What's God's Plan?

The answer to the question has no answer. There is no reason to ask the question, as there is no God. God created nothing, and there's no good reason to use this other man-made concept to explain that which cannot be explained. It makes me mad to hear people blame their personal successes on God, rather than realize they simply were successful due to their efforts.

God is a concept that will forever forsake the progress of humankind in the universe. It is a self depricating and loathesome concept which will serve to do no other thing than to fuel a totally unwarranted collective inferiority complex. Not only that, but it will constantly be the unlike numerator by which we will continue to justify killing each other.

Currently there are three religions that actually pray to the same God, yet differ in their opinions concerning what his message is or was, and differ on who was sent to deliver it. For this reason, we fight each other. One of them doesn't even believe that there has been a legitimate messenger of this God. Yet we all agree that Abraham was our forefather. Ironically, Abraham only believed one way, but we can't follow his example, because of Jesus and Mohammed, and one other yet to be disclosed messiah for whom the Jews are still waiting.

Men tell stories. That's what they do. They are very good at it. They tell stories about anything. If they catch a small fish, they will tell you it was a big fish. If they're selling you a piece of crap, they will tell you it's not a piece of crap. Unless its actually a piece of crap that you want to buy. Which is what it seems most people want. There are all kinds of crap salesmen out there perfectly willing to let you pay for whatever you want.

Crap. All of it.

Delta...?
A few things:
I'm not sure if your posting this topic, your thoughts on it, due to 'outside' considerations or what, but your argument has some general 'holes' in it:

* You come right out within two sentences and proclaim"

...as there is no God.

Delta, neither you nor science can claim such and claim such with scientific proof or other. Correct? Forget the semantics of trying to say otherwise, because your making said statement because of a personal, subjective belief, view, conviction, and/or opinion, but certainly not with any type scientifically proven fact(s).

You then state:

God is a concept...

Again, even if 'God' is a concept, this assumption amounts to nothing factual. Because a religion(s) can be associated or ascribed to another, no matter the coincedences, you are making a blanket statement when saying that 'God' is conceptual.

You follow with:

...a concept that will forever forsake the progress of humankind...

O....k.....
Question:
How long has Man looked around Him/Her, and pondered just how insignificant He/She is in the grand scheme of things? Just how long?
Has such thinking really hindered Mankind or in truth, has it 'helped' it along? This issue(s) can go back and forth, but to what avail? No matter what is said to cause one to reconsider such said things, one will ultimately believe what one will, won't they?

I'm not here to convert you or really prove you wrong, etc....
I am merely trying to prevent one from making and stating blanket type statements that really have been under consideration longer than Man has been a thinking, rationalizing Being.




seekerof

i agree with deltachaos although seekerof brings up very valid points. many of the stories i have heard from the bible seem like fiction. actually the whole "god" thing goes very well with the whole "santa" thing among other stories of the like, easterbunny, toothfairy to name a few.
#If you dont go to bed right now, santa wont come. He knows if you have been bad or good. Be good, and get presents. Be bad, and get coal. He can visit all the houses in one night.
#God is all knowing, and all seeing. He is all powerful. He is everywhere. Be good and get heaven. Be bad and get hell. The ten commandments...

All of it seems to be made up in order to keep people behaving due to fear of something.

kids will behave, for fear of not getting presents.
followers of god will behave for fear of sinning, and going to hell.

*and we all know santa isnt real*

Delta - I would like to hear the alternate theory you have on creation. By your statements, it seems that you feel very strongly that biblical creation is incorrect. Please tell us more.

Religion seems to be all about control. Perhaps in ancient times it was used to teach morals and create rules within which a society could viably work. Since the architects of these laws had no real authority to enforce their values, they claimed authority from a higher power. Society has now outgrown the need for a supersticious 'santa' who will punish us for our transgressions, howver, it cannot be denied that in the grand scheme of things, religion has been a great force for good. Whether or not this is driven by 'god' is for each person to decide for themselves.

