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Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

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posted on May, 25 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by draco49
 

Other religions do not promote dominance and death as the will of God and men of said religion to be more loved by god than others.
Dig deeper.


Wrong again buddy. Catholics believe that the only way to reach God and Heaven is by going through the dogmatic rituals of baptism, communion, confirmation, confession, and penitence. Everyone else goes to hell.

Born-Again Christians believe that the only way to reach God and Heaven is by surrendering yourself to Jesus Christ and being "saved". All others go to hell.

Mormons believe that the only way to reach God and heaven is to follow the seemingly-bizarre dogmatic rituals described in the Book of Mormon, and by continual tithing to the church. All others go to hell.

Puritans believe that the only way to reach God and heaven is by living a life of misery and abstinence from all human instincts. They're so messed up that their core belief dictates that they can never suffer enough, and should expect to go to hell, along with everyone else.

Judaism says that the only way to reach God and Heaven is by living, what they consider, a "righteous" life so you can be reincarnated over and over until the Messiah deems your soul "ready" to progress to a higher plane. If you live a wicked life (eg. you get a tattoo), your soul is simply destroyed, or you you'll be haunted by demons of your own making for eternity.

I could go on, but the point is that every religion is founded on the premise that the only way to God is their way, and everyone else goes to hell, or is destroyed.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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You speak of the other religions in what is taught in the spiritual death.
As opposed to Islam when you are administered physical death by commandment of God
That’s the difference
If you leave the religion, the penalty is physical death.
Sorry to go astray



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by redneck13
Its private property, not public. The owners of the property are also protected under the constitution and they have rights. Anyone that cannot get in with a burka has the option to shop some place else. The man does not have to change his business practices if he chooses not to. Would that be denying the storeowner his rights under the constitution? She has the right to start a store that you cannot get in the door without a burka if she chooses. Don’t force people to do things they don’t want to do, FREEDOM


More faulty logic. The law says that service cannot be refused based on a persons religion or choice of clothing. An individual can be banned if the owner has a specific issue with that individual, but that's it. Privately owned stores are not allowed to refuse service to someone based on their skin color, ethnicity, sexual preference, religious beliefs, disability, or choice of clothing, You can deny and denounce all you want, but the fact remains that it's the law. Look it up if you want, even though it's been posted to this thread twice now by two different people.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by redneck13
You speak of the other religions in what is taught in the spiritual death.
As opposed to Islam when you are administered physical death by commandment of God
That’s the difference
If you leave the religion, the penalty is physical death.
Sorry to go astray


It's apparent that you've never read the Qur'an or had any meaningful conversations with Muslims or an Imam. What you are speaking about is the twisted interpretation of a particularly fanatical and tiny sect of Islam. The majority of Muslims do not carry those beliefs or engage in those practices. Dude, you gotta get out more.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 



Wearing a burqa is equal with human sacrifice?


Never hear of honor killings?

Yeah, they do sacrifice girls for daring to try to escape from the crazy oppressive religion.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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reply to post by lordgrrl
 



Christian men's control in the West is flipped - you must always be exposed! Concealing yourself is blasphemy!


What pure nonsense. The things people say to defend the horrible practice of wearing a burqa is pathetic.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by getreadyalready
 



Wearing a burqa is equal with human sacrifice?


Never hear of honor killings?

Yeah, they do sacrifice girls for daring to try to escape from the crazy oppressive religion.



You're more intelligent than you are letting on in this thread. I know, that you don't think everyone who wears a burqa agrees with honor killings or human sacrifice. I don't know why you are making the arguments you are making, but I have seen you make much better ones.

I don't agree with a lot of the Muslim religion, and I don't agree with a lot of the Christian religion, and I don't agree with a lot of Atheism, and I don't agree with a lot of Luciferianism. I think they all have some good parts and bad parts. Yes, even Luciferianism and Atheism have good parts.. a lot of them actually.

Still, even though I disagree with most organized religions, I still realize the vast majority of people that practice those religions are good people, honorable people, and they shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush we paint the extremists with.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:36 PM
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Originally posted by Hecate666

To me living in a free [sort of] country that has been attacked [apparently] by fundamentalist muslims makes it a tad offensive to wear a full veil thing.
To me personally it says "I don't care about you, I detest the way you live your life, I don't care if you feel uneasy around me, I don't care if you are offended, I don't care and this is my way of life and you are a slut."
Remember that this is what it says to ME!
It is for that reason that I have a RIGHT not to like those veils.

The other reason is that I don't believe for one second [even if they say so] that women enjoy wearing it. I read articles where women meet secretly to do their hair and make up, have their nails done etc.
Most women want to look good, it is what we like [in general]. To put beautiful women under a sack because you have a small d*ck and can't control yourself offends me very much.

