All or nothing...

Hello everyone... im back with another religious rant...

I've been hearing this for years... and honestly it makes me wanna bash my face on something not so soft...

I hear pain temporarily solves facepalm moments...

Now lets see... There is 66 books within the KJV of the bible... consisting of the following

Old Testament

Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua Judges Ruth 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings 1 Chronicles 2 Chronicles Ezra Nehemiah Esther Job Psalms Proverbs Ecclesiastes Song of Solomon Isaiah Jeremiah Lamentations Ezekiel Daniel Hosea Joel Amos Obadiah Jonah Micah Nahum Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah Malachi

New Testament

Matthew Mark Luke John Acts Romans 1 Corinthians 2 Corinthians Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians 1 Thessalonians 2 Thessalonians 1 Timothy 2 Timothy Titus Philemon Hebrews James 1 Peter 2 Peter 1 John 2 John 3 John Jude Revelation

And as the poster below pointed out....Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) and Baruch.

Christians say... "you can't pick and choose what you like and what you don't in the bible... Its either accept all of it, or none of it"

...............

.........

...

SAYS WHO?!?!?

Perhaps i missed a preface that gives this command directly from Jesus?

OR

Maybe God himself wrote that little tidbit of information somewhere in his book?

In truth this is just another brainwashing tactic...

"This book is Gods word and thus all of it must be true... so you must accept all of it.... or you arn't accepting Gods word"

What a load of Bullshmit!!

Ahem...

We now return you to your regularly sceduled programming...

You forgot Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) and Baruch.

hi op

i read the bible once many years ago as a teenager
i could not comprehend it, all i could see was hypocracy
i believe in a creator, whom is also known as god (whatever it may be)
as for religion, each to their own, but dont go shoving your crap down my ears fanatists

I feel ya...

It's complete bullsheet when people suggest that you must accept all the books, and everything contained with in as being the word of god, and that you must follow everything to the letter.

Good luck with Deuteronomy 12-26

People forget that much of it is in regards to events and situations of the past, not to be addressed in the present.

Jesus... that's all you need. The book of Matthew, all the rest is background noise as far as I'm concerned...

Well, that's not all true, John was the man, also, he had the greatest name of all time.

reply to post by Akragon
Hmmm...nice to see you again Akragon, I hope you're well.

But I do have to disagree with you somewhere on this one - from the perspective (which I don't entirely share, with the current incarnation) of the bible being commonly understood as the full and true revelation of god himself, then it's definitely an understandable claim that I would otherwise have to agree with, given the various claims made in and of the book.

Now of course, that also entails understanding the context and what applies where and to who - such as a good many laws in the Old Testament not applying when there is no temple in Jerusalem, gentile believers not being bound by Mosaic law, and so forth.

Regardless...most christians are woefully ignorant of quite a lot of the bible (mainly OT) and tend to run on a slapped-together misunderstanding of various cherry-picked sections, but even if they fail at what they themselves advocate, I don't think they're wrong.

Take care.

Originally posted by AnonymousCitizen
You forgot Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) and Baruch.

My bad... corrected...

reply to post by Praetorius


Good to see you as well my friend...

One little comment about your reply...

IF the bible is Gods word as you stated....... Why would God make so many mistakes within the book?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Praetorius

 

Good to see you as well my friend...

One little comment about your reply...

IF the bible is Gods word as you stated....... Why would God make so many mistakes within the book?

Speaking only for myself, of course, with what little bit of information I've got at this time - I don't think he did, first off, and I'll admit I also take a fairly unorthodox view of the bible as compared to most believers.

That said, at least without other examples from you, most of the 'mistakes' I'm aware of come down to errors in transmission and transcription, and the like. While the masoretes were pretty extreme in their handling of the texts, I would imagine even they may have let some small errors slip through, and there are also matters of translation after that point.

And given the other scribes who were no doubt involved over the ages not being as particular as the masoretes...some data corruption seems understandable to me. But I'm also of the opinion from the little I've looked into this that not much anything of substance is affected by these issues either way.