Originally posted by TreyFlipAWS
many of the stories i have heard from the bible seem like fiction.

Well ya if you take the stories literally. I'm sure they're metaphorical and full of symbolism that could only relate to the people of the time frame the bible was written in. How would you explain things like that to a modern civilization that knows alot more and has made incredible progress in the science fields?

Originally posted by Seekerof
I'm not sure if your posting this topic, your thoughts on it, due to 'outside' considerations or what, but your argument has some general 'holes' in it:

* You come right out within two sentences and proclaim"

...as there is no God.

Correct. My saying there is no God has the same inherent holes as one who says that there is.

Delta, neither you nor science can claim such and claim such with scientific proof or other. Correct? Forget the semantics of trying to say otherwise, because your making said statement because of a personal, subjective belief, view, conviction, and/or opinion, but certainly not with any type scientifically proven fact(s).

Exactly. What I've written is completely opinion and subjective belief. As you stated, no one has (or will) prove either way. And that is the way it will continue. It reminds me of the current presidential race. Everyone insisting on being right beyond any relevance of fact or reality. Since religionists cannot prove God, and scientists cannot disprove it, I'm prone to go with the ones who tend to make sense consistently, namely, the scientific community.

You then state:

God is a concept...

Again, even if 'God' is a concept, this assumption amounts to nothing factual. Because a religion(s) can be associated or ascribed to another, no matter the coincedences, you are making a blanket statement when saying that 'God' is conceptual.

It's not hard for me to believe that God is a man made concept. Just about everything else is. Economics, time, Santa, the Easter Bunny. We've had a long time to work out the kinks in the story and bolster its effectiveness in people's minds with fear, a great motivator. Its really just a re-hash of stories that have always existed. Classic hero/redemption story that all humans connect with.

You follow with:

...a concept that will forever forsake the progress of humankind...

O....k.....
Question:
How long has Man looked around Him/Her, and pondered just how insignificant He/She is in the grand scheme of things? Just how long?
Has such thinking really hindered Mankind or in truth, has it 'helped' it along? This issue(s) can go back and forth, but to what avail? No matter what is said to cause one to reconsider such said things, one will ultimately believe what one will, won't they?

I really believe that Man has considered his insignificance only relative to how ingrained in him the idea is that he is insignificant. We grow up learning in 'Church' that we owe all to this God, and that without it, we would not exist. Without God we would be nothing, and therefore do nothing. What I'm saying is that if we didn't automatically default to the false notion that we are insignificant in comparison to this ideal that we've created, that we may be able to feel a little more empowered when we accomplish something. It's sad for me to see athletes and others proclaim that if it were not for Jesus Christ, all they do would not be possible. All the while, there is always someone out there doing the same things with equal quality, without Jesus Christ. Go figure.

I am merely trying to prevent one from making and stating blanket type statements that really have been under consideration longer than Man has been a thinking, rationalizing Being.

I understand. But as long as Man has been rationalizing the subject, it really has only been a blanket statement from both sides. One side believes only that God exists, and that everyone else is wrong, and the other side believes the opposite. And when you break it down, all anyone has on the matter is their opinion. No one has proof either way. And no one ever will, because God doesn't exist.

Impossible for scientists to prove that negative.


[edit on 3-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Originally posted by popeye0314
Delta - I would like to hear the alternate theory you have on creation. By your statements, it seems that you feel very strongly that biblical creation is incorrect. Please tell us more.

Yes, I believe that creation is incorrect.

I believe evolution has occured. I believe this because it has been backed up with data. If one believes in creation, they are basing their belief on one book, which contains no data or other relevant information to support the claim. Furthermore, the story has remained the same for about a thousand years now, while science has continued to update their findings.

If someone wants to believe beyond reason what is contained in a thousand year old book, they do so by choice alone, and without the benefit of real information.

