Discourse with a Christian Theologian

I would like to begin this thread by saying that this conversation was between myself, and my Brother-In-Law.
I was raised in the Christian Church, my Grandfather was a well respected preacher who "saved" many souls.
My Sister is married to a man who has a Master's Degree in Theology and is the pastor of a thriving church. He also went to Seminary and has written several books on I forget what but he is as Christian as they come. God Bless Him. He truly believes what he preaches, and he fears for his Sister-In-Law's (me) soul.
I am a seeker and tho I was raised as a Christian, I have always had issues with it as you will see.
The following is an excerpt of a conversation we had online recently.
I look forward to the comments.

ME:
meh...the Universe is conspiring FOR me...but thats a very nice thing for you to say!
I need to do my "Manifestation" prayer...I havent done it for awhile...it's time. Then all I want will begin to fall into place for me
but I need to be clear what I want first
just call me Jabez, lol

Him
Ok "jabez": Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things (the things you truly need) will be given to you. That is the true source of power: you don't possess that kind of power (to manifest...whatever) and the universe doesn't possess that kind of power either. Both you and the universe were created by God, however, and HE does possess that kind of power...if you will seek him.....

Me
hmm, well then I guess I have been accepted by the kingdom, because I have been granted the ability to put forth my needs (and desires) and if they are aligned with my purpose, I am blessed and they are granted. I have experienced this numerous times in the past when faced with a crossroads such as I am facing right now, and I have never been denied. Just my experience...
I feel that I dont have to seek GOD because GOD is with me. I know him...

or her
lol

In my knowing, GOD is neither. The duality (is that the term I'm trying to convey?) of "him" or "her" is beneath the GOD of my knowing
how 'bout them Lakers?! I think maybe they can go all the way!


Him:
There are so many things i'd like to say to you. I am speaking about the God revealed in the Bible and you are speaking about the "god" that you have created. The God revealed in the Bible is a relational God and the descriptive language (i.e. He, Father, etc.) is not intended to limit or box God in, but rather to help humans better understand some of God's attributes.
btw...do you think God is on the Laker's side?
lol

Me
doubt it...dem is HEATHENS< I say...

Him
you may be right...they may be heathen.
i feel a song coming on...

Me
and if the GOD I know is simply a GOD I created than I must say, I am a very creative individual with powers of magic and inspiration I never knew I possesed before now!
I am far too humble to begin to think I am that powerful, creative or wise

Him
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV)"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:12-14

Me
I call them "sheeple" They believe everything the news media tells them to believe. they are medicated by" Dancing With the Stars", et al
They will never see it coming unless NBC instructs them when to tune in. MHO, sad to say

Him
I'm not sure who you are talking about in the above post. To follow up w/the 2 scripture quotes above: There are many supernatural beings...some (i.e. Lucifer, the most beautiful of God's created angels) corrupted as noted in the Isaiah quote. Lucifer, btw, was Satan's name (aka "the devil), and he is powerful, cunning and wants to "be like the most High." (God).

Me
Sadly, Mom is an excellent example of this. I hope she doesnt have to see the horrors I feel are coming
I am talking about the ppl that we are surrounded by in our (and most industrialized) society(ies)
I see ppl all the time that are ( IMO) programmed beautifully by our media and their handlers. Lucifer is certainly enjoying great power/ authority and influence in America today
and I feel he is certainly in control of many of the world's gov'ts
interesting times we live in...I feel lucky to be witness to these times
and even more fortunate not to be under the influence of the opium of the mainstream
at least "I" dont think I am...
Glad I dont have TV...
idiot box is right
great sermon fodder...
lol

Him
I agree that he is enjoying great power, etc, but Lucifer/Satan, "the god of this world", doesn't care who/what ANYONE believes in AS LONG AS IT IS NOT THE GOD WHO CREATED ALL THINGS. And that brings it back to your unbiblical perception of God. It's not the "opium of the mainstream" that you need to be concerned about. It's the deception of the god of this world...who has duped the mainstream (who are NOT my sister), but who is also duping you by blinding you to the truth of who God really is. And I care about you too much to not say so.

