Christians!!!…Why do you base your beliefs, theology and doctrines, around the “Book of Revelati

reply to post by AshleyD

Originally posted by AshelyD
That's awfully loose evidence to be honest.

For instance, the phrase 'Word of God' is pretty generic and found throughout the Bible. Nothing about it makes it unique to Gnostic texts.

I will admit, it sounds pretty loose, in the context of, for example, someone hearing the word of God, and then coming to believe in Jesus etc. But the way the phrase has been used in some Gnostic texts, it has been used to describe Jesus himself, that’s the key difference, and the only other place that happens, is in the “Book of Revelations”. So there’s an instant, correlation right there!

Originally posted by AshelyD
Evidence of the phrase 'Word of God' in the Bible.

As to the reference of the incredible creatures in heaven/around the throne. The same is found in the Old Testament, specifically in Ezekiel. And that certainly is not a Gnostic text.

Example:

I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like topaz. 10 As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 11 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went. 12 Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels. 13 I heard the wheels being called “the whirling wheels.” 14 Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a human being, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

This is just the thing, working out the correlations between the OT, Jesus words, and, the “Book of Revelations”, is fine, and I have nothing against it, but when there are other texts out there, which also show correlations, but which are largely ignored in the context of forming Christian theology, just because they are classified as heretical, seems just crazy IMO. And yet at the same time, the “Book of Revelations”, itself shows clear signs and similarities, with other said books.

Originally posted by AshelyD
So those correlations are pretty loose and not specifically Gnostic.

Well, the examples I cited, are all taken from Gnostic and Christian Gnostic works, so maybe your just disputing the connections themselves. But the thing is, there are like tons of other connections I could site. The key question is… why doesn’t Christianity take these other texts and similarities seriously, when trying to decipher the “Book of Revelations”, and then incorporate that into Christian theology… and the simple reason is, because they are all classified as Heretical.

Originally posted by AshelyD
The Book of Revelation is definitely 'trippy' for those who are not familiar with the apocalyptic imagery used. But it is all based off of OT references and idioms. I don't see how it would be Gnostic. Once the symbolism is researched, it is extremely fascinating.

But the Gnostics read, and had access to the books from the OT as well… it’s not a one way street!

You’re kind of saying, there are connections with the OT, which I agree with BTW, but then your also denying the possible connections from other Gnostic/Christian books with the “Book of Revelations”.

The reason why I’m asking Christians the question in my OP, is because it seems to me like the whole of Christianity, is doing the exact same thing. i.e. ignoring the similarities and not allowing it to have any impact on deciphering the “Book of Revelations”, and then in turn maybe allowing it to have some kind possible impact on shaping/understanding, Christian theology.


- JC

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

Originally posted by wearewacthingyouman
The stuff you posted in no way helped me to interpret anything in Revelation. Could you please explain, specifically, how one would use the gnostic texts to interpret Revelation. I'm very much open to the idea, but your evidence is lacking right now. Thanks

Thanks for your reply…

Perhaps I can used it to help clarify a few things, not mentioned in my OP…

This thread is not about using the Gnostic texts to decipher the “Book of Revelations” on it’s own, because that would take me like forever lol to work out, and demonstrate.


But what I am trying to point out, is that there are clear and definite similarities within many Christian Gnostic texts, and the “Book of Revelations.” What I am suggesting, is that this should in all likely hood have a direct knock on effect in, not only the decoding of the “Book of Revelations” but also on impacting, to some degree, on the theology of Christianity itself.


So this is why I’m asking Christians the question in my OP, as to why they only base their theology on the OT and Jesus words, in connection to the “Book of Revelations”, When it’s pretty clear to me, that there also exists many other similarities, within other Christian Gnostic texts, and the “Book of Revelations”.


- JC

reply to post by Keeper of Kheb

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
I agree with Ashley. explain? also you ever read the book of daniel? Ezekiel? Isaiah? Psalms? Zachariah? Matthew,mark,luke,john? Epistles?? they ALL talk about End days.

Yes, I’ve read Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Psalms, and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and the Epistles. But I haven’t read Zachariah yet, so I’m adding that to my to do list.

I absolutely agree that all the above, help to shed some light on the “end times” and with it Christian theology. But when you have other books, which clearly IMO show correlations, then I have to also take them into account.

The question I am asking, is why aren’t Christians doing the same thing… In some ways I think I already know the answer to that question, but I’m interested in hearing their opinions on it. Of course, if know one agrees that there are similarities, and everyone thinks that the “Book of revelations” does not show any connection at all, to various Christian Gnostic texts, then they are simply not going to even attempt, to answer the question.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft

I will admit, it sounds pretty loose, in the context of, for example, someone hearing the word of God, and then coming to believe in Jesus etc. But the way the phrase has been used in some Gnostic texts, it has been used to describe Jesus himself, that’s the key difference, and the only other place that happens, is in the “Book of Revelations”. So there’s an instant, correlation right there!

