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posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage
 


at this point i do not know that animals are self-aware or sentient. i know they have emotions.

once im shown they have self-awareness and sentience, then i will believe they have a soul.

however, i will not say that all animals are soulless, as the possiblity remains that a soul gave up sentience to experience animal life. i dont think it probable, but it is possible. why would anyone give up sentience on purpose?


stormson. it is very clear to see that they are.. else they would not run in fear of death for "Self preservation" and survival. Else your dog would not be able to comprehend the word "Sit" as a command.

however highly you want to view human intelligence and communication it still is no more than a series of recognizable syllabic grunts lol. so lets not put ourselves on too high a pedestal above the animals.. mammals at least.


on this we will never agree. self-preservation and self-awareness are not the same thing in my mind. im not trying to elevate humans, as i suspect that elephants, dolphins and some primates are self-aware, yet it hasnt been proven yet. once it is, im perfectly fine with accepting them as equals.

it also has nothing to do with intellegience. many mentally disabled people have low iqs, yet are sentient.

again, for me, it all comes down to sentience.

"i think therefore i am" taken to an extreme, i suppose.




posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:41 AM
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reply to post by stormson
 


y do you think that an animal has no thoughts? those thoughts may not be in english or russian. but in that animals language.

Dogs communicate.. they have packs and designated leaders
wouldnt dolphins be classified as sentient? look at how they communicate with humans

www.youtube.com...

what exactly for you constitutes sentience? what action could an animal perform that would demonstrate to u that they are indeed, sentient, self aware and thus have a spiritual essence?



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by 0mage
 


a scenario to try to explain.

you know how they have taught some great apes to sign?

ok, now take the best one and show it a dead ape. a friend of theirs perhaps. if it turns and signs "will i die?" or "i dont want to die", then to me that ape, and all of its people are then soul-bearing sentients and deserve protection. it is self-aware. of course it doesnt have to be this explicit, but you get the idea.

having seen elephants mourn their dead, i do think they are at least very close to sentience.

i have a cat. i watch it act on its emotions and instincts. however, if presented a dead cat, i dont think it would understand the concept of death. ive seen dogs stand by their slain comrades, but i dont think they get that their buddy is dead. every now and then you see a dog that mourns itself to death, but i think they just miss their companion. i dont think they understand death.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:54 AM
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I believe that inanimate things cannot have a soul, but they can still have a spirit. Like the spirit of America. The spirit of the trees.

Here is a highly informative article that you might find interesting.

www.edgarcayce.org...

Animals are lower forms of consciousness and are "lower" on the evolutionary pyramid. I believe that souls can be "demoted" (for lack of a better word) if someone reverts to primal unregulated human behavior it's likely that soul will be an ape in their next lifetime. Cayce said that the number of souls have never changed from day 1. This is why when the elite of our world lie about overpopulation we can see right through it!

The ladder goes both ways fortunately and while all souls meet again at the gateway in arcturus we are preparing our material manifestations to be closer ever to God and the nephilim we were created from. I don't believe we can start to achieve this until our minds resonate together like the ringing of a bell!

This is why it saddens me to be part of so much bitter debate lately. I very much appreciate the effort to work together in our similarities rather than highlight differences.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage
 


a scenario to try to explain.

you know how they have taught some great apes to sign?

ok, now take the best one and show it a dead ape. a friend of theirs perhaps. if it turns and signs "will i die?" or "i dont want to die", then to me that ape, and all of its people are then soul-bearing sentients and deserve protection. it is self-aware. of course it doesnt have to be this explicit, but you get the idea.

having seen elephants mourn their dead, i do think they are at least very close to sentience.

i have a cat. i watch it act on its emotions and instincts. however, if presented a dead cat, i dont think it would understand the concept of death. ive seen dogs stand by their slain comrades, but i dont think they get that their buddy is dead. every now and then you see a dog that mourns itself to death, but i think they just miss their companion. i dont think they understand death.


ok so a dog saving a baby would not convince you?

