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Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

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posted on May, 24 2012 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Alxandro
Some Dallas Malls are cracking down on baggy hip hop pants.
Why should headscarves be any different?



It is no different and in both cases wrong. It is also wrong to accept either as being acceptable. Want to stop the baggy pants trend? It only requires you to convince young women to quit dating the boys wearing them.




posted on May, 25 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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Maybe in some fictional fantasyland, In an ideal world your solution could work, unfortunately the world is neither ideal nor people perfect. people are generally apathetic to such things. If it is closer, open and has what they intend to purchase few will travel further to get it because of some principled objection. This is why civil rights legislation was passed in the first place. People are irrational, business owners will willingly make less money to keep certain groups out. It is poor business sense but they will do it. Consumers don't typically want to be bothered with moral and policy issues to shop. It makes absolutely no sense to require someone to have to go out of their way or neighborhood to shop for groceries because some bigot had the resources to open a grocery store. It makes even less sense for that person to have to pay for the extra fuel to go out of their way to do so.


I agree with everything you've posted to this thread...including this rebuttal.

It would require a perfect world and perfect people for libertarian ideologies to work perfectly. But
why not aspire to perfection?

My bottom line on the face-covering thing breaks down to one question and its answers...

Should this woman be allowed to wear her face-covering?

If you answer NO and cite fear of not being able to recognize her if she engages in criminal activity,
then that reason is hard to refute, and requires more discussion and a democratic consensus.

But if you answer NO because you think her religion is wrong, or her belief or culture is backward
and shouldn't be tolerated, then what you are attempting to do is to force your control and your will
on another human being, without the other human being's consent. And who's to say you're right...?


edit on 25-5-2012 by rival because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 


I concur with the majority of replies to this issue. What was the problem ? And she had two young children with her...I think more attention should focus on the way some western women dress in public. I,m no prude, but some of the current fashion trends ( Here in England, at least...) leave nothing to the imagination, I personally, would much rather see a woman elegantly dressed, with some modesty.
Edith Head, the Hollywood costumie designer once said ( paraphrased. ) " A woman's clothes should be tight enough to show that she a woman, and loose enough to show she,s a lady ". Spot on, in my book...



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 02:29 AM
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reply to post by nonono
 




In my country there's a law that says you can't wear a mask in public because it makes it difficult to identify you.

What's the area code of your country, 1984?

You sound like you're proud of being identified by people you don't know for other people you don't know.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 




The hell with the veil take it off you are in America plain and simpleor go back to your country to become oppressed again.

She was born in the US, you small minded ape, you and all those who starred you.

You're amazing and for that you receive a shiny 10 points.
Well done sunshine.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 05:03 AM
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i just still dont understand how muslim women STAY muslim when coming to countries like america, or europe for that matter. the suppression of women in islam is pathetic. i live in denmark, and are starting to see DANISH girls turning muslim... thats fu*** up!

for the topic, though... why would she need to wear it inside anyways? lets make a list...

Primary function of clothes: keeping you warm

secondary function:


do i need to say more? sure, there's freedom of religion, but if i was in her country (sorry, but NO.. america is NOT her country), wearing crosses and walking around without a shirt, with my body full of christian/jewish tattoos, i would probably get executed.

i ACCEPT religion being here, but i refuse to RESPECT any religion, or any person, taking part in any religion.

when will the madness stop!? when will we get together and work together to FIND OUT the answers, instead of fighting about who has the right one. odds are... none of you are even close to being "right"



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 05:06 AM
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So...


I guess Halloween is a no-go this year? Too many potential threats.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 05:28 AM
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I can understand for security reasons it might cause unease, even people wearing hoodies, and so on. There is something very uncomforting for a lot of people if they are unable to view your face. A few years ago, I burned my face due to being in the sun too long and not realising it was as hot as it was...I ended up with a very sore, red, flaking face and on that day I was expected to go out to a theme park.

I also suffer heat stroke easily, so wore a hat, along with a bandana to hide my face, which was also very sore still. I had people looking at me, and I didn't especially feel comfy with the stares, but I'd have prefered they stared at my disguise than my face at that time.

To be honest, it is give and take in both favours. Security and both the comfort of people both in the "disguise" and out of the "disguise".

Not beleiving in religion myself, I could easily say "for security reasons, and others comfort, take it off", but at the same time, disfigured people may also wear disguises, and I know if I was told on that day out at the theme park to remove my face wear I'd have been very angry and against it. Usually the person in the covering is more worried than the people out of it.
edit on 25-5-2012 by LightInside because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 05:39 AM
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Here is the thing. Sounds like this mall is owned privately so it is their mall their rules. If you don't like it stfu and leave. Nobody forced her to go to the mall. If she wants to go on public property like a park or something nobody can say anything but at the mall it is a different story. Not like a cop was telling her to take it off.

Complete non issue. She shouldn't even complain she has no right to do that. It is pretty much a ski mask. I know of a few liquor stores that have locked the door and wouldn't let me in because I approached wearing my full face motorcycle helmet. They think you could rob somebody and they have every right to ask you to leave or take it off.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by smyleegrl
 


I do not know what the laws are there however people, are we using common sense here or not?