John 1:14

14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Here are few more correlations, between various Gnostic/Christian texts and the “Book of Revelations”…for those who still doubt, that there are no similarities…

I’m literally, (no pun intended) spoilt for choice, as there are so many examples and similarities, that I could site…that I just don’t even know where to even begin…

I’m going to site this one below again, because it’s pretty straight forward and easy to see…

From the “On the Origin of the World”

And before his mansion he created a throne, which was huge and was upon a four-faced chariot called "Cherubin". Now the Cherubin has eight shapes per each of the four corners, lion forms and calf forms and human forms and eagle forms, so that all the forms amount to sixty-four forms - and seven archangels that stand before it; he is the eighth, and has authority.

From the book of “Revelations”

Revelation 4:7-8
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:

Next…

Just like in the “Book of Revelations”, many other Gnostic texts, mention the mystical “tree of life” and how it will one day re-emerge, and where it will be located.

From the “On the Origin of the World”

And the tree of eternal life is as it appeared by God's will, to the north of Paradise, so that it might make eternal the souls of the pure, who shall come forth from the modelled forms of poverty at the consummation of the age

Revelations 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Next…

Below is an interview highlight, from Elaime Pagels…talking about her new book…

On other books of revelation, now known as the Gnostic Gospels

"One of the surprises that I found when I started to work on the Book of Revelation is that there is not only one. That is, most people think there is one Book of Revelation because there's only one in the canon, but I discovered that this was one of an outpouring that Jews were writing; Greeks who followed the Greek gods were writing many books of revelation. The Book of Ezra, for example, is another revelation written by a Jewish prophet — not a follower of Jesus — but very similar to John's in many ways and very grieved about the Roman Empire and concerned about the question of God's justice."

“Book Of Revelation: 'Visions, Prophecy And Politics'

The point being, that there are many other such Apocalyptic Texts (shown below),…which all share similar motifs, symbolisms, ideologies and key phrases, which are also used, in the “Book of Revelations”

Other Apocalyptic Texts are as follows…
“The first Apocalypse of James”
“The Apocalypse of the Virgin”
“The Second Apocalypse of James”
"The Apocalypse of Adam”

“The Apocalypse of Peter”, which is a vision account of Peter, who speaks with Christ, in spirit, just like John does, in the “Book of Revelations”

“The Apocalypse of Paul”, is another curious text, which deals with visions, and judgment of souls etc…

“The Vision of Paul”, has very similar themes and parallels to that of “Revelations.” As can be seen, from just a few of the examples below…

From The Vision of Paul, verse 38

Lord have pity on us! And I saw the angel38 of penalties putting heavy punishments on them and saying: Acknowledge the Son of God; for this was predicted to you, when the divine Scriptures were read to you, and you did not attend; for which cause God's judgment is just, for your actions have apprehended you and brought you into these penalties. But I sighed and wept, and I asked and said: Who are these men and women who are strangled in fire and pay their penalties?

And From The Vision of Paul, verse 40

And after that I saw men and women clothed with rags full of pitch and fiery sulphur, and dragons were coiled about their necks and shoulders and feet, and angels having fiery horns restrained them and smote them, and closed their nostrils, saying to them: Why did ye not know the time in which it was right to repent and serve God, and did not do it?

And lastly, From The Vision of Paul, verse 42

42. And I looked to the south in the west and I saw there a restless worm and in that place there was gnashing of teeth: moreover the worms were one cubit long, and had two heads, and there I saw men and women in cold and gnashing of teeth.

- JC

reply to post by AdesteFideles

Originally posted by AdesteFideles
While thinkers and Christianity may seem prima facie a contradiction in terms I can assure you there are those of us who accept Jesus fully, but also embrace an openness to "other," as long as that other agrees with the truth set forth by Christ.

Are you among these “others” and if so, what denomination of Christianity, do you belong too? If you don’t mind me asking…

I’ve been reading various Gnostic texts, for over the last four months, and I find that apart from the obvious differences, there was also a lot of agreements in how both groups believed in Jesus. So the impact these other books may have on Theology, and on the "Book of Revelations” doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative one, but so far, they are just regarded, as being outside of Christianity, and are therefore seen as not important etc…


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Well, no one actually knows for sure who wrote the “Book of Revelations”

No, we do know, it was the Apostle John on the island of Patmos a small Greek island in the Aegean Sea in 96 AD.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

No, we do know, it was the Apostle John on the island of Patmos a small Greek island in the Aegean Sea in 96 AD.

