Very true, Liberation from USA will be sweet victory for the Afghani`s, will it happen is another question?
Last I heard USA were leaving hundreds there for good.
The Afghanistan Exit Will Humiliate The United States Worse Than Vietnam, page 2
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:14 PM by TDawgRex
Originally posted by Germanicus
Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Germanicus
It is technically not a American occupation, but rather a NATO one. One which seems to crumbling. Yes, the US does have the majority of forces there but there are others who are also sacrificing their sons and daughters as well.
I know, it's nit-picking and I mean no offense by it, but that sounds like people who say the US won WW2. We didn't...it was a team effort that everyone was committed to seeing through till the end. An unconditional surrender by the Axis.
And the Taliban have already shown themselves to be not quite as forgiving as the Vietnamese communists in the ‘70’s.
Yeah,I think the Taliban will slaughter all those considered to have conspired with the enemy. The US almost has an obligation to protect these people now that they have involved themselves.
Hmmm, we seen how well that worked with the Montagnard people who helped in Vietnam. Our Government at the time threw them under the bus.
I fear it will be no different this time around.
Personally, I am of the belief that you help those who help you. But I'm not in charge am I?
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:15 PM by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
the mysterious piece is called legitimacy...the Taliban have none...they are nothing but a bunch of people that learned a secret they wish they could forget but they can't unsee it.
all they are capable of are crimes against humanity, all their supporters can hope for is being associated with a criminal gang that does little more than murder people that don't share their ideology.
have fun with your new friends... religious fanatics and mercenaries that can never return to their countries of origin.
Afghanistan is nothing like Vietnam and the idea that it is proves delusion.
the mysterious piece is called legitimacy...the Taliban have none...they are nothing but a bunch of people that learned a secret they wish they could forget but they can't unsee it.
all they are capable of are crimes against humanity, all their supporters can hope for is being associated with a criminal gang that does little more than murder people that don't share their ideology.
have fun with your new friends... religious fanatics and mercenaries that can never return to their countries of origin.
Afghanistan is nothing like Vietnam and the idea that it is proves delusion.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:27 PM by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
the US economy is larger than China and Australia combined...what position are you in to call it weak?
but the true categories are even more ridiculously one sided.
the US economy is larger than China and Australia combined...what position are you in to call it weak?
but the true categories are even more ridiculously one sided.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:31 PM by jonnywhite
reply to post by Germanicus
Well the question is whether ultimate victory was ever worth it.
We're not time travelers and do not know the future. We cannot say we're better off because we cannot point to alternate time-lines. Nor are we mind readers. Much of the information in this world that matters is in people's heads. We cannot know all the information in the world. We can passionately support the cause to fight tyranny, but at the end of the day, when the money runs out, the machines and the tanks and generals will go home, whether we win or not.
We can say we've fought tyrrany, but we cannot say we've eliminated it.
That's the best we can do, given our circumstances and limited resources.
Well the question is whether ultimate victory was ever worth it.
We're not time travelers and do not know the future. We cannot say we're better off because we cannot point to alternate time-lines. Nor are we mind readers. Much of the information in this world that matters is in people's heads. We cannot know all the information in the world. We can passionately support the cause to fight tyranny, but at the end of the day, when the money runs out, the machines and the tanks and generals will go home, whether we win or not.
We can say we've fought tyrrany, but we cannot say we've eliminated it.
That's the best we can do, given our circumstances and limited resources.
edit on 25-5-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:32 PM by Germanicus
Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
the US economy is larger than China and Australia combined...what position are you in to call it weak?
but the true categories are even more ridiculously one sided.
California has a larger economy than Australia. We do punch above our wieght for our population though. And have a strong economy and bright furure in the East.
China is predicted to overtake the US economy within just a few years.
And I know the US economy is large. It is in trouble though. The future looks bleak.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:35 PM by Germanicus
Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by Germanicus
Well the question is whether victory was ever worth it.
I doubt it. not when the Afghanistan people throw riots and demand the US troops leave. The whole urinating on dead bodies,killing children and burning Holy Books isnt winning hearts and minds.
I think America should cut its loses and help relocate any refugees in an orderly fashion. To leave the way they left from Vietnam would not look good.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:38 PM by Germanicus
Originally posted by TDawgRex
Originally posted by Germanicus
Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by Germanicus
It is technically not a American occupation, but rather a NATO one. One which seems to crumbling. Yes, the US does have the majority of forces there but there are others who are also sacrificing their sons and daughters as well.
I know, it's nit-picking and I mean no offense by it, but that sounds like people who say the US won WW2. We didn't...it was a team effort that everyone was committed to seeing through till the end. An unconditional surrender by the Axis.
And the Taliban have already shown themselves to be not quite as forgiving as the Vietnamese communists in the ‘70’s.
Yeah,I think the Taliban will slaughter all those considered to have conspired with the enemy. The US almost has an obligation to protect these people now that they have involved themselves.
