Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage

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at this point i do not know that animals are self-aware or sentient. i know they have emotions.

once im shown they have self-awareness and sentience, then i will believe they have a soul.

however, i will not say that all animals are soulless, as the possiblity remains that a soul gave up sentience to experience animal life. i dont think it probable, but it is possible. why would anyone give up sentience on purpose?

stormson. it is very clear to see that they are.. else they would not run in fear of death for "Self preservation" and survival. Else your dog would not be able to comprehend the word "Sit" as a command.

however highly you want to view human intelligence and communication it still is no more than a series of recognizable syllabic grunts lol. so lets not put ourselves on too high a pedestal above the animals.. mammals at least.

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage

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a scenario to try to explain.

you know how they have taught some great apes to sign?

ok, now take the best one and show it a dead ape. a friend of theirs perhaps. if it turns and signs "will i die?" or "i dont want to die", then to me that ape, and all of its people are then soul-bearing sentients and deserve protection. it is self-aware. of course it doesnt have to be this explicit, but you get the idea.

having seen elephants mourn their dead, i do think they are at least very close to sentience.

i have a cat. i watch it act on its emotions and instincts. however, if presented a dead cat, i dont think it would understand the concept of death. ive seen dogs stand by their slain comrades, but i dont think they get that their buddy is dead. every now and then you see a dog that mourns itself to death, but i think they just miss their companion. i dont think they understand death.

Originally posted by protocolsoflove
I believe that inanimate things cannot have a soul, but they can still have a spirit. Like the spirit of America. The spirit of the trees.

Here is a highly informative article that you might find interesting.

www.edgarcayce.org...

Animals are lower forms of consciousness and are "lower" on the evolutionary pyramid. I believe that souls can be "demoted" (for lack of a better word) if someone reverts to primal unregulated human behavior it's likely that soul will be an ape in their next lifetime. Cayce said that the number of souls have never changed from day 1. This is why when the elite of our world lie about overpopulation we can see right through it!

The ladder goes both ways fortunately and while all souls meet again at the gateway in arcturus we are preparing our material manifestations to be closer ever to God and the nephilim we were created from. I don't believe we can start to achieve this until our minds resonate together like the ringing of a bell!

This is why it saddens me to be part of so much bitter debate lately. I very much appreciate the effort to work together in our similarities rather than highlight differences.

Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage

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a scenario to try to explain.

you know how they have taught some great apes to sign?

ok, now take the best one and show it a dead ape. a friend of theirs perhaps. if it turns and signs "will i die?" or "i dont want to die", then to me that ape, and all of its people are then soul-bearing sentients and deserve protection. it is self-aware. of course it doesnt have to be this explicit, but you get the idea.

having seen elephants mourn their dead, i do think they are at least very close to sentience.

i have a cat. i watch it act on its emotions and instincts. however, if presented a dead cat, i dont think it would understand the concept of death. ive seen dogs stand by their slain comrades, but i dont think they get that their buddy is dead. every now and then you see a dog that mourns itself to death, but i think they just miss their companion. i dont think they understand death.

ok so a dog saving a baby would not convince you?

but if i found you something that portrays an ape questioning existence and/or death this is what you would constitute as having sentience? correct? just making sure i understand.. because i intend to present you with exactly that which you seek.

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage

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i believe that animals think and communicate. i dont believe they are self aware. i dont even think all humans are self aware.

a 4 yr old human is alive, it communicates, it thinks, but it isnt self aware. when grandma dies, they think grandma just left. they dont grasp the concept of death. to me they either have no soul, or their soul has not formed. they have spirit, but it isnt a soul yet. a catapillar (spirit) becomes a butterfly (soul).

to me, only self awareness is a soul. you may contain spirit, but it isnt a soul until you become self aware.

Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by protocolsoflove
I believe that inanimate things cannot have a soul, but they can still have a spirit. Like the spirit of America. The spirit of the trees.

Here is a highly informative article that you might find interesting.

www.edgarcayce.org...

Animals are lower forms of consciousness and are "lower" on the evolutionary pyramid. I believe that souls can be "demoted" (for lack of a better word) if someone reverts to primal unregulated human behavior it's likely that soul will be an ape in their next lifetime. Cayce said that the number of souls have never changed from day 1. This is why when the elite of our world lie about overpopulation we can see right through it!

The ladder goes both ways fortunately and while all souls meet again at the gateway in arcturus we are preparing our material manifestations to be closer ever to God and the nephilim we were created from. I don't believe we can start to achieve this until our minds resonate together like the ringing of a bell!

This is why it saddens me to be part of so much bitter debate lately. I very much appreciate the effort to work together in our similarities rather than highlight differences.

we see that's why we have to standardize our usage of the words souls and spirits. ppl use them interchangeably and it can cause much confusion sometimes to know which one we're really referring to.

this is why i say let's call spirit that which we are born with or common to.. and Soul being a promoted spirit with full spiritual awareness as compared to average spirits do not recognize their spiritual self. in essence.. we must earn our soul as i stated earlier. but born with a spirit.

can we settle it that way?

Originally posted by 0mage

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by 0mage

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i believe that animals think and communicate. i dont believe they are self aware. i dont even think all humans are self aware.

a 4 yr old human is alive, it communicates, it thinks, but it isnt self aware. when grandma dies, they think grandma just left. they dont grasp the concept of death. to me they either have no soul, or their soul has not formed. they have spirit, but it isnt a soul yet. a catapillar (spirit) becomes a butterfly (soul).

to me, only self awareness is a soul. you may contain spirit, but it isnt a soul until you become self aware.

good so u can agree with my previous post in defining spirit and soul in our continued conversation on this topic. it sounds like u totally agree with my depictions except at the point of animals being sentient.

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by protocolsoflove

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see, that is where we disagree.

i believe in the tao, the innate workings of nature. animals are of the tao. they dont really have free will, cause they act according to nature. animals can not be considered good or evil. if anything, they are to be considered ideal, as they act according to the tao.

only soul bearing creatures have free will. they are the only ones that can deny nature and be classified as good or evil.

for me the tao is another word, or mask for the transcendent god.