but if i found you something that portrays an ape questioning existence and/or death this is what you would constitute as having sentience? correct? just making sure i understand.. because i intend to present you with exactly that which you seek.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 03:57 AM
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reply to post by 0mage
 


i believe that animals think and communicate. i dont believe they are self aware. i dont even think all humans are self aware.

a 4 yr old human is alive, it communicates, it thinks, but it isnt self aware. when grandma dies, they think grandma just left. they dont grasp the concept of death. to me they either have no soul, or their soul has not formed. they have spirit, but it isnt a soul yet. a catapillar (spirit) becomes a butterfly (soul).

to me, only self awareness is a soul. you may contain spirit, but it isnt a soul until you become self aware.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by protocolsoflove
I believe that inanimate things cannot have a soul, but they can still have a spirit. Like the spirit of America. The spirit of the trees.

Here is a highly informative article that you might find interesting.

www.edgarcayce.org...

Animals are lower forms of consciousness and are "lower" on the evolutionary pyramid. I believe that souls can be "demoted" (for lack of a better word) if someone reverts to primal unregulated human behavior it's likely that soul will be an ape in their next lifetime. Cayce said that the number of souls have never changed from day 1. This is why when the elite of our world lie about overpopulation we can see right through it!

The ladder goes both ways fortunately and while all souls meet again at the gateway in arcturus we are preparing our material manifestations to be closer ever to God and the nephilim we were created from. I don't believe we can start to achieve this until our minds resonate together like the ringing of a bell!

This is why it saddens me to be part of so much bitter debate lately. I very much appreciate the effort to work together in our similarities rather than highlight differences.


we see that's why we have to standardize our usage of the words souls and spirits. ppl use them interchangeably and it can cause much confusion sometimes to know which one we're really referring to.

this is why i say let's call spirit that which we are born with or common to.. and Soul being a promoted spirit with full spiritual awareness as compared to average spirits do not recognize their spiritual self. in essence.. we must earn our soul as i stated earlier. but born with a spirit.

can we settle it that way?



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:01 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage
 


a scenario to try to explain.

you know how they have taught some great apes to sign?

ok, now take the best one and show it a dead ape. a friend of theirs perhaps. if it turns and signs "will i die?" or "i dont want to die", then to me that ape, and all of its people are then soul-bearing sentients and deserve protection. it is self-aware. of course it doesnt have to be this explicit, but you get the idea.

having seen elephants mourn their dead, i do think they are at least very close to sentience.

i have a cat. i watch it act on its emotions and instincts. however, if presented a dead cat, i dont think it would understand the concept of death. ive seen dogs stand by their slain comrades, but i dont think they get that their buddy is dead. every now and then you see a dog that mourns itself to death, but i think they just miss their companion. i dont think they understand death.


ok so a dog saving a baby would not convince you?

but if i found you something that portrays an ape questioning existence and/or death this is what you would constitute as having sentience? correct? just making sure i understand.. because i intend to present you with exactly that which you seek.


yes, you are correct. to question existence and/or mortality is the sign of self awareness. at that point, not before, the animal (human or non) has a soul. any creature, human or non, with a soul is my equal. their intellect is irrelevent.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:03 AM
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Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage
 


i believe that animals think and communicate. i dont believe they are self aware. i dont even think all humans are self aware.

a 4 yr old human is alive, it communicates, it thinks, but it isnt self aware. when grandma dies, they think grandma just left. they dont grasp the concept of death. to me they either have no soul, or their soul has not formed. they have spirit, but it isnt a soul yet. a catapillar (spirit) becomes a butterfly (soul).

to me, only self awareness is a soul. you may contain spirit, but it isnt a soul until you become self aware.


good so u can agree with my previous post in defining spirit and soul in our continued conversation on this topic. it sounds like u totally agree with my depictions except at the point of animals being sentient.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:09 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by protocolsoflove
I believe that inanimate things cannot have a soul, but they can still have a spirit. Like the spirit of America. The spirit of the trees.