Hmmm, we seen how well that worked with the Montagnard people who helped in Vietnam. Our Government at the time threw them under the bus.
I fear it will be no different this time around.
Personally, I am of the belief that you help those who help you. But I'm not in charge am I?
Its funny when you think about America helping Afghanistan fight off the Russians. you would think that Afghanistan people would be more pro-US. I guess they just dont like foriegn armies on their land.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 12:52 PM by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
good for Australia...no sane person would want it to be any different than what you described.
like I stated....the real categories that measure economic health are quite different from the ones that are shown on Wiki.
good for Australia...no sane person would want it to be any different than what you described.
like I stated....the real categories that measure economic health are quite different from the ones that are shown on Wiki.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:04 PM by pavil
reply to post by Germanicus
It's hard to nation build when you have a place like Afghanistan where they don't really have, nor want, a central government. The main similarity between Vietnam and Afghanistan is that the "locals" aren't willing to fight for their own country more than their opponents, ie people there aren't willing to spill their own blood for the Karzhi Government. At least in Iraq, they ended up taking responsibility for their own country. I give Karzhi about 12 hours after the last NATO troops leave before he flees or is strung up and quartered by his own people.
Afghanistan will always be a place where the people there will not want a strong government. Too many guns, too many tribes, too many warlords and too much drug money for it to be a real country.
Till Afghans want to take control of their own destiny, they are doomed to live in a failed State.
The really bad thing is that Afghanistan has regressed since the late 60's early 70's. It wasn't always such a backwards and primitive place. 30+ years of conflict will do that to you.
It's hard to nation build when you have a place like Afghanistan where they don't really have, nor want, a central government. The main similarity between Vietnam and Afghanistan is that the "locals" aren't willing to fight for their own country more than their opponents, ie people there aren't willing to spill their own blood for the Karzhi Government. At least in Iraq, they ended up taking responsibility for their own country. I give Karzhi about 12 hours after the last NATO troops leave before he flees or is strung up and quartered by his own people.
Afghanistan will always be a place where the people there will not want a strong government. Too many guns, too many tribes, too many warlords and too much drug money for it to be a real country.
Till Afghans want to take control of their own destiny, they are doomed to live in a failed State.
The really bad thing is that Afghanistan has regressed since the late 60's early 70's. It wasn't always such a backwards and primitive place. 30+ years of conflict will do that to you.
edit on 25-5-2012 by pavil because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:13 PM by Germanicus
Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
good for Australia...no sane person would want it to be any different than what you described.
like I stated....the real categories that measure economic health are quite different from the ones that are shown on Wiki.
National debt is the biggest problem that the US faces. That is no fantasy. If the military loses respect internationally it will affect confidence in your economy. Misadventure is often the straw that breaks an Empires back. If it doesnt happen in Aghanistan it will happen at some stage. America is not invincible. Who would have ever imagined that a bunch of mostly farmers and peasents could defeat them? I know funding was an issue but funding is just as much of an issue right now. Funding is the big issue really. China is increasing military spending each year and they are efficient. There are amy examples throughout history on a superiour nation being defeated by a seemingly inferior nation. The United States is losing respect in its military ability. China and Russia plus Iran,North Korea,Venezuela,Argentina,Cuba,Syria,Zimbabwe,Pakistan....the other BRICS. There are many nations that America will have to deal with if WW3 breaks out. Its not unthinkable to imagine them and their bankrupt allies being defeated. There are many nations that are openly against the US. There are even more against them unofficially. As they loss power,they will lose friends. Nations are beginning to see this. Obama and the United States Government are losing the respect of the world. Obama didnt even get any respect in South America recently. The days of America dominating international politics is over. There seems to be no solutions for America. Only doom. The only way out is WW3.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:20 PM by Germanicus
reply to post by pavil
Yeah,I think that is why the Taliban suits many of the Afghanistan people. I remember being shocked when I heard they were negotiating with the Taliban. After what they said about how they treat young girls and the Public Hangings in soccer fields. I guess its hard to comprehend life in a place like that for us. And hard for us to judge and fix. Like you said,it seems it would be better if they fixed it themselves. I know Vietnam is far from perfect,but it far from the doom that everyone predicted for it under the Peoples Army Of Vietnam. It sounds terrible but it seems like its none of our business.
Afghanistan will always be a place where the people there will not want a strong government. Too many guns, too many tribes, too many warlords and too much drug money for it to be a real country.
Yeah,I think that is why the Taliban suits many of the Afghanistan people. I remember being shocked when I heard they were negotiating with the Taliban. After what they said about how they treat young girls and the Public Hangings in soccer fields. I guess its hard to comprehend life in a place like that for us. And hard for us to judge and fix. Like you said,it seems it would be better if they fixed it themselves. I know Vietnam is far from perfect,but it far from the doom that everyone predicted for it under the Peoples Army Of Vietnam. It sounds terrible but it seems like its none of our business.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:22 PM by michaelbrux
Originally posted by Germanicus
Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Germanicus
good for Australia...no sane person would want it to be any different than what you described.
like I stated....the real categories that measure economic health are quite different from the ones that are shown on Wiki.