The story of creation is simply a leftover from a time in the history of Man when we didn't have the knowledge of the world around us to explain how it works. Well, now we do, to a large extent.

I find it unfortunate that the belief in this creation nonsense is so strong that it is actually preventing us from bettering ourselves. Religion is preventing the study of stem cells, contributing to the over-population problem, and generally allowing people to escape accountability for the things they do that are good. Not to mention feel unreasonably guilty for the wrong that they do.

To blame God for success in one's life is to undermine all of the work that one has done to become successful. Credit where credit is due, I say.

Originally posted by Linux
Well ya if you take the stories literally. I'm sure they're metaphorical and full of symbolism that could only relate to the people of the time frame the bible was written in.

This is another problem.

Why would anyone in their right mind base their entire system of belief on figurative metaphors, especially ones which could be interpreted any way one needed to suit their needs?

At least in the Old Testament, Moses had good, literal advice for people, albeit for poor reasons. He taught his people that if you spilled the sacrificial blood into the earthen vessel, it must be destroyed rather than re-used. But if the blood was spilled into a brassen vessel, you merely rinse with water and re-use. That makes sense, since blood is a bio-hazard, and an earthen vessel, being porous, would allow this hazard to remain, whereas a brassen bowl would not. But ultimately, the reason was not the obvious, scientific one, but rather that it 'was commanded so by God'.

Also, Moses told his people that while outside the camp, place feces in a hole that you dug with your weapon or other tool. But not for reasons of sanitation, but just because if God showed up unexpectedly, we wouldn't want him to see anything dirty.

What a bunch of crap that modern field sanitation methods can be traced back to the desire to not be embarrassed if God happened to see your poo.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by Linux
Well ya if you take the stories literally. I'm sure they're metaphorical and full of symbolism that could only relate to the people of the time frame the bible was written in.

This is another problem.

Why would anyone in their right mind base their entire system of belief on figurative metaphors, especially ones which could be interpreted any way one needed to suit their needs?

Perhaps thats the style of thier time. What would anyone of thier time know about our time. Literacy has changed over the centuries and will continue to do so. Poetry could have meant alot to them. Who knows right? its an ancient book that doesn't exactly hold much merit in my eyes since its been tampered with, who knows how many times during translation.

Originally posted by Linux
Perhaps thats the style of thier time. What would anyone of thier time know about our time. Literacy has changed over the centuries and will continue to do so. Poetry could have meant alot to them. Who knows right? its an ancient book that doesn't exactly hold much merit in my eyes since its been tampered with, who knows how many times during translation.

Who cares about how the old and dead people thought or on what they placed importance? They're gone.

My point is that there are people today all around us that still cling to this crap. Oh, don't tell me anything that isn't in my little book here, because if it isn't in there, it's a lie and it's Satan's fault.

My other point, which was only alluded to, was that yes, the people of the past were idiots scientifically, relative to the present. Hell, Socrates and Plato and Aristotle and their contemporaries were smarter about science in 600 B.C. than they were in the time of Christ, thanks to Rome.

And by the time Constantine had usurped the power hidden within the Christian movement for his own ends (money and power), IQs had dropped sharply simply because the common people had no choice other than to believe what they were expected to believe. And by the middle ages, this world was so wicked stupid that it was literally backwards.

Sadly, there are people that still subscribe to this method. Look at the Mormons and all of the screwed up ideas they plant in their children's heads. The Heavenly Father loves you, and as long as you do as is prescribed in this set list of things to do, you may have a chance of making it into the Elite circle of the righteous worthy. Otherwise, you have the mediocre circle, the substandard circle, and the completely unworthy circle to choose from. Now, my child, do as you're told, or be cast into outer darkness!

It's perfection or bust in these people's world, and it isn't healthy. It's do it right, or be separated from your family and the people you love for all eternity.