That is a conclusion a lot of people come to but it is not based on solid evidence.
The names John and Patmos are in the text, but nothing that should lead one to believe it was the Apostle John.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
No, we do know, it was the Apostle John on the island of Patmos a small Greek island in the Aegean Sea in 96 AD.

Well, no, it’s not entirely accurate, to state that, because the author of “Revelations” refers to himself as John only. And most people at that time, would have probably been aware, of John’s location, so anyone could have claimed to be receiving a vision on the Island of Patmos. According to recent textual analysis and criticisms. there are possibly 3 contributors, to the “Book of Revelations”, based on differences in style, and theological input.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Maybe it would help to compare the verses in the book of John against the ones in Revelation.

Amazingly, they seem to share the same message about who Jesus is.

Who is Jesus according to John the Apostle?

carm.org...

reply to post by Joecroft


The Apostle John wrote the books of 1,2,3 John, The gospel "John" and Revelation.

I am not sure what the people arguing about this don't understand about the introduction to the book of Revelation.
The first three verses answers the OP and side discussion going on, non-issue.

Revelation 1: 1-3

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,
2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw.
3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
The Apostle John wrote the books of 1,2,3 John, The gospel "John" and Revelation.

Not exactly, know one even knows who wrote the four Gospel accounts, the names were added to those documents, much later on, sometime around the 2nd Century…

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
I am not sure what the people arguing about this don't understand about the introduction to the book of Revelation.
The first three verses answers the OP and side discussion going on, non-issue.


Revelation 1: 1-3

1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,
2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw.
3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near

Below is the first line from the Christian/Gnostic text, “The Secret Revelation of John”

The teaching of the savior, and the revelation of the mysteries and the things hidden in silence, even these things which he taught John, his disciple.

And…

From the opening lines of the “Vision of Paul the Apostle”

Here Begins the Vision of Saint Paul the Apostle.

"But I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: I know a man in Christ fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or out of the body, I know not, God knoweth) snatched up in this manner to the third heaven: and I know such a man, whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knoweth; how that he was snatched up into Paradise and heard secret words which it is not lawful for men to speak; on behalf of such a one will I glory; but on mine own behalf I will not glory, save in my infirmities."-

Most other Christian/Gnostic texts have similar introductions…unfortunately the beginning paragraphs of “The Acts of John”, which incidentally, is also attributed to John of Patmos, are missing, and presumed lost/destroyed.

Anyway, nice try to make this a non-issue… but the issue is still very much alive, and so far, the question in my OP remains unanswered.


- JC

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Joecroft

 

Maybe it would help to compare the verses in the book of John against the ones in Revelation.

Amazingly, they seem to share the same message about who Jesus is.

Who is Jesus according to John the Apostle?

carm.org...

I actually suggest this same thing...

You might notice that the words of Jesus in John... sound nothing like revelation...

Likely because this is the revelation of John... Not Jesus, dispite what the first few verses say

reply to post by Akragon


Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.

I was saying to compare the words of John in the book of John versus his words in Revelation, not Jesus' words.

This is why we have reason to believe that it was the same John that wrote both books.

Originally posted by Joecroft

I’ve been reading various Gnostic texts, for over the last four months, and I find that apart from the obvious differences, there was also a lot of agreements in how both groups believed in Jesus. So the impact these other books may have on Theology, and on the "Book of Revelations” doesn’t necessarily have to be a negative one, but so far, they are just regarded, as being outside of Christianity, and are therefore seen as not important etc…


- JC

I'm sure all of the texts were compared the same way. Yes, many agree with each other, but I'm sure it's the parts that didn't agree that caused them to be left out. I'm sure that when these texts were all being considered, that they looked for a back up or a second statement from another text to verify it before it was considered. So, some of these texts may have had messages or stories in them that couldn't be verified by other texts.

According to Wikipedia, here are some of the comparisons between Revelation and other existing scripture that may have had more of an impact on it being considered for canonization into the Bible.

Under the section titled, CONTENT:

Using the Greek Septuagint, John makes 348 allusions, or indirect quotes, from 24 canonized books of the Hebrew Bible, predominantly from Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Psalms.[38] The narrative of the terrifying and boastful beast that rises out of the ocean, has many horns which represent kings, and which is thrown into the fire, derives from Daniel 7. The beast from the Book of Revelation combines body traits from all four beasts mentioned in Daniel 7. The description of the angel who gives the revelations derives from Daniel 10:5-6; the four horsemen derive from Zechariah (Zechariah 6:1-8); the lampstands and the two olive trees that represent two men derive from Zechariah 4:1-14; the four living beings derive from Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10; the edible scroll that tastes as sweet as honey derives from Ezekiel 2:8-3:2; the marking of people on the forehead to determine who will be harmed and who will be spared derives from Ezekiel 9:3-6; and the locusts that look like horses and have teeth like those of lions derive from the book of Joel.

en.wikipedia.org...