National debt is the biggest problem that the US faces. That is no fantasy. If the military loses respect internationally it will affect confidence in your economy. Misadventure is often the straw that breaks an Empires back. If it doesnt happen in Aghanistan it will happen at some stage. America is not invincible. Who would have ever imagined that a bunch of mostly farmers and peasents could defeat them? I know funding was an issue but funding is just as much of an issue right now. Funding is the big issue really. China is increasing military spending each year and they are efficient. There are amy examples throughout history on a superiour nation being defeated by a seemingly inferior nation. The United States is losing respect in its military ability. China and Russia plus Iran,North Korea,Venezuela,Argentina,Cuba,Syria,Zimbabwe,Pakistan....the other BRICS. There are many nations that America will have to deal with if WW3 breaks out. Its not unthinkable to imagine them and their bankrupt allies being defeated. There are many nations that are openly against the US. There are even more against them unofficially. As they loss power,they will lose friends. Nations are beginning to see this. Obama and the United States Government are losing the respect of the world. Obama didnt even get any respect in South America recently. The days of America dominating international politics is over. There seems to be no solutions for America. Only doom. The only way out is WW3.
Debt is only a problem when you don't have much time. America has infinite amount of Time. the military will never lose respect and America is Indestructible. If you don't think so...Then Prove It.
WW3 isn't on the table...the whole Planet is Shook by what America has become.
the days of America dominating have only just begun.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:23 PM by tom.farnhill
reply to post by Germanicus
Afghanistan has been fighting off invaders to their country for over 500 years they have a lot of practise repelling unwanted visitors , and don't forget that it was the cia that taught them how to make the roadside bombs whilst they were fighting off the russians.
there is nothing cut and dried about this war .
a lot of people have lost their lives over this war and the only people that have come out of this just fine are the corporate bodies that have made a fortune .
this war will not be over until the corporate bodies decide that they have made as much profit as they can .
Afghanistan has been fighting off invaders to their country for over 500 years they have a lot of practise repelling unwanted visitors , and don't forget that it was the cia that taught them how to make the roadside bombs whilst they were fighting off the russians.
there is nothing cut and dried about this war .
a lot of people have lost their lives over this war and the only people that have come out of this just fine are the corporate bodies that have made a fortune .
this war will not be over until the corporate bodies decide that they have made as much profit as they can .
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:33 PM by pavil
reply to post by Germanicus
As long as they don't pose a threat to us, Afghanistan can wallow in whatever misery it decides. It would have been nice if they actually took up democratic ideals and freedoms ect, but that ain't happening. I do feel bad for Afghan women when the change happens when Nato leaves. Once upon a time, Afghan women held a high place in their society. Soon, they will be back to being pieces of property like they were under the Taliban.
I know it sounds cold, but we really didn't give a rats #@#@ when the Taliban were in power doing their despot thing. It's not like we were going to overthrow them for being brutal to their own countryman. It's only when they stepped over the line with harboring Bin Laden that we said enough's enough.
As long as they don't bother us, we shouldn't bother them. We tried to make it work...... just wasn't in the cards. First the UK, then USSR then US. Maybe China will be stupid and think they can do it.
As long as they don't pose a threat to us, Afghanistan can wallow in whatever misery it decides. It would have been nice if they actually took up democratic ideals and freedoms ect, but that ain't happening. I do feel bad for Afghan women when the change happens when Nato leaves. Once upon a time, Afghan women held a high place in their society. Soon, they will be back to being pieces of property like they were under the Taliban.
I know it sounds cold, but we really didn't give a rats #@#@ when the Taliban were in power doing their despot thing. It's not like we were going to overthrow them for being brutal to their own countryman. It's only when they stepped over the line with harboring Bin Laden that we said enough's enough.
As long as they don't bother us, we shouldn't bother them. We tried to make it work...... just wasn't in the cards. First the UK, then USSR then US. Maybe China will be stupid and think they can do it.
reply posted on 25-5-2012 @ 01:38 PM by pavil
reply to post by michaelbrux
National Debt is a HUGE problem, when it reaches the levels it has in the US and Europe. Japan basically has flat-lined economically since their debt crisis happened. They call it a lost decade, but it's been even longer. It's not going to be any different for the US or Europe. Their debt loads are a very heavy anchor slowing any future growth/ prosperity.
Plus China's economy is starting to cool off.......things are going to get crazy in the next few years.
National Debt is a HUGE problem, when it reaches the levels it has in the US and Europe. Japan basically has flat-lined economically since their debt crisis happened. They call it a lost decade, but it's been even longer. It's not going to be any different for the US or Europe. Their debt loads are a very heavy anchor slowing any future growth/ prosperity.
Plus China's economy is starting to cool off.......things are going to get crazy in the next few years.
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