If you want to either post here or shoot me an IM with some of these issues you mention, I can definitely let you know what I think?

The OT is not the word of God, how many scholars need to come out and prove that the OT and the books of Moses were written over the period of a couple hundred years, by multiple people?

I mean, COME ON PEOPLE, subservient fools,...

watch and learn...



word of god... pst

I hold the words of the New Testament in the highest of regards, but to pretend that the OT and other books are the word of God is STRAIGHT FOOLISHNESS. I can't wait until the day that there is no one left that still believes this. This is a joke.

just thought i would throw this spanner in... WHY?
god knows i was guided towards it
am i being sheereeuss...the beer says yeh lol

matt 23 13-39
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [a]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

reply to post by Praetorius


My friend there are so many issues with the book as a whole... it would take a week to list all of them....

Heres a few basic errors...

Did David kill 700 Arameans (2 Sam. 10:18) or 7,000 (1 Chron. 19:18)?

Did he buy a threshing floor for 50 shekels of silver (2 Sam. 24:24) or 600 shekels of gold (1 Chron. 21:25)?

Did 24,000 die in a plague (Num. 25:9) or did 23,000 (1 Cor. 10:8)?

Did God say that Abraham's descendants would be enslaved 400 years (Gen. 15:13) or 430 (Ex. 12:41, Gal. 3:17)?

Did God ask for a census of Israel (2 Sam. 24:1-2), or was it Satan (1 Chron. 21:1-2)?

Was humankind the last thing God created (Gen. 1:26) or the first (Gen. 2:7)?

Did Abraham move to Canaan before his father died (Gen. 11:32, 12:4) or afterward (Acts 7:4)?

And my thread of course... Genesis: A comparative Analysis

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS
Thanks MFTS, I've got this added to my youtube favorites and will watch it tonight.

Regarding what you say about the Old Testament, I won't speak as to the (supposed?) books of Moses right now, but the rest of the tanakh I take as the historical and religious histories of Israel/Judaism as collected by their society, from their own social view and memory.

I definitely feel that there are valid messages from the one I consider creator within, but I'll admit I don't consider it all the directly-transcribed words of god, as so many do. Perhaps I'm wrong about that, as I've seen some chatter regarding heptadic structure and other anomalies throughout (which I need to look into), but that's where I currently fall.

Take care.

reply to post by Akragon
Thank you for this, I'll make a point of reviewing and try to get back on this in the next few days.

Offhand, though, a good bit of what you posted here seems to fall into the categories I mentioned previously. Anyhow, let me do some looking at these and your thread and I will provide my thoughts probably this weekend.

Be well.

reply to post by Akragon

I hear ya, Akragon, and that right there is one glaring reason I could never, ever be a Christian.
"Its either accept all of it, or none of it"
Well, I accept none of it. My most recent thread took a lot of research to write, and I came across irrefutable evidence of Bacon and Dees's "editing" of the King James. And to think when I began I simply typed "truth about the King James Bible" into my search engine. And I came across many things that border on outright lies. Firstly we cannot be sure that we have the full version as it was originally intended. In 1415 the Church of Rome took an extraordinary step to destroy all knowledge of two second century Jewish books that it said contained the true name of Jesus Christ. Later, Pope Alexander VI ordered all copies of the Talmud destroyed. So, thanks to the Church, there is not a single original copy to see. It is known that the first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in Bacon's possession for nearly a year. The problem is that the King James Bible is filled with readings which have been created by overly zealous scribes! Very few of the distinctive King James readings are demonstrably Ancient. The King James Bible has undergone three "revisions" since its inception in 1611, incorporating more than 100,000 changes. Which King James Bible is truly inspired by God then?

On 25 June 1607 Sir Francis Bacon was appointed Solicitor-General and Chief Advisor to the Crown. He had presented new ideas to the Government for the Reformation of the church and was officially instructed to commence restructuring the Bible. Research in the Records Office of the British Museum revealed that original documents still exist which refer to important proceedings associated with Sir Francis Bacon’s involvement with the editing of both the Old and New Testaments. They revealed that he personally selected and paid the revisers of the New Testament who completed their task under the instructions of Bacon’s long-time friend, Dr Andrews.