Here is a highly informative article that you might find interesting.

www.edgarcayce.org...

Animals are lower forms of consciousness and are "lower" on the evolutionary pyramid. I believe that souls can be "demoted" (for lack of a better word) if someone reverts to primal unregulated human behavior it's likely that soul will be an ape in their next lifetime. Cayce said that the number of souls have never changed from day 1. This is why when the elite of our world lie about overpopulation we can see right through it!

The ladder goes both ways fortunately and while all souls meet again at the gateway in arcturus we are preparing our material manifestations to be closer ever to God and the nephilim we were created from. I don't believe we can start to achieve this until our minds resonate together like the ringing of a bell!

This is why it saddens me to be part of so much bitter debate lately. I very much appreciate the effort to work together in our similarities rather than highlight differences.


we see that's why we have to standardize our usage of the words souls and spirits. ppl use them interchangeably and it can cause much confusion sometimes to know which one we're really referring to.

this is why i say let's call spirit that which we are born with or common to.. and Soul being a promoted spirit with full spiritual awareness as compared to average spirits do not recognize their spiritual self. in essence.. we must earn our soul as i stated earlier. but born with a spirit.

can we settle it that way?


i agree with that. all living things have spirit energy, yes even plants.
for me the soul only comes with self awareness. thats the "promotion" if you will.

i ride a motorcycle. should i crash and my helmet splits and my brain goes to mush, no longer able to think, i believe my soul has left and only spirit remains. should for any reason i am no longer self aware, i believe my soul has left. old people suffering dementia. once they are no longer self aware, i believe their soul has left. (this does not mean kill them btw, only that "that which they are" is no longer here).



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:12 AM
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"...coordinate the teachings, the philosophies of the east, and the west, the oriental and the occidental, the new truths and the old... Correlate not the differences, but where all religions meet- there is one God! "Know, O Israel, the Lord God is one!"

Stromson don't forget the law of one. Nothing exists in the mind of the creator that does not have an intended purpose. Just as all creatures, from the dung beetle to the atlanteans, have eternal souls with a mission for each entity. It is the struggle of life to use free will in order do fulfill your soul's purpose. All creatures great and small have an ability to impact the world in some way.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage
 


i believe that animals think and communicate. i dont believe they are self aware. i dont even think all humans are self aware.

a 4 yr old human is alive, it communicates, it thinks, but it isnt self aware. when grandma dies, they think grandma just left. they dont grasp the concept of death. to me they either have no soul, or their soul has not formed. they have spirit, but it isnt a soul yet. a catapillar (spirit) becomes a butterfly (soul).

to me, only self awareness is a soul. you may contain spirit, but it isnt a soul until you become self aware.


good so u can agree with my previous post in defining spirit and soul in our continued conversation on this topic. it sounds like u totally agree with my depictions except at the point of animals being sentient.


exactly. as of now i have seen no concrete evidence that animals are self aware.

im 99% sure that insects and rabbits and mice and cows and the lower animals are not self aware.
im 60% sure that great apes, elephants and dolphins are however. thats why i feel they should be protected from poachers and enviromental devestation.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by protocolsoflove
 


see, that is where we disagree.

i believe in the tao, the innate workings of nature. animals are of the tao. they dont really have free will, cause they act according to nature. animals can not be considered good or evil. if anything, they are to be considered ideal, as they act according to the tao.

only soul bearing creatures have free will. they are the only ones that can deny nature and be classified as good or evil.

for me the tao is another word, or mask for the transcendent god.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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Well he's said that all living things have a spirit including plants so really this seemed an issue of that loose use of soul/spirit interchangeably. once we get that out of the way and use them in their proper respect we should be good. because i dont disagree..

All living things have a spirit
spirit through intelligence can graduate into becoming souls

what im hearing from both of you is that Spirits can be demoted to lower life forms. or they can be promoted to souls. but as i stated earlier.. once u have achieved soulhood you actually attain the power to choose whether or not u want to re-manifest and what form u want to manifest in as well.

