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posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Okay. Here's something that has been bothering me for a while, and is unlikely to be resolved. But as you will see from the body of my ranting, I won't stop bringing it up just because it's been brought up.

You don't know what you think you know. That's right. Everything you know is not known. You've heard a lot of stuff over the course of your life, and you've made stuff up to explain how the world around you works... and this is good. The bad comes when you accept that as "The Way It Is".

If the development of science has shown us anything over hundreds and thousands of years, it is that we are most likely wrong. Should that stop us from suggesting new ideas? My defiance of that notion starts as a full-throated roar and just gets louder from there.

Once we are presented with a physical law, or an absolute of any kind, our natural curiosity and disrespect for authority should kick in. These things should be taken as challenges, not restrictions.

So frequently, an initial post here is immediately, and illogically shot down. Perpetual motion machines were my trigger for today. But other days, it's been odd atmospheric noises, or the existence of another planet in our solar system, or the possibility (nay, likelihood) of an Earth-impacting asteroid destroying civilization as we know it, existence of UFO's or life on other planets, possibility of time travel, faster than light travel, HAARP, chemtrails, NWO, Illuminati, Lizard-men from beneath the surface of the world, erosion of personal rights, existence of a Masonic 33rd Degree, the suggestion that the human race was engineered as slaves for some other beings we know only know anecdotally as gods, or the existence of a "God Particle".

Typically the first responders to these threads come with "That has never been the case, and so it never will be."

Do you see how dangerous that is? That's a suggestion that any further creative thinking will be ridiculed, or shut down out of hand. I submit that you, first responder of the shut-down variety, do not know what you're talking about.

Naturally, there can be exceptions. Like the frequent recurrence of hoax data. If we've seen it before, and it has been proven as a hoax, I say fire away. But every bit of new information, or new viewpoints must not be dismissed out of hand. I don't care what your credentials are, or how long you've been studying the science of it. Assuming you know the definitive answer to a concept you cannot possibly completely understand is nothing less than refuting the scientific process.

Prove to me that the universe is not the way I've explained it. I welcome the proof! But expect to show your work... and expect that work to contribute to further questions, further hypotheses, and further challenge to what we know. Anything else is turning our back on discovery.

I will not accept it. I will challenge it. I have questions, and they demand answers!




posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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Great work op. Now stop speaking my thoughts and start giving me evidence!!



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:08 AM
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Yep, theres others here on ats thinking the same as you. About 12 hours ago there was a thread about those **** who jump in with "This has been discussed before" Does that mean we can never speak of it again??

Good rant mate. S&F for ya



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:10 AM
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This has been said before.
Question authority.
Still very few listen.
Naaah ignorance and comfort are just easier..



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:44 AM
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I think your rant should be posted as an explanation for 'Deny Ignorance'. Very well put. I like to read about everything no matter how crazy and it is hard to go through threads where there is a boat load of replies but only a few with good info or discussion. My mind is open to just about anything and I agree with you. Let it be discussed till it's proven without a shadow of doubt to be false.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by VoidHawk
 


I hate that too! No matter how many times something has been discussed, there is always a chance to learn from a different POV. The subject may have been posted 800 times, and the 801 time it will contain something new and exciting.

To the OP... Nice post!
If we knew only half of what we think we did, we would be even more dangerous than we are now!



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by CrikeyMagnet
 


Good Rant!


I even take this mindset to a smaller daily level while at work. I daily hork (is that a word?) around loads with a pallet jack that are supposedly to heavy to move without a forklift.

My co-workers, bless them, always wonder why I do that and are afraid I may get hurt.

My reply is almost always the same. Either, "I don't know if I can do it until I try."

or "Nobody told me I couldn't do it." But I still have to try.

In my belief...once you accept things, you become stagnant.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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I, too, have been trying to get a handle on the good folks here at ATS. Just when you think you got a feel for a particular poster, WHAM - they throw you a curve. I think I will have to change or at least be flexible with how I post and present my thoughts in comprehensive words that are universally understood (short of cursing and using the F bomb). Pictures of puppies and ice cream cones used at the beginning of the post may work to attract attention, but I sincerely hate to "dumb" down my words to accommodate all readers to lead them to the second paragraph.

It really galls me to have to explain in several different ways a singular perception.

I guess what I am saying is: type your posts as if they are going to be read by fourth graders (they probably are) and be ready and willing to back up your hypothesis and explain your posts without getting uncomfortable about it. Then, do not get angry about secondary or tertiary explanations because the recipient may truly not understand what you have written even after he/she has called you a douche bag and questioned which canine was one of your parents.

All one can do is shake their head and keep marching, hoping the aforementioned questioner of the post falls by the wayside if not becoming enlightened.

I certainly hope I have given some smidgen of help. Good luck, kind sir.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by CrikeyMagnet
 


I even take this mindset to a smaller daily level while at work.


Ah yes. Work. My work may be a significant source of this mindset for me. I am a software tester when I am in the office... or at least that's the simple way of explaining it. It's more accurate to say that I break things for a living. That should give you a bit of insight into my entire worldview. (Though I should also mention that this takes over significant portions of my real life too. I void warranties!)

I've found the most effective software testing, or software QA people I've known have been able to completely ignore what they "know", and approach the system being tested with the eyes of a newbie. I have well-documented test cases that will show me how to use systems... but users of a system don't follow a standard process (even when training and documentation is all over the place), so the testing process NEEDS to be off the rails, and free of preconceptions (at least free enough to allow a lot of walking in the weeds).
edit on 25/5/2012 by CrikeyMagnet because: Clarification of my neuroses.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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reply to post by VoidHawk
 


It generally means that the topic has already been worn out...