I keep seeing posts and conversations about such things like this and its obvious why there is problems with such. If you walk in a public place, specially a mall. You should not be allowed to wear anything over your face or anything that would obscure your view from others and cameras. As that really is a security risk.

You can not think, any of you that it is ok to do this, for this reason alone. It has nothing to do with religion or discrimination. Its simply protecting those around you. If I walked into a shopping centre wearing a balaclava, you'd find it hard to trust me, im sure. Same thing.

It's got out of hand already, this silliness needs to stop. These people are just making a mockery of the world.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by Migah
i just still dont understand how muslim women STAY muslim when coming to countries like america, or europe for that matter. the suppression of women in islam is pathetic. i live in denmark, and are starting to see DANISH girls turning muslim... thats fu*** up!

for the topic, though... why would she need to wear it inside anyways? lets make a list...

Primary function of clothes: keeping you warm

secondary function:


do i need to say more? sure, there's freedom of religion, but if i was in her country (sorry, but NO.. america is NOT her country), wearing crosses and walking around without a shirt, with my body full of christian/jewish tattoos, i would probably get executed.

i ACCEPT religion being here, but i refuse to RESPECT any religion, or any person, taking part in any religion.

when will the madness stop!? when will we get together and work together to FIND OUT the answers, instead of fighting about who has the right one. odds are... none of you are even close to being "right"


You can't be this naive?

Clothes are not primarily for keeping us warm. This is not the dark ages. We have heaters and air conditioners for keeping us warm. Clothes primarily serve to pacify the prudes and hide our sexuality, and secondarily serve as a form of self expression. They advertise who you are and what you stand for before you ever open your mouth. They are a non-verbal form of communication. In any given week, I will wear a doorag and biker vest, a full business suit, nothing at all, gym clothes, and carpenters pants with boots and a long sleeve t-shirt. Each set of clothes serves a functional purpose as well as a non-verbal communication purpose. None of them are to keep me warm. Some are to be loose and provide easy movement while drying from the moisture quickly. Some are to say, "leave me the f alone" without me having to say it aloud. Some are to say, "yes, I am educated and professional and you can trust my decision making."

I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing that clothes have so much power. The majority of the time I am at home, I am barely clothed if at all. We have parties just about every weekend, and there is always some level of nudity whether it is just bikinis, or topless women, or fully nude men, it runs the gamit depending on the crowd. Clothes are not necessarily important, but if someone chooses to wear a specific style of clothing that sends a message such as a religious preference or a biker attitude, then so be it.

I fully understand why a Muslim woman might want to wear the traditional garb in the US. It keeps the wolves at bay. It is exhausting for a woman to be hit on by men all the time, and like it or not, the constant barrage does eventually wear down one's ability to resist. Some women dress like librarians, some dress like lesbians, there are many ways women dress to avoid having to beat the men off of them with sticks. Others dress specifically to attract the men. To each their own.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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So the mall is privately owned and therefore they have a right to ask her to leave ...

does this mean they could also ask ...

... women with children under 5 to leave?

... people with a BMI over 20 to leave?

... people over 35 to leave?

... people that are Black, White or Hispanic to leave?

... girls with tattoos showing just above their rear to leave?

How do YOU determine who can be discriminated against?



pathetic ...

BTW does a bank robber not wear a mask, hat or sunglasses into a bank because its against policy?

Does wearing a hat and sunglasses in a bank suddenly make you want to rob the bank?

You know I could go into a bank armed to the teeth and I still wouldn't rob it ... think about it.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:10 AM
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Originally posted by mysterioustranger
Good. If we went to her country, we would have to abide by their ways. Theyre here...so abide by ours.


Did the Europeans abide by the Native American's wishes when they first set foot on this soil?

America is the melting pot, where everyone from every country is welcome to come. I do not feel threatened when I see a Muslim woman or man wearing their traditional or religious clothing, no more than I feel threatened when I see an Amish person wearing her cap and plain dress, or a Pagan wearing their pentacle, a Christian wearing their cross, or a Native American wearing their regalia.

If you do not like it here, you can always pack up and go to a deserted island, where no one is around to offend you.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:13 AM
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The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone Because of Appearance, Odor or Attitude?


The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone Because of Appearance, Odor or Attitude?

Leanne Phillips - Oct 2007

Is it a violation of your civil rights for a business to refuse to serve you because of the way you look, the way you smell, or the way you act? The answer is...it depends.

The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability.

In addition to the protections against discrimination provided under federal law, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act. For example, California's Unruh Civil Rights Act makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress or sexual preference.

In the 1960s, the Unruh Civil Rights Act was interpreted to provide broad protection from arbitrary discrimination by business owners. Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were.


So just because a business is privately owned doesn't mean the owners can discriminate against their customers willy nilly. "place of public accommodation"
edit on 25-5-2012 by MegaMind because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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never mind

edit on 25-5-2012 by Starchildren because: deleting



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by MegaMind
So the mall is privately owned and therefore they have a right to ask her to leave ...

does this mean they could also ask ...