It is not that I care if someone puts a scarf over their face, it is what it stands for that pi**es me off and rightly so.




You have every right not to like anything you choose..what you don't have is the right to remove other peoples rights in the process of upholding your own...in fact you have the RESPONSIBILITY concurrent with your exercise of rights to uphold the rights of others if you expect yours to be upheld by them..

I have many girlfriends who wear full niqab...and LOVE it..its a symbol of their faith and commitment to GOD it has nothing to do with men or politics for them. A woman, just as she has the right to wear a bikini anytime without being raped or harassed, has the right to cover her body and face anytime she likes..I really don't comprehend how people think they have the right to keep choosing for individuals what they will wear! I find that a gross imposition on human rights.

I feel, where choice exists to wear or not to wear, then it IS the woman's business and NONE OF ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS.

I have gone out veiled several times by choice - I like my hair not being wind knotted..and once I went with some ladies in full niqab in a social experiment and its amazing the crap these ladies get even from 'regular joes' who are so fear ridden and bigoted they have no idea the impact and cost to their own selves of carrying such misguided hatred inside them..how 'sold to propoganda' they really are.

I found the niqab very liberating..it was strange..and yes..it was a feeling of withholding something of my private self from society..and I LIKED THAT feeling...I enjoyed the self possession I experienced..it wasn't a feeling against society..but a liberation from it!
It was certainly a sensation of claiming back a bit of myself from a society that takes without permission. For me it was an empowering experience despite the crap from others. I choose celibacy and sobriety too..'crazy choices' in this day and age but I do so as a lifestyle choice..and had the same feeling making those choices as I did wearing the niqab..it was an anti-sheeple type experience...same sense of claiming back ME from 'the world'...its not about *you*.

If a woman exercising choice offends..ppl can go jump..we've done that been there before...no need to revisit why women have as much right to choice as anyone else...and just as I don't have to stop choosing and being me for others..and nor does this woman have to cow tow to what others think or would demand of her. You don't own her..she isn't a slave..good on her!

I have rallied with women who don't wish to wear veils..and stood beside those who do..its the women themselves that are important..and if they choose to veil..I choose to respect and get over any crap or fear I might have...a respect..for them and myself as denying ignorance starts at home for me.

What you do and why..I suppose in the end..is entirely up to you.but none of us have the 'right' to harm or harass others simply because of our personal politics, dislikes or our fears. There is no such thing as a 'right' not to be offended...offense happens...and if you are..then that's your offense and your problem to face and get over..you can't immaturely expect the inhabitants of the universe to change to suit you or to appease your every fear or whim. People think differently to you..that's not a bad thing..in fact one day you might even be grateful for just that.



Ro





edit on 25-5-2012 by Rosha because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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fullcomment.nationalpost.co... m/2011/04/14/todays-letters-the-burka-%E2%80%94-part-of-our-national-fabric/

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Re: France’s Wardrobe-Policy Malfunction, George Jonas, April 13.
To compare gangland clothing to the burka is disingenuous. No father requires that his daughter wear gangland clothing. The burka is not a choice. As Ayaan Hirsi Ali tells us, Muslim women wearing the burka have learned to completely subdue their will. We cannot ask these women to try to free themselves. To go against their families can mean death.
We can help these women by passing a law that bans burkas in public, despite what the men in her family think. Such a law would uphold freedom. To tolerate burkas is to tolerate oppression of women.
Janey Crowe, Surrey, B.C.

Why make face covering a religious debate? The real issue is public safety and the right of people to know who that are dealing with. Could I scream discrimination if a realtor refuses show me around a house because my face is obscured behind a Darth Vader mask? Should I be served at a bank wearing a full-face balaclava? Should I drive with my peripheral vision blocked and my identity unverifiable? If there is to be any law on this issue, it should be to grant individuals and the state the right to refuse service, employment, privilege, entry or certain legal recourse to any person who deliberately obscures their face, and to do so without being guilty of discrimination.
Human beings are hardwired from birth to respond to faces. Society and law enforcement work in large part because we are identifiable individuals. So by all means, allow individuals their anonymity behind masks, niqabs or burkas. But also allow the rest of us to refuse to deal with them.
Alastair Gordon, Toronto.

edit on 25-5-2012 by redneck13 because: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[/editb y] extra DIV



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by redneck13
 


In Australia at least..and with the many many women I speak to..the Burka and Niqab IS a choice...so this article is presumptive and the worst kind of social profiling..not 'fact' for all Muslim women everywhere...see Malaysia for example....millions of Muslim women..not wearing veils..

