years of war for absolutely no reason other than to make the United States look good? Fact check, we're already the joke of the world. Leaving Afghanistan to the CIA created Al Qauda is going to make just as much difference as brainlessly waving your Chinese made American flag and pretending to be patriotic.

Hi Pavil, it's been a few years...

Originally posted by pavil
I know it sounds cold, but we really didn't give a rats #@#@ when the Taliban were in power doing their despot thing. It's not like we were going to overthrow them for being brutal to their own countryman. It's only when they stepped over the line with harboring Bin Laden that we said enough's enough.

They offered to exchange OBL , they wanted the country rather than OBL ( they did not like him much either as far as i understand) , but the US for reasons we wont go into here decided to invade. SH in Iraq was as always before also willing to play ball but this time the US wanted to invade Iraq too so they did. To suggest that the US government invades countries because it lacks sufficient means to compel most do their bidding is not in my opinion accurate; the US invades countries when it suits 'it's' 'national security interests' ( whatever that means) to do so.

As long as they don't bother us, we shouldn't bother them. We tried to make it work...... just wasn't in the cards. First the UK, then USSR then US. Maybe China will be stupid and think they can do it.

The problem with occupations is that unless you are willing to do your violence with knives&individual weapons while flooding the country with troops you really need to go in their with deep pockets and just buy out the resistance by one way or another. The US could never afford to go around slitting throats to make the point but believed that bombing, like vietnam, could do it when such methods breeds as much contempt as fear. While they bombed wedding parties&funerals and market places they proceeded to try bribe afghans they brought into the country instead of finding the resistance and buying them out by one method or the next. There was an classical imperial age where countries could do the things effective classical imperialism demanded but these days it's much more complex and the US as a country and people are not politically sophisticated or brutal enough to be effective occupiers.

And then they choose Afghanstan where sophisticated&brutal imperialist have failed many times!

Oh well!

Stellar

reply to post by Jagermeister


Totally agreed. eople don`t care in terms of humiliation, people think in terms of having a job and feeding their family. Save the useless pathos.

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by grubblesnert
Germie baby. I respect your exuberance and passion but, I must say that your extreme youth, and subsequent emotional immaturity, along with you yourself admitted recent elightenment of the U.S. exit in 1975 via a TV documentary. Plus, sighted it as your source material shows me that you lack a very key element in your data.

The thing you lack is no direct historical knowledge of this event and an other than American (an outsiders) perspective on this event. I lived through this at home and watched the 1975 Siagon evacuation on the evening news at the ripe young age of 15. The Vietnam War was a daily part of my life most of my childhood. The pivotal events of the day, peace protests, race riots, assasinations of The Kennedys and M L King, the nightly evening news report of the war and the end of the broadcast body count report (daily tally of US servicemen kill) was a integral part of my childhood. My Cousin served and saw some pretty hairy combat. (he later commited suicide due to his experiences) Later I heard the war stories and anecdotes from my older friends and co-workers. I recently lost a dear friend to the cronic effects of agent orange exposure. Now I'm making younger friends and aquaintances at my job (Fire Rescue) with the latest generation of American Veterans from Iraq and Afganistan. These kids ( around your age I'd guess) are bright, caring, professional paramedics and firefighters and tell the same war stories and anecdotes as my older Vietnam Vet friends. (they dont like the politics of their conflict any less than their older Veitnam contemporaries)

The point of my little rant is this. You really dont know the heart and soul of an American or what humiliation they may or may not feel over either Vietnam or our departure from Afganistan unless you are one.
No more than I can be expected to react to an Australian historical or military decission the same as a native Australian.
Rest assured I am well elightented on all aspects of the nefarious goings on of the "conflict in Southeast Asia" from Tonkin through to the Embassy evacutation, including Pol Pot,(sp), the killing fields, the "ground zero" philosophy, the boat people tragedies and plight of the refugees who made it to the U.S. and had to start life completely over again.
the Veitnam War is a deep and elaborate event and can not be learned by viewing a documentary or two.
End rant
My personal opinon on our recent foray:
I think we should have been in and out of Afganistan in 1 year or less. NOT 10 plus years! No nation building, no occupation
Iraq? That invasion was unnecessary and no one has been told the real reason for our military action there.

PS I still like you even though you are sorta talking out of your arse on this one

Peace!

edit on 25-5-2012 by grubblesnert because: spellin'

edit on 25-5-2012 by grubblesnert because: same

Hey man,

Yeah,I dont mean offense to the soliers. I guess Im trying to give it to the US Government and show that they are not invincible even though that is the image presented . I know a guy that was in Vietnam and we have never discussed specifics but we have enough for me to know it still affects him. And I agree with what you are saying about context. How will people in the future be abl to understand Libya with anecdotal evidence compared to us that got to see it transpire in front of us.

I guess I am also trying to make the point that the Tet Offensive was more significant than most in the west give it credit for.