The first English language manuscripts of the Bible remained in Bacon ’s possession for nearly a year.During that time :

...he hammered the various styles of the translators into the unity,rhythm, and music of Shakespearean prose,wrote the Prefaces and created the whole scheme of the Authorized Version. 6

He also encoded secret information into both the Old and New Testament An ancient document recorded that the true history of early Christianity was known to the initiates of the Order of the Knights Templar,having originally been

...imparted to Hugh de Payens by the Grand-Pontiff of the Order of the Temple (of the Nazarene sect),one named Theocletes, after which it was learned by some Knights in Palestine.

Regarding the months of editing work applied to the Bible by Bacon,his biographer,William T.Smedley, confirmed the extent of the editing :

"It will eventually be proved that the whole structure of the Authorised Bible was Francis Bacon’s. He was an ardent student not only of the Bible, but also of early manuscripts.St Augustine, St Jerome,and writers of theological works,were studied by him with industry."8

At the completion of the editing, Sir Francis Bacon and King James I had a series of meetings to finalise editorial matters associated with the new Bible. It was at this time that King James ordered a ‘Dedication to the King’ to be drawn up and included in the opening pages. He also wanted the phrase ‘Appointed to be read in the Churches’ to appear on the title page.This was an announcement clarifying that King James had personally given the church ‘Special Command ’ for this particular version of the Bible to be used in preference to the vast array of Greek and Latin Vulgate Bibles current at the time. His reason was personal, as King James had previously instructed the revisers to ‘defend the position of the king’ in their restructuring of the texts.This was seen as an attempt to distance the Protestant Bible from the Catholic version.The Protestant versions of the Bible are thinner by seven books than the Catholic version and the variant churches have never agreed on a uniform Bible.In their translation of 1 Peter 2:13 the revisors changed the phrase ‘the emperor, as supreme’ to ‘the king, as supreme’. Because King James’ Bible was written to support the authority of a king, the later church often referred to it as the one from ‘authority’, band it later came to be presented as if officially ‘authorised'. In subsequent revisions,the word ‘authorised’ found its way onto the title page and later still came to be printed on the cover, giving King James’ new Bible a false sense of authenticity.

source

reply to post by autowrench


Well my friend i am a KJV bible person myself... simply because it is a work of literary art...

Heres a quote directly from your "source"

There is no better English written this side of Shakespeare than that in the King James Translation.
~Charlton Heston

There exists a document named Q... within that document you'll find all of the gospels.

That text is apparently the earliest document known that has the original scripture of the gospels in its contents, and it dates to approx. 40- 80AD

Considering those books within the bible that have any relevance to "spiritual progression"...

I would humbly suggest you take a quick look over said ancient document...

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

Originally posted by Akragon

Did God ask for a census of Israel (2 Sam. 24:1-2), or was it Satan (1 Chron. 21:1-2)?

I've wondered that for years. God calls for no numbering of his people, then, they are numbered. Makes no sense.

I have come to the conclusion that Satan impersonated God more than once in the OT. Some will suggest that just makes the pill easier to swallow, and I hear that, but elsewise, if it wasn't Satan doing what he said he'd do, and impersonate God, then God is truely a schizophrenic.

That, I don't believe, but I can now see why people would think so. Satan tricked them into thinking he was God, and they were doing God's will.

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


Personally i don't believe said evil horned entity exists... I believe Satan represents materialism and was never a real entity to begin with...

Though i do believe it is "possible" he does exist as well but not in the way Christians believe...

IF he actually exists... i believe he is doing the job he was given to do... that being to tempt Gods children to turn from him

His name means "the adversary"... even "the deciever"

So if he exists he is aptly named... but to believe that an angel could attempt to overthrow God... or even start a war in "heaven"...

Complete nonsence...