... women with children under 5 to leave?

... people with a BMI over 20 to leave?

... people over 35 to leave?

... people that are Black, White or Hispanic to leave?

... girls with tattoos showing just above their rear to leave?

How do YOU determine who can be discriminated against?


This is why I brought up the distinction earlier between private, public, and semi-public/private. Sure, a dance club can pick and choose who they let in the front door. They can pick hip, young, thin people out of the line and invite them in, but a mall can't do that. A golf club can be male only, but a mall can't. A restaurant can say no children, but a mall can't. Neither can a theatre.

Malls are not usually dealt with as a private entity. Some malls are constructed using public funds. Some malls deed specific duties or property rights back to the city. Sometimes courts just find that the common areas of a mall are too important to have private property rights.

So, the mall has the right to say now face coverings, but she also has the right to appeal it to the courts. Since some cities have ordinances against face coverings, she will probably lose. I personally think one should be able to cover their faces, but not on driver's license photos or other ID's, and I think they should be willing to show their face briefly for identification purposes if asked, but my opinion isn't really important, it is for the courts to decide.



BTW does a bank robber not wear a mask, hat or sunglasses into a bank because its against policy?

Does wearing a hat and sunglasses in a bank suddenly make you want to rob the bank?

You know I could go into a bank armed to the teeth and I still wouldn't rob it ... think about it.


Good point! It isn't the hat and glasses that make you rob the bank, and since robbing a bank is already illegal, then making a rule against the hat and sunglasses isn't really going to deter the bank robber. It might provide a split second of early warning, but not enough to matter.

As for being armed to the teeth. I have to admit, I once sat with my gun under my arm, a beautiful Springfield 1911, very accurate and smooth shooting, and it was about 5 a.m., and some stupid armored truck guys sat down a satchel full of cash, and opened the door to the ATM. I knew from experience the satchel had about $100k, and the ATM had about the same, and then one knelt down with his back to me, and put his head down to do some work, and the other one turned his back and walked away. Me sitting there, armed, within 50 feet of them both, and $200k for the taking. WOW! It crossed my mind! I was getting on a plane heading for vegas at 7 a.m., and I would be out of town for more than a week. I was there to get cash out of the ATM before I headed to the airport. What a perfect situation for a robbery. Of course, I didn't shoot anyone, but some crimes really are just crimes of opportunity. I didn't go there to rob anyone, but they certainly made it very, very easy for me if I had wanted to!



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:24 AM
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Clothes primarily serve to pacify the prudes and hide our sexuality, and secondarily serve as a form of self expression. They advertise who you are and what you stand for before you ever open your mouth.


im afraid ill have to correct you, lol! this is what clothes has been MADE INTO. personally, im wearing completely neutral clothes (1 color, no marks, no brands), for several reason, including the FACT, that clothes are for keeping us warm, NOT for proving your status or anything else, as you (and most of the rest of the world), seem to think.


Clothes are not necessarily important, but if someone chooses to wear a specific style of clothing that sends a message such as a religious preference or a biker attitude, then so be it.


i agree. but it just DOES NOT change the facts
also, i'd like to see you walk around in frosty/snowy weather, with clothes PAINTED on you, and you dragging a big ass heater around with you. should be enough, since clothes are not for keeping us warm, right ?
oh, and how would you power this heater, when dragging it around? i could come up with a couple of places you could keep some batteries, in case you can pull ur head out from there



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by marg6043
 


I totally agree. It's the same in Canada. They flee their country because of all the oppression and war. They come to our countries and and bring the very customs which propagated the life style they were running away from.


Because all of these women are running away from wearing a veil?

You realize there are religions in the U.S. where a woman wears a head covering, right?

www.prayercoverings.com...



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:29 AM
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reply to post by Migah
 


OK, 'Coats" are for keeping you warm. I've gone plenty of places, in freezing weather, freezing rain, and I didn't bring a coat, because I was just running from the house to the car, car to the next building, etc. If I had to walk everywhere, then maybe I'd want some warm clothes.

On the subject of your "neutral" clothes, don't you think that is making a statement as well? People look at your neutral clothes, and they make a judgement or generalization of you even before you speak. You know this in advance, and you choose to dress that way. You might think you are staying neutral, but you are also advertising your intent to stay neutral. You can't avoid people's stereotyping or snap judgements. People are just animals, and we constantly evaluate everyone and everything as friend or foe. We are hard-wired to stereotype you based on appearance, and then we may adjust our perception as we get to know more about you, but the clothes are advertising your personality whether you like it or not.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by exroyalnavy
reply to post by Flint2011
 


It is NOT against her Faith at all, but a cultural choice. It is her (or her husband's) way of saying that although they live in the West they want no part of our Society.


The Amish live in this country too, and they have segregated themselves purposefully and everyone knows that they do not want part of our society either, and that's OK.

So tired of people freaking out over Muslims, when 9/11 was an inside job anyway. TPTB have done a bang up job of making US citizens terrified and threatened of Muslims.



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