Generalisations are violations when it comes to upholding political bigotry and racist dogma.


Can you people not see the specious reasoning in the fact that by telling a woman she CANT wear the niqab or the burka or denigrating her right to choose to..you are just trading one person/group telling the woman what she can and cant wear for another group of people?

This would make YOU the oppressor as much as any martial law or code of religion or culture.

This isn't about this individual woman's rights at all.....this is about fear.

Even if everything you fear is true, and many of these women are being held to Niqab via Shaira Law edict on wearing it everywhere..can you not see that by harassing her..denying her right to wear it..you are only dooming her and her children, to a life lived in fear, in solitude, in her lounge room? So even if you have them, your 'good intentions' can have drastic consequences for the day to day life of this person.


Ro
edit on 25-5-2012 by Rosha because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by Rosha
reply to post by redneck13
 


In Australia at least..and with the many many women I speak to..the Burka and Niqab IS a choice...so this article is presumptive and the worst kind of social profiling..not 'fact' for all Muslim women everywhere...see Malaysia for example....millions of Muslim women..not wearing veils..

Generalisations are violations when it comes to upholding political bigotry and racist dogma.


Can you people not see the specious reasoning in the fact that by telling a woman she CANT wear the niqab or the burka or denigrating her right to choose to..you are just trading one person/group telling the woman what she can and cant wear for another group of people?

This isn't about this individual woman's rights at all.....this is about fear.




Ro


edit on 25-5-2012 by Rosha because: (no reason given)


The issue of the thread is wearing a veil
Not the fact she did not wear one
It is the right of the woman.
The owner of the property also has rights
Everybody has rights here

edit on 25-5-2012 by redneck13 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by redneck13

The issue of the thread is wearing a veil
Not the fact she did not wear one
It is the right of the woman.
The owner of the property also has rights
Everybody has rights here

edit on 25-5-2012 by redneck13 because: (no reason given)






Then show me the local law..the constitutional amendment, or any other legal document that supports harassment of women in niqab, and so, supports violations of the right to freedom of clothing style or dress code.

Show me the sign on the mall door that says WOMEN IN HIJAB OR BURKA OR NIQAB ARE NOT PERMITTED HERE"

Show me that!

Until you can do that..you're just a bigot...supporting a bigger bigot.

imo of course.

Ro
edit on 25-5-2012 by Rosha because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think the odds are too high that anyone who forces their women to dress in a burqa teaches their sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress in a burqa. I don't want them around, and I think I have good reason.

To me, the burqa is a sign of extremism, and disrespect for my culture, and a good sign that the families that dress in this way have nothing but contempt for me.

I think every girl killed for adopting Western ways is a sacrificial killing to keep all the other women in line.

I have thought the issue through, and I honesty think the burqa should be banned for the same reason public nudity should not be allowed. In fact, I think public nudity is not nearly as bad as the burqa.

What justifiable reason should any woman wear a burqa in a Western nation?

I don't see it at all as an expression of religious freedom, not a religious belief that we should respect or allow.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by redneck13
The issue of the thread is wearing a veil
Not the fact she did not wear one
It is the right of the woman.
The owner of the property also has right
Everybody has rights here


Why are you continuing to spew the same talking points over and over again without acknowledging the actual point of this thread? The topic of this thread is an American Muslim woman, in America, who was disrespected (intentionally or otherwise) by a mall security guard on the basis of her religious attire. It's not about whether burqas are good or bad, and it's not about the evil Islamic empire. The truth is, you have nothing to say. Your idea that a store can refuse service to someone based on them wearing their traditional religious attire has been shot down several times by the fact of the law. Rather than acknowledge that, you just continue saying the same thing over and over, never actually addressing the issue. Instead, clouding the issue by introducing irrelevant information in an attempt to create a distraction so you don't have to admit that you have nothing to say. Your exhibited intellect is beneath me, and I won't entertain your rhetoric any more than I'd continue a conversation with a mosquito. If you do figure out a way to contribute to the actual topic of the thread, I'll look forward to reading your comments.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think the odds are too high that anyone who forces their women to dress in a burqa teaches their sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress in a burqa. I don't want them around, and I think I have good reason.

To me, the burqa is a sign of extremism, and disrespect for my culture, and a good sign that the families that dress in this way have nothing but contempt for me.

I think every girl killed for adopting Western ways is a sacrificial killing to keep all the other women in line.

I have thought the issue through, and I honesty think the burqa should be banned for the same reason public nudity should not be allowed. In fact, I think public nudity is not nearly as bad as the burqa.