Me
If you hadnt noticed, I dont worship or even have any relationship with "The god of this world". But to the the GOD who created ALL THINGS, including the god of this world.
I realize your concern and care and fear for my soul... I wish there was some way for me to allay those fears. But you will see me in your heaven, as it would be HELL for you if I werent there

lolol

Him
If your relationship is with the God who created all things, including heaven, than you must surely recognize that God has also established the criteria for "admission" into that heaven, not you, me or anyone else. "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6 ESV)

-continued below-

Me
yes. well. this is where I have a bit of a problem. A sticky point you might say...First of all, the GOD I know doesnt have a "criteria" for admission in the way you state.This concept was "created" by the followers of Jesus. It is a great leap of logic that just because a great inspirer said "THIS is so" ( and most of the GREAT inspirers said something similar, along these lines) makes it so.
It is not that I am a Creationist or believe in Evolution, but in my mind, there is a missing link between man's evolution from ape to man, and there is a missing link between GOD and Jesus.
I believe many things about Jesus, most from the Biblical record, some from other sources... anthropological findings and other texts from the same period from "non christians" (Dont ask for sources as I dont have them at my fingertips atm) The Upanishads spring to mind for some reason...
Point being, I have a hard time putting someone else, even someone as wise and inspired as Jesus, between me and GOD. Particularly when I have personal evidence that I have a healthy, personal relationship with GOD that is shown by ways and means to be a direct relationship with the Almighty, Benevolent Creator of All.
The GOD I have a relationship with, The Father/Creator of ALL does not threaten me with consequences from a lack of my obedience and worship. He inspires me TO worship with the marvels he blesses me with in my own private, personal life.
I have a very hard time with a malevolent GOD that punishes us for our being imperfect, when in fact we are imperfect because we were created that way.
If our creator made us perfect, we would always be perfect. If we were created perfect, Lucifer would have held no influence with us in the Garden.
I believe that Jesus was a righteous and revolutionary man, there is no doubt in mind. I just fail to see why I need an intermediary between myself and my Creator, GOD

end of conversation for reasons unknown...
So let's hear it..

Peace, ELO

I'm not sure of what to make of this thread.

Where is the conspiracy here?

Additionally, what sort of input are you looking for?

Eric

Originally posted by Elostone

ME:
meh...the Universe is conspiring FOR me...but thats a very nice thing for you to say!
I need to do my "Manifestation" prayer...I havent done it for awhile...it's time. Then all I want will begin to fall into place for me
but I need to be clear what I want first
just call me Jabez, lol

Him
Ok "jabez": Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things (the things you truly need) will be given to you. That is the true source of power: you don't possess that kind of power (to manifest...whatever) and the universe doesn't possess that kind of power either. Both you and the universe were created by God, however, and HE does possess that kind of power...if you will seek him.....

He is right in saying seek first the kingdom of God. He misses it when he over looks a couple of spiritual laws God set in motion. These laws got stolen from the Bible, and got put into a lot of occult practices and more recently in motivational speaking. They all call it a big secret, and we will now let you in on it after it has been hidden away for thousands of years.

Proverbs 18:21 "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Matthew 7:7-8 "7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

Now add faith to that:
Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Matthew 17:20 "... for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

He is right, you don't possess the power, God does. You are only doing what God's word says to do without even knowing it. Sometimes I just think it is easier for non-Christians, because Christians get wrapped up in is it the will of God? But God told the rich man to sell every thing he had. Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle (back gate that is small and narrow where a camel would have to be unpacked and crawl on the knees to get through) than it is for a rich man to get into heaven. We get caught up in all of that and loose site of the simple message hiding in plain sight.

Yes, you are right in being specific. I was told that by a prosperity preacher, which many Christians hate, to be specific. God demonstrated it for me. We were almost out of food, and had no way of getting any. I asked God for food. What did I get? Cases and cases and cases of mainly beans. Very few other things. Ok God I'll be specific from now on.

When you loose faith getting tangled up in is this right or wrong? Is this Biblical? Then a lack of faith creeps in. Nothing manifests itself any longer. Until I sorted through everything, and saw other verse as well, and verses where it says God wants to bless us. The manifestations seem to come when I have the most faith, I have been speaking it forth, asking specifically for it, and somehow when most needed. Maybe that is because I wait until the last minute to start asking.

The Secret didn't have it first. Motivational speakers didn't have it first and just decided to enlighten everyone. The Bible said it first.

There is so much truth in the power of life and death is in the tongue. If you keep telling yourself you can't do it, you won't be able to do it. If you keep telling yourself I will be able to do this, one day you will. I have seen people make themselves sick, and seen sick people determined to get better get well much sooner than it should have taken.