Of course, there is always the possibility that the topic never got rolling the first time...every thread deserves a second chance...

And then, there are always exceptions.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:22 PM
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My thoughts are anything is possible, but not everything is probable.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by CrikeyMagnet
 


I don't think you know that I knew you didn't know what you thought that I thought I knew.

I just don't know if I can agree with your premise. You state an absolute that we shouldn't accept absolutes?

Absolutely.

And I knew it from the beginning.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by CrikeyMagnet
 


Great thread, I like it
S&F



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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Since posts about perpetual motion set you off, I'll start there.

Suppose I start a thread with a creative design for man powered flight. I decide to make a pair of wings out of feathers because I know feathers are light and I'm pretty sure that I can flap them fast enough. Seems awful creative because I decided to take lessons from mother nature and copy birds. Would you take issue with someone coming along and reminding me of gravity and Newton's scientific work? They would likely say to me that what I propose is impossible. Since I'm on ATS, no one else can possibly be right because I know I'm so creative and they are just trying to stifle my new idea. I don't really know what Newton was saying, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong because feathers are really light.

Just because I think my creative idea is right doesn't make it right, and since we live in an objective world of facts, it is appropriate for people to make me aware of my ignorance.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:19 PM
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Some of us are new and haven't been around discussing the same things over and over for 3, 4, 5 or more years. We shouldn't have to do a search, see a topic was discussed three years ago, so we don't bring it up. If it was discussed thoroughly a week ago or even a month ago, ok, fine, then we can tack on to that thread, but if the thread is over 6 months old and the members wanting to discuss it have only been here a couple of weeks, a few months or even a year or more, why should they have to just "shut up and move on" when they weren't even here when it was discussed before??
Shouldn't the ones who discussed it a year, or two or three or seven ago have thought about it since then and possibly come up with newer contributions based on the life they have lived and want to revisit it? Do any of them, in their realtime lives, ever discuss something once and only once, then never discuss it again? Not likely.

All those who jump in and scream "We've already been through this" and then link a dozen posts from over a year ago need to back off and get over themselves. If they don't want to discuss it, fine, don't post, don't subscribe and stay away from it. It's not a REQUIREMENT that they read and post on every thread that exists and they need to get over themselves.

ok, done ranting....for now



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by MeesterB
Since posts about perpetual motion set you off, I'll start there.

Suppose I start a thread with a creative design for man powered flight. I decide to make a pair of wings out of feathers because I know feathers are light and I'm pretty sure that I can flap them fast enough. Seems awful creative because I decided to take lessons from mother nature and copy birds. Would you take issue with someone coming along and reminding me of gravity and Newton's scientific work? They would likely say to me that what I propose is impossible. Since I'm on ATS, no one else can possibly be right because I know I'm so creative and they are just trying to stifle my new idea. I don't really know what Newton was saying, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong because feathers are really light.

Just because I think my creative idea is right doesn't make it right, and since we live in an objective world of facts, it is appropriate for people to make me aware of my ignorance.



Depends a lot on how they say it.
Do they say "NO you idiot, you can't do that because it's impossible. Take your Icarian ideas and stuff them. Go get a life!"
or do they say
"We discussed this once before and it turns out that you won't be able to overcome the force of gravity because even though you can flap the wings very quickly, there's not enough bouyancy due to the density of the air molecules and your own weight. Do you have any alternative ideas?"

If it was the first one, it's going to be a battle-royale. If it's the second, it may be a beneficial conversation.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by rbnhd76
reply to post by CrikeyMagnet
 


I don't think you know that I knew you didn't know what you thought that I thought I knew.

I just don't know if I can agree with your premise. You state an absolute that we shouldn't accept absolutes?

Absolutely.

And I knew it from the beginning.


Are you sure?



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by MeesterB
Since posts about perpetual motion set you off, I'll start there.

Suppose I start a thread with a creative design for man powered flight. I decide to make a pair of wings out of feathers because I know feathers are light and I'm pretty sure that I can flap them fast enough. Seems awful creative because I decided to take lessons from mother nature and copy birds. Would you take issue with someone coming along and reminding me of gravity and Newton's scientific work? They would likely say to me that what I propose is impossible. Since I'm on ATS, no one else can possibly be right because I know I'm so creative and they are just trying to stifle my new idea. I don't really know what Newton was saying, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong because feathers are really light.

Just because I think my creative idea is right doesn't make it right, and since we live in an objective world of facts, it is appropriate for people to make me aware of my ignorance.


HAHAHAHA you said you'd start with perpetual motion then went to man powered flight instead... I saw that!



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by PurpleChiten
 


I had to use an example that most everyone would understand. The two cases don't seem similar, but many perpetual motion threads are woefully ignorant of how gravity works, so they aren't so different.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by MeesterB
 


I'll agree that it is appropriate for people to remind you of physical laws surrounding the topic of your post... But it's much more constructive to point out how the design may be improved. The "That won't work! Fail!" messages are not at all helpful, and typically just make the responder look like a douche... As well as killing the creative spirit of the OP.

I like to take the approach of "Don't bring problems; Bring solutions." This also translates nicely to the workplace. I can score points by NOT playing Devil's advocate. If something doesn't look right, I'll figure out why, then work out how to make it better. Outright dismissal of a concept with no logic behind it rarely results in anything constructive.

I think in your example, it makes sense to also indicate that it may not be intended as a practical alternate form of transportation... But rather a pretty thing to look at, or a great idea that needs tweaking in order to be implemented.
edit on 25/5/2012 by CrikeyMagnet because: un-oopsening



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