Originally posted by Akragon

So if he exists he is aptly named... but to believe that an angel could attempt to overthrow God... or even start a war in "heaven"...

Complete nonsence...

I know you didn't ask, but you knew I'd throw my two cents in anyways, heh. But Satan is very real, my friend. And I agree, he's doing his job (in the end, we're all in God' will. If you believe in God, you certainly have to believe he's all encompassing right? This is a general question, more of just things typed as thought...). The reason I cut the quote to where I did was to address such, and now, I'll get to it.

Satan states that he wants to rule from the throne, that he desires to be God. That's why he imitates him whenever he can. It's all over feeling slighted as not being God's prized creation that he views humanity as.

His argument is in our actions, he's the accuser, through our own deeds. The devil never made anyone do anything. They have the choice in the end. Person's call is a person's responsibility.

Okay, so, Satan did go to war with God, he did. He isn't stupid, he knows he can't win. His only desire is to prove God wrong, and show he was more fit for the job. He gives people what they want after all. The thing is, God knows that sometimes, the things we want, arn't what we need to be exposed to. It's as simple as a child that really wants to play with the stove top, but as a parent, you know better than to let them, and try to teach them, "stove top = hot".

So, his war isn't because he thinks he can beat God in a battle, there's no way. It's just another of the accuser's motions to prove he was right. It's all about pride, self-importance. And God tolerates it, even allows it it's day, because he loves everything he ever created, and believes anything can come back to him in love. But as scripture states, Lucifer isn't going to change his mind. He's not going to stop, quit, or even hesitate. He'll take all he can get when he can get it. So, his destination is the lake of fire, along with anyone dumb enough to follow him there.

I don't mean to insult intelligence to anyone in that statement, but I believe in the Day of the Lord, when Jesus will explain things out to everyone for a literal millenia. Then, after his 1000 year sermon, Satan will be released, and people will follow him, still. After all that. Mind blowing...but, human nature too.

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


Thats an interesting story my friend, but what basis does it have in reality?

There is very little written about "satan" and the rest of the nasties mentioned within the bible... We litterally know nothing about them if they exist at all... They have no so called "prophets" and no written material aside from the "satanic bible" which is no more believable then most of the stories in the bible itself.

I contend that this "war in heaven" never happened...

I also have issues believing "angels" are subject to the same "free will" as man is... I would think (if they exist) since they know God better then any man they would not have the same issues as we do. Emotions such as pride, envy, jealousy and hate are part of the human condition which is what we are here to learn about...

This is the same as the idea that God "hates" anyone or anything... or even has a Jealous side... I find that impossible...

The true God would not have a need for any of these issues because in the end we all return to him... thus they are purely human emotions in my humble opinion. This is also why i don't believe the OT God is the same as the one Jesus spoke of...

reply to post by Akragon


The devil can be found and described in many passages of scripture. It's where I get the story from. I'll share them now. I know we may never see eye to eye on this matter, so I'll leave it dead with this post. Always do truely enjoy our chats Akragon, you're a smart cookie.

Genesis chapter 3 (the temptation in the garden) - we meet the serpent, whom Jesus will later in the book clearly refer to as the devil.

1 Choronicals 21:1 - Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel... (what we were just talking about, and proof that sometimes, people took the word of Satan as God's in the OT)

Isaiah 14:12-22 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

(here we see that he indeed wishes to be God, inpersonate him even if it requires the damnation of all. To Satan, it's all about him. Nothing else matters, nothing.)

Ezekiel 28:12-19 - Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

(this shows how God made Satan to be something wonderful, and how much it pains him how he chose to fall instead of fulfill his purpose as protector, not accuser)

I'll dig deeper into the OT, see if I can find anything more there. Now, for what Jesus had to say on the matter:

(Matthew 4:1) Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
(Matthew 4:5) Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest
point of the temple.
(Matthew 4:8) Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the
kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
(Matthew 4:10-11) Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship
the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" [11] Then the devil left him, and angels came
and attended him.
(Matthew 12:26) If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can
his kingdom stand?

(one more post to come, ran outta characters. ^.^; )