Do we have a 100% agreement on that?



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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GOSH guys, I remembered that which has been eluding me in my mind. In reference to whether babies who die as infants have souls and stuff.

Cayce gave certain readings where he said that the reason a baby died was because the soul changed their mind and left the body. It has something to do with the parents not living up to the incarnating soul's agreement or where free will action causes the future of the parents to change so the incoming soul's mission could not be accomplished.
This is from the link I posted earlier:

The soul generally enters the baby body at or near the time of birth. In one unusual case in the Cayce readings, the soul did not enter for two days after the birth of the baby. When asked about the delay, Cayce responded that the soul was all too aware how very difficult life would be should it choose to enter, and it wasn't at all sure it wanted to go through with it! Cayce was then asked what kept the baby's body alive for two days while the soul wrestled with its decision, and he responded, "the spirit." For Cayce, the soul was the entity, with all its personal memories and aspirations, and the spirit was the life force.

According to the metaphysical work of Rudolf Steiner, the soul actually incarnates in four stages. 1) A first level of consciousness enters at or near the time of birth. 2) A second and greater level of consciousness enters around the time the child cuts it first teeth. 3) A third level enters during puberty. And, 4) The final and complete entry of the soul occurs close to the age of twenty-one.

I love John Van Aucken



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by protocolsoflove
 


see, that is where we disagree.

i believe in the tao, the innate workings of nature. animals are of the tao. they dont really have free will, cause they act according to nature. animals can not be considered good or evil. if anything, they are to be considered ideal, as they act according to the tao.

only soul bearing creatures have free will. they are the only ones that can deny nature and be classified as good or evil.

for me the tao is another word, or mask for the transcendent god.



i see where you're coming from now. we just have to use the word "spirit" and "soul" in the appropriate places to avoid confusion.

but i will add that you should view animals as being sentient since they have a spirit. it may be a lower level of sentience but sentience nonetheless



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:22 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage
Well he's said that all living things have a spirit including plants so really this seemed an issue of that loose use of soul/spirit interchangeably. once we get that out of the way and use them in their proper respect we should be good. because i dont disagree..

All living things have a spirit
spirit through intelligence can graduate into becoming souls

what im hearing from both of you is that Spirits can be demoted to lower life forms. or they can be promoted to souls. but as i stated earlier.. once u have achieved soulhood you actually attain the power to choose whether or not u want to re-manifest and what form u want to manifest in as well.

Do we have a 100% agreement on that?


Read my last post. I believe that the spirit is a force while the soul is a consciousness.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by protocolsoflove
GOSH guys, I remembered that which has been eluding me in my mind. In reference to whether babies who die as infants have souls and stuff.

Cayce gave certain readings where he said that the reason a baby died was because the soul changed their mind and left the body. It has something to do with the parents not living up to the incarnating soul's agreement or where free will action causes the future of the parents to change so the incoming soul's mission could not be accomplished.
This is from the link I posted earlier:

The soul generally enters the baby body at or near the time of birth. In one unusual case in the Cayce readings, the soul did not enter for two days after the birth of the baby. When asked about the delay, Cayce responded that the soul was all too aware how very difficult life would be should it choose to enter, and it wasn't at all sure it wanted to go through with it! Cayce was then asked what kept the baby's body alive for two days while the soul wrestled with its decision, and he responded, "the spirit." For Cayce, the soul was the entity, with all its personal memories and aspirations, and the spirit was the life force.

According to the metaphysical work of Rudolf Steiner, the soul actually incarnates in four stages. 1) A first level of consciousness enters at or near the time of birth. 2) A second and greater level of consciousness enters around the time the child cuts it first teeth. 3) A third level enters during puberty. And, 4) The final and complete entry of the soul occurs close to the age of twenty-one.

