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The Afghanistan Exit Will Humiliate The United States Worse Than Vietnam

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posted on May, 26 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by michaelbrux
 


As far as I can tell Pavil has it right with the exception of state & local gvts (bit of a shell game) please stop being coy & let us know who we owe this $ to (some big guy named vinnie?) I mean I have a relatively open mind I am willing to listen.
As far as what the OP is suggesting; there are some similarities between Vietnam & AG especially the system of govt we are supporting there and its reliance on the opium trade, like eerily similar. I do not see a frantic withdrawal of our troops, however, the Taliban does not have the backing of a world power and even less the supply lines like the NVA had. They may have some help from Iran but I do not see this being enough to cause a route-like exit for the U.S. Now once the U.S. leaves it is entirely conceivable that the Taliban ends up back in power.




posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by daaskapital
The US military has always been weak.It's why they can't win a war by themselves, and must get other allied countries to do all the dirty work. So many times has the US claimed victory for their allies operations.

Pisses me off sometimes


Really? Always been weak? Right.


Another ignorant post by someone that's just a hater.
And doesn't have Clue One about going to war. COD doesn't count.

Get a clue, Gus. There are multiple reasons why the US goes into operations with Allies. Mainly because it makes sense. Everyone brings something of value to the table.



America has always needed help from another country to win its wars, whether it was the American Revolution with the French fighting the British for you, or whether it was the Vietnam war with the Australians fighting for you. You have always needed help, I suggest you read the book SAS Sniper by Rob Maylor who is an Australian Afghanistan war veteran, he details quite extensively with his experiences with the Americans and writes about how utterly useless they were in the Battle of Khaz Oruzgan where the Americans had to be saved by the Australians.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Germanicus
"Crack the Sky, Shake the Earth"


You guys are crazy. Withdrawing from Vietnam was a VICTORY just as withdrawing from Afghanistan will be a VICTORY.

We were humiliated, shamed, and embarrassed when we INVADED these harmless countries.

You have it all bass ackwards.



LOL!!!!



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by Allenb83

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by chrismarco
 


wrong answer!

that's why I only come here to chastise people that don't know anything.

every one in this place is one of two things:

1. Liars.
2. they don't know anything.


For someone that thinks they know everything, you sure do ask a lot of questions. Its pretty ridiculous to post questions on a forum in the form of riddles and chastise those that don't answer them properly. Have an open mind please. I signed up for ATS to learn about different viewpoints and to bring something different to the table. Don't automatically assume that people are liars or they don't know anything. People can be more things than just these two. You keep posing questions, and I am not going to spoon feed you my answers to boost your ego.

To stay on topic:
I believe an exit from Afghanistan is exactly what this country needs. We are less secure now than we were after sept 11th because of blowback. If even one life is saved for our embarrassment and humiliation, then its worth it to me. Life is precious. We should have never gone into that country to begin with. We need to end these wars, and as soon as possible. We have killed many thousands of innocent civilians. We didn't have a good plan when we invaded, and the only thing we found there were abandoned caves. We waste billions of dollars a day of the peoples money to stay there, and it is all given to lockheed martin and haliburton so they can build more tanks for the military industrial complex. That is where our debt comes from. That is why we need a declaration of war from the congress. The congress that the people vote into their position of power. That is why we need to mind our own business and protect THIS country from harm. If we spread ourselves too thin, then it gives china and other countries opportunity to invade us on OUR SOIL. It scares the S*** out of me, and it needs to change.


there are no different viewpoints that are valid. there is only the correct answer.

comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam is emotionally manipulative and quite clearly incorrect.

The OP belongs to a world that feeds off of human suffering...if the US leaves Afghanistan, as it is in the process of doing, he and people like him will starve to death...thus he has started a thread to promote a situation where he can receive sustenance: one where the US will continue to fight in Afghanistan.

i know its counter intuitive that if a war ends and soldiers go home, people will die, but you are witnessing this with Afghanistan. what you are also seeing in the OP is a person who's life success depends on human conflict on the global scale.

attacking people like the OP and their beliefs and point of view is an obligation.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by LafingWithTears
 


When the Taliban governed Afghanistan they were only recognized by 3 governments out of 192. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and UAE and them just to keep Afghanistan on the map; the whole planet knows this group is not legitimate; not then, not now.

the idea of Debt and knowing the identity of the ultimate beneficiaries is the most important question that any of you should answer to understand what is happening and why.

OP works for people that know the ultimate beneficiary of all the Debt...and they fight day and night to keep those people from receiving their inheritance.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Iwinder
 


i don't know any of those things.

but whatever news you are reading must be more informative than my own eyes that much is certain.

i guess we are walking upon thin ice...whoa is us when our own weight sinks us beneath the water.

then the world will be a beautiful place.