And I really meant humiliation on the International Stage for America as a nation. I feel sorry for the soldiers that fought in that war. Even those CIA guys and soldiers leaving in helicopters couldnt do much else. It looks sickening watching the last Americans leave but they couldnt take all of the South Vietnemese with them. The US Government what I blame.

*****,***. ***** ******** ** ****!

If you want to "give it to the US Government and show that they are not invincible" zero in and take aim and FIRE Away! on the Military Industrial Complex, AKA the corporations, Generals, and politicians responsible for every war, military action and failed ferien policy we, collectively as Americans have to enduretake aim
I'll provide "covering fire for you!

Veitnam made a few people rich, but not anyone you or I would know.
Iraq,Afganistan and, as you, correctly and justifiably point out Libya are furthure examples of the evil that men do in the persuit of power, money and eventual world domination (oh, just had a flashback to our plans *inside joke for those reading along)

Keep fighting the good fight my friend! you can continue to expect emotional and patriotic responses in opposition to hot button topic like Vietnam (and 9-11 for that matter)
To wrap it up *****,***. ***** ******** ** ****! back ya!:

It's pretty clear that you were not even around during the Vietnam time frame, thus your facts...... Not exactly accurate, in fact quite inaccurate. I AM a VET, a Vietnam Vet, and there is vastly more to the story than what you have here. Which by the way was an expose certainly done by a North Vietnamese/Communist sympathizer. I have these exact pictures on another forum. We overwhelmed the VC at every battle in conclusion, and they only advanced when we retreated in 'stand-downs' which were Tactical in nature. I could go on, but you seem to have 'all the facts'. It was much more about Westmoreland, Nixon and Johnson and political corruptions that anything.and the US's distaste of the war. It was more about the war machine, politics, and corruption. To base your whole premise on 'News clips' is expected, though they are purely from a liberal agenda's claims. There were two schools of thought about the "Police Action' we participated in. Afghanistan is such that the cost per kill is far and above the value of liberating them. They are also of a culture that is of a Tribal nature, which would take generations to influence with the precepts of democracy. It's just not how their wired. And the terrain is also an impediment to any waring aggressors. It does not lend itself well to the flow of supplies for warfare. It is also a religion with which you must contend. Of course we could 'Win' a war there, simply bomb Everything into submission, total carpet bombing, kill everyone, but that would not play well on the world stage, nor with the US's pocketbook. You can't use a 'smart bomb' to merely liquidate 10-12 enemy, it is in no way cost effective So in a sense it is an un-winnable war due to logistics (Mountains). that is if you wish to have any survivors with which to install this democracy. And again, the world stage. The Russians already dealt with that conflict and were inclined to ultimately stand down and abandon their ambitions there, largely for financial considerations and the ultimate value of having it as a sattellite republic of the USSR.

Knee-jerk media is what you have, from only one side of the true history of either conflict. Wars always become too costly to continue, thus they decline and end in favor of saber rattling and treaties. Ultimately war is unsustainable, even by the wealthiest countries, and arms dealers are the only ones who prosper. One day wars will only be fought by cyber means, as the cost of resources becomes far too costly and contamination from previous wars bears no fruit or habitable spoils. And avoiding loosing a battle will be as simple as shutting down the internet. Now how much would that destroy some of your lives...lol.... to actually go outdoors and perform some positive act beyond finger exercise......lol.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I know, it's nit-picking and I mean no offense by it, but that sounds like people who say the US won WW2.

That sounds like most Americans on ATS...

It will be no more humiliating than pulling off of a construction site that has failed to stay within budget, and 'stop work' decisions by financial institutions.

Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Germanicus

 

It is technically not a American occupation, but rather a NATO one. One which seems to crumbling. Yes, the US does have the majority of forces there but there are others who are also sacrificing their sons and daughters as well.

I know, it's nit-picking and I mean no offense by it, but that sounds like people who say the US won WW2. We didn't...it was a team effort that everyone was committed to seeing through till the end. An unconditional surrender by the Axis.

And the Taliban have already shown themselves to be not quite as forgiving as the Vietnamese communists in the ‘70’s.

Yeah,I think the Taliban will slaughter all those considered to have conspired with the enemy. The US almost has an obligation to protect these people now that they have involved themselves.

Hmmm, we seen how well that worked with the Montagnard people who helped in Vietnam. Our Government at the time threw them under the bus.

The US government also tried to throw others under the bus who went against their decisions. Look up Barry petersen. He was an Australian Army officer who was hired by the CIA to train a Montagnard tribe in Vietnam. Over time, he had created a feared force of over 1000 Montagnards, and was revered as a Demi-God. Furthermore, he was classed as a threat by the CIA as he had "gone native."

Needless to say, Petersen denied the CIA's demand to train the Montagnard as assassins under what was the precursor to Operation Phoenix. It is believed by himself and other sources (primary and secondary) that he was targeted for assassination by the CIA due to his "native" or wild behaviour. He eventually escaped the grasp of the CIA by fleeing Vietnam.