My grandmother always used to tell me how she wished that I would go to church so that we could be together in the afterlife. And now that my Grandpa has died, she will literally tell you that she's looking forward to death so that she can be with him again. That's it, it's over. Just waiting to kick it.

All for a book and what it says. No question about it, just, "well, this is how it is, because this is what it says, and everyone in my group of happy church-goers agrees with it, and so do I, so it must be true."

This is counter-productive. Let the dead people die, and let old, useless Gods die with them. Like Zeus and Venus, in turn, so too will Yehova die. All it takes is the idea to phase out.

There is just as much evidence for creation as there is for evolution, it's just the way you look at the evidence. Evolution is a belief, no-one can go back and see what happened. They base their theories on the evidence from what they see now. And their dating methods are based on assuming that the rate of decay and the rate of carbon 14 and radiation and other chemicals that they use for dating things, has been constant but the fact is that they haven't. So how can we know any of the dates that they say are any where near correct. For example they used to say that layers in rock represented years. But they have found many layers in the rock at Mt Helen that were layed in one day.

I have to agree with everything that Delta Chaos has said. Falme me if you will. But I believe that the concept of a all powerfull "GOD" is hooey, invented off the top of someones head because that was the only way they could answer their own questions i.e. why are we here? Or how did we get here? Or maybe as Delta had stated that playing on people's fears was a good way too keep them in line. and this whole thing has been perpetuated from one generation to the next. And sadly I think that the main reason that people who truly believe in god do their damndest to be a good christian is not because they want to go to heaven. But, Because they most certainly DON'T want to go to hell!

Something else that delta Chaos(I think) was talking about in his post was zeus and all the other god's and godesses. these are all figures that were very feared and very real to the pople of the time. yet these day it is all reffered to as Greek MYTHOLOGY or roman. whatever...... the point is that at some point even the people to whom these "gods" were reviered thought the whole concept was dumb..... and something "not to quote a movie" that has a lot of relavence especially in the argument of weather or not god actually exists is is hocham's or ocham's razor I think its called. which states that all things being equall. the SIMPLEST explaination tends to be the right one! anyhoo thats how I feel about eh whole thing

Originally posted by rosebeforetime
There is just as much evidence for creation as there is for evolution, it's just the way you look at the evidence. Evolution is a belief, no-one can go back and see what happened. They base their theories on the evidence from what they see now. And their dating methods are based on assuming that the rate of decay and the rate of carbon 14 and radiation and other chemicals that they use for dating things, has been constant but the fact is that they haven't. So how can we know any of the dates that they say are any where near correct. For example they used to say that layers in rock represented years. But they have found many layers in the rock at Mt Helen that were layed in one day.

There is absolutely no physical evidence to support creationism. Only the testimony of those who believe the book, and how much they believe it. The evidence of evolution, where it is most observable is not in archaeology or anthropology, it is in biology. As in a small system of frog and snake, where every generation of frog produces higher levels of poison to prevent the snake from eating them, and the snakes resistance to the venom increases equally. As in the case of some amphibians, when having suffered a great imbalance of the male to female ratio, they will become hermaphroditic to bolster the lacking gender. In the case of virus and bacteria and their ability to resist medications within one or two generations.

All this is evolution, and we need not look any further back than yesterday to see it. It happens, it's proven, and it's here to stay. No new information has been brought forth in support of creationism. Just more fanatical insistence that it is the truth. Which doesn't fly. Why would we assume that the evolution we see today wouldn't be in effect in the past, as if it were a new thing?

Radio-carbon dating is flawed, but more often than not, its innacuracy lies in the occurence of the mixture of new materiel (dust, ash, recent decomposition) with the old. Not the point.

And as for the Mt. St. Helen thing...

I don't think that a trained geologist could mistake igneous rock formations with sedimentary or metamorphic. It's really a no brainer that a volcano is probably going to have some strata that were laid in a day or less.

Give me this evidence of creationism that is equal to that for evolution.