Well here you can read it all below
www.theglobeandmail.com...

www.nydailynews.com...


Yep I would say that is very thin ice indeed, I live not far from Detroit and I can tell you that it used to be one hell of a wonderful city.

Anyways congratulations on being a super power and being able to destroy anyone in the world today.
That should come in handy when the food runs out and the lights go out.

Thanks for the reply to my post and Regards, Iwinder



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by chrismarco
Humiliation? I don't think humiliation could be even factored in...we went in under the impression that we were looking for WMD's...we ended up trying to decocratize a country who could have cared less at the time. I don't think anybody other than perhaps certain military officials give's a hoot that we are embarassed or humiliated in some way. What I do think people feel is snookered or even more distrustful around the government these days regardless if Afghanistan falls apart or prospers. Certain agendas have been reached with respect to certain companies/private security firms/construction/contractors/weapons manufacturers making their money.

You may think that we as Americans are humilitated but it's a constant frustration knowing that we extended ourselves for the good of certain people and not at all in the name of democracy so regardless what happens the same level of frustration is a constant but humiliation will not be one of them.
edit on 25-5-2012 by chrismarco because: (no reason given)


...Except this thread is about Afghanistan. Not Iraq.



Using military action after 9/11 was a mistake for the U.S. on many levels, especially financially.

During the beginning of the Afghan war, we had more officers in Manhattan than we did soldiers in Afghanistan. Now we're just guarding opium fields. It is a complete waste of time, lives, and resources.

This war also could've ended much sooner if Americans were more involved (draft). We might've cared some more and actually did more to end this horrible disaster sooner than Obama's coming up planned exit.

As for humiliation, we've already been humiliated in this war and the war in Iraq. The longer we stay, the more harm we cause to our own image and reputation...which both have been soiled tremendously.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by Iwinder
 


i once met someone from Detroit...didn't like him much.

Chicago, however, has never looked better in my entire life. everything can't be a win, I suppose.

did you know that if a professional baseball player only gets a hit 40% of the time that he steps up to the plate, if he does this over a twenty year period, when he retires he will be remembered as the most prolific hitter in MLB history and will probably make the Hall of Fame on his first try?

I find the above truth comforting...it means that perfection is not expected, only a strong effort in all one does.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


I think the exit from Afghanistan will be quite different from Vietnam....and besides you paint a picture of the American troops running leaving the South Vietnamese to fend for themselves....Hell, if the South Vietnamese would've taken up arms against the north, and fought for themselves, we would've never lost some 65,000 young lives over there.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by RadiantMonkey
Around the world if you whisper "America" it is soon followed by laughter and grabbing of pitch forks. In my opinion "America the home of the free" (typing that makes me break out in laughter even :lol
Has already been humiliated long ago and is now on to be considered as a JOKE..


Until a disaster strikes. Then your pissant little country is crying like a girl at a Justin Bieber concert, whining for free food, medicine, shelter, you name it.

"Pweeze, help me! My mud hut came apart!!"



But you can't even feed your own people right now?
Think Katrina and all the stuff that did not happen, as in food and water
Regards, Iwinder



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 07:56 PM
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I was not aware of the withdrawal from Vietnam as being a humiliation? Or if the current scheduled withdrawal from Afghanistan will be a humiliation as well? The US did a superb job in Vietnam, and by all accounts met their objectives on the battlefield. Were the problem arose was at home, and it included spineless politicians, rabble-rousers, and less than objective coverage by the MSM. The Vietcong and NVA got sent away in defeat from every military engagement initiated by the US military in Vietnam. That is fact! So, I would not necessarily call the withdrawal from Vietnam a humiliation. Unfortunately, lack of support from Washington and among the general public initiated the dramatic events that took place in 1975.

As for Afghanistan, the withdrawal and the success of such an endeavor will be based solely on the support and participation of the Afghan people, the patience of the American people, and above all the continued support of the politicians for the mission and particular objectives. Personally, I don't see a similarity between the events in Vietnam or Afghanistan? Perhaps, there is one similarity? That would be the stellar performance by the US military and their NATO partners, and just like their predecessors in Vietnam. They have not lost one military objective in the war as result of the Taliban.

We can go back and forth about the the semantics of both conflicts. Cut and dry the military did their jobs in both conflicts and attained victory in a military sense. Now, what becomes of the countries in question after said military engagements is beholden to the people that live there, and the over-all support of the populace from which military and economic support is provided. Just my two cents, and I cannot see anything to be humiliated about in either of the two conflicts.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Germanicus
"Crack the Sky, Shake the Earth"


You guys are crazy. Withdrawing from Vietnam was a VICTORY just as withdrawing from Afghanistan will be a VICTORY.