I love John Van Aucken


yeah i can agree with this. but i will add there are more aspects to realizing the spirit and thus becoming a soul. I dont think ppl are granted soulhood automatically from just being born. As far as i believe it must be earned, because this is the way i set out to achieve it and how i did with the assistance of my spirit guide instructing me all along the way and telling me of rewards to come and signs to look for etc which all did come to pass.

learning symbology, strenghthening the mind against infiltration and psychological manipulation are some fundamentals for realizing the soul. when the transformation occurs if your mind is not strong enough to control the soul force.. your head can literally explode or liquify your brains with the pressure that is formed. you must learn to channel the pressure with thought along the chakra path. Then you are able to activate the chakras and alter your state of consciousness with thought to enter higher realms at will through meditation.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage
Well he's said that all living things have a spirit including plants so really this seemed an issue of that loose use of soul/spirit interchangeably. once we get that out of the way and use them in their proper respect we should be good. because i dont disagree..

All living things have a spirit
spirit through intelligence can graduate into becoming souls

what im hearing from both of you is that Spirits can be demoted to lower life forms. or they can be promoted to souls. but as i stated earlier.. once u have achieved soulhood you actually attain the power to choose whether or not u want to re-manifest and what form u want to manifest in as well.

Do we have a 100% agreement on that?


i agree all living things have spirit.

i wouldnt say a spirit can be demoted tho. i think all spirits are equal, just as all souls are. the spirit of a tree is the same as a rabbit or dog. im not sure you "work your way up the ladder" of lifeforms. spirit energy just sorta swirls around, gaining form and losing it. the spirit of a rabbit mingles with the spirit of a dog or what not but its not a set form. sometimes it finds itself in a self aware creature and forms a soul. a soul is a set form tho.

a soul, due to self awareness, can choose to be an animal, but i think it would be a very special animal. a "spirit guide" or "familiar" if you will. i just cant wrap my head around giving up self-awareness.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by protocolsoflove
GOSH guys, I remembered that which has been eluding me in my mind. In reference to whether babies who die as infants have souls and stuff.

Cayce gave certain readings where he said that the reason a baby died was because the soul changed their mind and left the body. It has something to do with the parents not living up to the incarnating soul's agreement or where free will action causes the future of the parents to change so the incoming soul's mission could not be accomplished.
This is from the link I posted earlier:

The soul generally enters the baby body at or near the time of birth. In one unusual case in the Cayce readings, the soul did not enter for two days after the birth of the baby. When asked about the delay, Cayce responded that the soul was all too aware how very difficult life would be should it choose to enter, and it wasn't at all sure it wanted to go through with it! Cayce was then asked what kept the baby's body alive for two days while the soul wrestled with its decision, and he responded, "the spirit." For Cayce, the soul was the entity, with all its personal memories and aspirations, and the spirit was the life force.

According to the metaphysical work of Rudolf Steiner, the soul actually incarnates in four stages. 1) A first level of consciousness enters at or near the time of birth. 2) A second and greater level of consciousness enters around the time the child cuts it first teeth. 3) A third level enters during puberty. And, 4) The final and complete entry of the soul occurs close to the age of twenty-one.

I love John Van Aucken


yeah i can agree with this. but i will add there are more aspects to realizing the spirit and thus becoming a soul. I dont think ppl are granted soulhood automatically from just being born. As far as i believe it must be earned, because this is the way i set out to achieve it and how i did with the assistance of my spirit guide instructing me all along the way and telling me of rewards to come and signs to look for etc which all did come to pass.

learning symbology, strenghthening the mind against infiltration and psychological manipulation are some fundamentals for realizing the soul. when the transformation occurs if your mind is not strong enough to control the soul force.. your head can literally explode or liquify your brains with the pressure that is formed. you must learn to channel the pressure with thought along the chakra path. Then you are able to activate the chakras and alter your state of consciousness with thought to enter higher realms at will through meditation.


Are you familiar with the Akashic records? There is not a single thing that will be born on earth whose entire story and mission is not written in the great astral book of all things past and present. The akashic records are a timeless record of all entities and their deeds. The book of God. I think the soul is what you have already been given, what you must earn are the paths to unlock your future self and expand your consciousness.





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