So wait, you want to say that Evolution has occured, by innacurate evidence accured by incorrect scientist. What I mean by this is, that I do not want to insult you, or anything you stand for. But to say that not everything has a scientific Answer. Not everything can be proved by science, if this was so than we could compensate that Mattter could just destroy itself, whenever and wherever it would like to. if this was so than people could just randomly expload, and during all of this time the chances that the sun could blow up would have risen dramatically.


Countless times Physicists have proved that power equals light, and light equals time. Thus, power would equate to time. Thus proving that it wouldn't have happened in a flash. To change, no skeleton has ever found in Mid-Evoloution. The few creatures that looked like they were in between were incorrect, two creatures fossilized together, or over a short span of time and eventually scientists finding and believing that these were indeed some kind of mid-evoloution creatures. If earth had supposedly been a mass of lava,rocks, Carbon, etc... The protiens coming together at this tempature, and location within the earths apparent "Primitive" Atompshere would be around 1 Quantum Quintillion to 1. Which would be a 1 followed by 80 trillion sets of zeros followed behind it. That being said, even though that would still be a chance, it's very, very slim.


Also, Earth's chances of coming here would be like this: If we were located where Veuns is, it would be too hot. And if we were where Mars is, it would be too cold. Ideal location here. Also, Our Atmosphere contains exactly 22% of oxygen, any more and if we lit a match we would be blown dom come, any less and we couldn't breath it. These conditions are just to radical for a scientific approach.

So go on, disagree with me, but I don't care. i know the truth, and will rejoice someday will my Heavenly Father. The Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end.

This has been a topic that's really been bugging me for the past few months, due to my families experiences and such, plus some of my own. I don't think I believe in God, I know I don't believe in the one portrayed in the bible, as if it is God, I think it was twisted way out of proportion over time, through the eyes of man.

However back to what really bugs me. What if that's just how it is, and it fails to matter whether we can prove it or not, let alone believe. No matter how unpractical that may be, it's still a possibility, if only small. It's somewhat unsatisfying to be a fence sitter for long periods of time, as most of you might know as I, yet that's still where I seem to be.

Sure I have my own beliefs, which I will stick to until I die, but I still am somewhat able to acknowledge the possibility that I may be wrong, even though some beliefs and knowings go right down to the bottom of what I am. In this I get a strange relief, and believe that right now, no truth is relavent other than your own. But you could be wrong, but it doesn't really matter, get it?

Hope that made some sense, as I could be wrong about all of it. But this is me right NOW.

Deaf Fences Hit

[edit on 3-10-2004 by deafence#]

Originally posted by AeroQuake
So wait, you want to say that Evolution has occured, by innacurate evidence

Inaccurate? Maybe. But Evidence nonetheless. Can Creationists say that they have even inaccurate evidence?

Also, Earth's chances of coming here would be like this: If we were located where Veuns is, it would be too hot. And if we were where Mars is, it would be too cold. Ideal location here. Also, Our Atmosphere contains exactly 22% of oxygen, any more and if we lit a match we would be blown dom come, any less and we couldn't breath it. These conditions are just to radical for a scientific approach.


Arguably such circumstances as you have stated above are the basis of evolution. Why did humans evolve here? Because exactly as you have pointed out for us. the conditions on this planet and the circumstances leading up to the evolution of man were perfect.

Originally posted by AeroQuake
Ideal location here

Nuff Said man. If Venus was is the solar system where earth is now. we would all be living there.

But how slim, indeed. I don't need bother to argue, I know the truth. So say what you want, I will return...Maybe.

Originally posted by AeroQuake
But how slim, indeed. I don't need bother to argue, I know the truth. So say what you want, I will return...Maybe.

You suppose the truth. You know nothing, as do I or anyone else. Truth is always subjective. You see what you want to see, you hear what you want to hear. The only way to know for sure, I guess, is to die and see what happens. But when nothingness happens, you surely won't be dissapointed. You won't exist to know any better.