We were humiliated, shamed, and embarrassed when we INVADED these harmless countries.

You have it all bass ackwards.


How was Vietnam a victory?

The USA lost the Vietnam war simply because Vietnam is now a Communist country.

Afghanistan will be a loss, simply because the Taliban will take it over and continue their terrorist ordeals.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to post by daaskapital
 


how was Vietnam a Victory for the US?

another one sentence answer that none of you know.

ya'll will sit around not realizing things that others know for a fact.

don't seek the answer...just believe as you do and have a great life.


edit on 26-5-2012 by michaelbrux because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by daaskapital
 


how was Vietnam a Victory for the US?


Simple

It wasn't

It was a loss.

We will break it down together:

1) The USA couldn't defeat farmers

2) Americans couldn't adapt to the fighting style of the Viet Cong, thus the reason why Australia was used on most of the operations. (The Australian SASR was classed by the Viet Cong as "The Phantoms of the Jungle).

3) Knowing that Vietnam would be a defeat, the USA thought screw it and decided they would pull out (thus losing the war)

4) Once pulled out of Vietnam, the North gradually rolled on down and took over the South. Vietnam then became a single, Communist country.

Vietnam was a loss. The USA failed in stopping the communist spread, and they failed in helping South Vietnam.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Iwinder
 


i once met someone from Detroit...didn't like him much.

Chicago, however, has never looked better in my entire life. everything can't be a win, I suppose.

did you know that if a professional baseball player only gets a hit 40% of the time that he steps up to the plate, if he does this over a twenty year period, when he retires he will be remembered as the most prolific hitter in MLB history and will probably make the Hall of Fame on his first try?

I find the above truth comforting...it means that perfection is not expected, only a strong effort in all one does.




You are talking nonsense as far as I can tell.
I will leave it at that then.
You are very hard to converse with in any kind of normal way that I am use to here on ATS.
Perhaps you should brush up on your typing skills and try and lay off the mystic posts you seem to enjoy.
Regards, Iwinder



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by daaskapital
 


a loss for Australia perhaps. My Vietnamese brother-in-law is a great guy.

i ask again...who lost?



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by daaskapital
 


a loss for Australia perhaps. My Vietnamese brother-in-law is a great guy.

i ask again...who lost?


The allies lost, however, the USA mainly. One only needs to compare the state of Vietnam back then to Vietnam today to see that the USA lost the war in Vietnam



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by Iwinder
 


how is it nonsense?

you mention one American city that's having minor issues and going through a transformation as if it is evidence that this is indicative on the entire United States.

you keep saying Americans can't feed themselves, but others are talking about how fat we are.

are we obese or are we hungry?

while it can be both, it doesn't mean the same thing.

i think its you that is quite confused.


edit on 26-5-2012 by michaelbrux because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Germanicus

Originally posted by chrismarco
Humiliation? I don't think humiliation could be even factored in...we went in under the impression that we were looking for WMD's...we ended up trying to decocratize a country who could have cared less at the time. I don't think anybody other than perhaps certain military officials give's a hoot that we are embarassed or humiliated in some way. What I do think people feel is snookered or even more distrustful around the government these days regardless if Afghanistan falls apart or prospers. Certain agendas have been reached with respect to certain companies/private security firms/construction/contractors/weapons manufacturers making their money.

You may think that we as Americans are humilitated but it's a constant frustration knowing that we extended ourselves for the good of certain people and not at all in the name of democracy so regardless what happens the same level of frustration is a constant but humiliation will not be one of them.
edit on 25-5-2012 by chrismarco because: (no reason given)


The WMDs was Iraq. afghanistan was about chasing Osama and making sure afghanistan girls get to go to school apparently. And the public hangings in soccer fields.

And I mean your Government is humiliated and they look weak to other nations. This is important because faith in the US military equals faith in US debt. Once the US military starts to look weak the country looks weak. People stop buying your debt. Your economy collapses. Its all linked. The US Military is the only reason that the US Government maintains its Reserve Currency status.
as far as military goes we are not weak. we are STUPID. any country on the planet would not do well in these truly un winnable wars.



posted on May, 26 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by daaskapital
 


i'm not sure i'm understanding you...what exactly is wrong with Vietnam today?

I thought they were experiencing an economic golden age.

Vietnamese buy land here and open businesses and raise families.

most of the living people don't even know what a Soviet Union is and even China has come around to agree of the superiority of the Americans take on free market capitalism.

let me ask you an easier question...who won the Vietnam war?



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