What justifiable reason should any woman wear a burqa in a Western nation?

I don't see it at all as an expression of religious freedom, not a religious belief that we should respect or allow.




Hmmmm...so public KKK cross burnings and Nazi group rallies are ' ok'...but a woman exercising her right to choose her style of dress..isn't? That's some spectacular specious reasoning again...and so much for supposed freedom.

Your personal dislikes should have no bearing on this woman's right to choose which is protected by law....as her right to choose her garment ought to have no bearing on your right to wear jeans and discard common sense.

By this view, it's not a free and open society your supporting...and I do have to wonder what form of society you are.

One people one law...except for...hijab wearers.

ok.

As you say..its your country...do what you like..just know its also your hypocrisy, your self deceit, your paradox to deal with as well.


I'll just respect her.



Ro



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 



I have thought the issue through, and I honesty think the burqa should be banned for the same reason public nudity should not be allowed. In fact, I think public nudity is not nearly as bad as the burqa.

What justifiable reason should any woman wear a burqa in a Western nation?

I don't see it at all as an expression of religious freedom, not a religious belief that we should respect or allow.


I will give you this much. I think the burqa is somewhat sexy!
If they are wearing it to keep men from being attracted to them, then it doesn't work. The eyes are alluring, the the swishy flow of the robe can be alluring. Sometimes there is enough skin showing to tell that they have a creamy olive complexion. PLUS, there is that challenge factor that some men just have to have something that is off limits.

So, I agree with you, any justifiable reason for wearing one in a Western nation is undone by the very sexually depraved culture they are trying to avoid.


I disagree that they are always a sign of oppression, because I have known Iranian girls that went to school here in the Chemical Engineering department (another thread entirely), and they were far from home, no chance of anyone telling on them, and they still wore the hoodies, but not the veils. They were also highly educated and intelligent and attractive. There was no evidence whatsoever of them being oppressed, and in fact, they were quite arrogant about their country and their culture, very empowered.

I also just don't see how it can be offensive, unless it is your own daughter or sister. You can disagree with it, but being offended by it seems useless unless you are personally victimized by it in some way. I'm highly disturbed by those Sarah Mclachlan commercials, and starving African kid commercials, and police abuse videos, etc, etc. If I were going to waste precious mental energy being offended by all the atrocities and needless abuses that occur around the world, then I wouldn't have any mental ability left to run my own life. It just seems silly to be offended by something that someone else does to someone else that doesn't affect you directly.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I think the odds are too high that anyone who forces their women to dress in a burqa teaches their sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress in a burqa. I don't want them around, and I think I have good reason.

To me, the burqa is a sign of extremism, and disrespect for my culture, and a good sign that the families that dress in this way have nothing but contempt for me.

I think every girl killed for adopting Western ways is a sacrificial killing to keep all the other women in line.

I have thought the issue through, and I honesty think the burqa should be banned for the same reason public nudity should not be allowed. In fact, I think public nudity is not nearly as bad as the burqa.

What justifiable reason should any woman wear a burqa in a Western nation?

I don't see it at all as an expression of religious freedom, not a religious belief that we should respect or allow.



It's apparent that you are an intelligent person by your writing style. And I respect your right to your opinion, as I hope you would respect mine. I think we both agree that forcing someone to wear something they do not want is morally wrong, as it removes that person's right to choose how they live and present themselves.

Where we part ways is in your belief that you or anyone else has the right to tell someone else what is or is not a valid expression of faith. Religion and faith knows no physical boundaries, so your argument that women shouldn't wear burqas in a Western nation is irrelevant. Neither you nor I have the power to dictate the lifestyle or religious practices of another. Period. That line of thinking is in direct conflict with the Constitution, and the ideals this nation was founded on. Regardless of how you feel about it personally, you don't have the power to override the Constitution. And if you are truly a patriotic American, that should never be your desire.



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:29 PM
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Yes I was just on my way out when rosha started the name calling not unusual when people can’t grasp the meaning of what you are trying to say.
The article supposedly in question states it should be up to the merchant and after some time it would be hoped, that the burka would be forgotten.
It is a symbol of the oppression of woman.
Here is another interesting in-depth article.

www.meforum.org...



posted on May, 25 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by draco49

Originally posted by Orderamongchaos
Freedom of Religion must always bend to the safety of the general public.


Umm, no. The Supreme Court ruled that religious freedom is absolute, with the exception of practices that are illegal, or pose a probable risk of harm to a 3rd party. Wearing an article of clothing does not meet that burden.
thank you thank you thank you for this reply. i understand what the safety issue thing is, but that statement does not apply in this situation. very well put.




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