In fact, for anyone who wants more detailed information on how, what and why certain texts were selected over others, here's a good start on "Biblical Canon":

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Deetermined

Originally posted by Determined
I'm sure all of the texts were compared the same way. Yes, many agree with each other, but I'm sure it's the parts that didn't agree that caused them to be left out.

I think they saw that there were just as many correlations in those Gnostic texts, (especially in the those apocalyptic texts) to verses in Zechariah, Daniel, Ezekiel and the Psalms etc…
But IMO I think their main reason for rejecting them, was based solely on theological grounds…

Originally posted by Determined
I'm sure that when these texts were all being considered, that they looked for a back up or a second statement from another text to verify it before it was considered. So, some of these texts may have had messages or stories in them that couldn't be verified by other texts.

But many of those Christian Gnostics texts do have messages, iconography and connections etc to those OT Books as well. I also don’t deny that, the “Book of Revelations” has end time motifs and connections to various books in the OT. But it just seems to me like the “Book of Revelations” just managed to be squeezed into the bible, because of its lack of direct Gnostic theology.

The reasons I’m asking Christians the question in my OP, is because if the “Book of “Revelations”, is a Christian Gnostic text (which btw I believe it is)…then you essentially have 2 options…

(1) Completely reject the book, and pretend like it shouldn’t even be in the bible, and therefore stop incorporating/building standard Christian theology around it etc…

or…

(2) You accept that it is a Christian Gnostic text, and still try to find the correct interpretations, based around it’s End times theological themes; but in doing that, you would also then have to embrace the idea, of looking into those other Christian Gnostic texts, especially the ones written about apocalypses, and the end times.

I mean, its one thing to say that there are connections, but that it (The Book of “Revelations) is somehow, for some reason, not a Christian Gnostic text, and another to say, that there are absolutely no connections at all, and therefore it’s not a Christian Gnostic text. The former of which, is at least, a slightly more reasonably approach.

Especially when the connections/symbolisms to “Revelations”, in those various Christian Gnostic texts, are so clear, and aren’t found in any other works, other than a few prophetic books from the OT.


- JC

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.

I was saying to compare the words of John in the book of John versus his words in Revelation, not Jesus' words.

This is why we have reason to believe that it was the same John that wrote both books.

edit on 24-5-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

I know exactly what you're saying...

I was saying something similar, but with different terms...

Compare the two texts.... Its quite obvious this "revelation" was not inspired by Jesus or even dictated

Likely Johns last attempt at imortality in his writing...

IF he only knew

Originally posted by Akragon


Compare the two texts.... Its quite obvious this "revelation" was not inspired by Jesus or even dictated

Likely Johns last attempt at imortality in his writing...

IF he only knew

Can you elaborate for me?

Why do you believe that it's not inspired by Jesus?

reply to post by Deetermined


Sure...

i've studied the bible from back to front... inside and out... but these days i only focus on where His words are located.

The OT is useless... my thread on that issue which dropped off the boards right quick
www.abovetopsecret.com...

IF you read the words that came directly from his mouth... Those words sound/read nothing like revelation...

Jesus had a certain way of speaking... just as anyone else does... that style is not found anywhere else within the bible...

And of course this is assuming the writers of the gospels wrote down what he said word for word...

Revelation... when read sounds nothing like the way Jesus spoke... its a completely different style.

So the conclusions we get from this are... Either John wrote down his own words in Revelation... and attributed them to Jesus...

OR

Jesus came to john... and changed his way of speaking...

Which is more likely?

reply to post by Akragon



Your Avatar looks real familiar lol


Cracks me up, every time I see it…

Originally posted by Akragon
Jesus had a certain way of speaking... just as anyone else does... that style is not found anywhere else within the bible...

And of course this is assuming the writers of the gospels wrote down what he said word for word...

Revelation... when read sounds nothing like the way Jesus spoke... its a completely different style.

When you say it had a different style, I assume you don’t mean because of all the general chaos, destruction and mayhem going on lol and something more to do with the contextual style, of how Jesus would speak?


And if that’s the case, do you have any examples, of why you feel it couldn’t be Jesus speaking, in “Revelations”, from a textual perspective?


And now that I’m on the subject, what are your thoughts about Jesus speaking through some of the Gnostic texts, like for example “The secret book of John” and “The Acts of John”?


- JC