Originally posted by Elostone
Me

The GOD I have a relationship with, The Father/Creator of ALL does not threaten me with consequences from a lack of my obedience and worship. He inspires me TO worship with the marvels he blesses me with in my own private, personal life.
I have a very hard time with a malevolent GOD that punishes us for our being imperfect, when in fact we are imperfect because we were created that way.
If our creator made us perfect, we would always be perfect. If we were created perfect, Lucifer would have held no influence with us in the Garden.
I believe that Jesus was a righteous and revolutionary man, there is no doubt in mind. I just fail to see why I need an intermediary between myself and my Creator, GOD

end of conversation for reasons unknown...
So let's hear it..

Peace, ELO

God doesn't punish us for being imperfect. Whether we were created perfect or imperfect, I do not know. All I know is that what He created was good, and He created us with a will. Then we were duped, and sin came into our lives. The punishment was death. To think if we were not duped, and death never entered the world. The Earth would surly be populated with all manner of animals and many more humans than there are today from begining of time to present.

As it stands, sin and death entered. Sin can not be in the presence of God. With our sinful nature, we would forever be seperated from God. In the OT, God instructed us to make a sacerfice from a ram, I believe it was, that had to be perfect with no marks or blemeshes. That ram was a sin offering that covered our sins for a time.

It couldn't last, and God sent the perfect solution. His son. He was the last sacerfice, and all we have to do is accept Jesus' free gift of slavation, as we are no matter what we done.

If you ever been threatened with consequences from a lack of obedience and worsip, it is not of God. It is religion trying to control you. The only thing God warned us about was not accepting His gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Jesus warned us about having unforgiveness towards others. God is not going to come down and punish you because you missed going to church two Sundays in a row like I just did, or didn't do something.

Your brother-in-law is right. The enemy doesn't care about any other gods. In matter of fact he loves the gernic word god, because people can talk about god and it could be any god people worship on Earth. When we get specific, things get heated.

This hate gets so bad the enemy has people around the world using Jesus Christ as a curse word. What other god do people do that with? In matter of fact, it got so prevalent that even Christians use Jesus Christ as a curse word in anger. Example: (Forgive me Jesus)In anger - Jesus Christ, why didn't you tell me that before I did all of this? Stub toe or hit your thumb with a hammer what do you hear people saying more often a swear word, or Jesus' name? Do you ever hear Allah, Budah, or any other god's name used as a swear word?

Out of all the religions, which ones make you work for salvation and earn your way into a good afterlife, and wich one gives to you for free? Yet, that small simple gift is so hard for some to accept as if it is extremely toxic somehow.

reply to post by EricD


I think she is just searching for some answers. She has a lot of questions in the conversation with her brother-in-law. I believe she wants to know what our opinions are on what she already said and what her brother-in-law told her. I don't know if she is looking for someone to back up her beliefs, to help her understand where her brother-in-law is coming from, or something different. She opened it up for people's varying opinions and comments.

I'd stay away from "Theologians". Most of them are indoctrinated with the traditions of men and the doctrine of the elders, and most have no idea about a living day-by-day, personal relationship with the Lord.

I highly recommend, "How Good Is Good Enough?" by Andy Stanley.

It's a small book and a pretty short read, maybe a few hours, however the context of the book is quite pithy. I've read it 3 times over the last few years and each time I read it is like the very first time.

The basic premise is the pretty much universal belief that transcends culture and religion of "good people go to heaven."
The book points out the inherent flaws in that assumption based on several reasons, including the global differences in cultures, beliefs, age & maturity, knowledge & understanding, and how a definitive criteria could even possibly be concluded as to where the line in the sand would be for those who passed and those who failed. It addresses the fallacy of those who failed possibly having failed from being one deed short of earning eternal bliss. Talk about your sh*tty luck, eh?

If God is a perfect and just God, then this belief would not work. The playing field must be even, everyone must have equal criteria for salvation.
God knows we aren't perfect and doesn't expect us to be, and because He is "fair", he leveled the "steps to get you into heaven" to just one.
Forgiveness.

Ironically, even I had to come to terms with the "exclusionary" nature of forgiveness being the only way.
When you sit down and work through it, like Stanley does in this book, you can reach no other legitimate conclusion, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you.
It is what it is.

Maybe the thing to do is to pray to God for truth and understanding on this issue.

From your brother-in-law's point of view as a theologian, here's why he believes that the Bible and Jesus have the final say on who God is.

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh (Jesus Christ), and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 2:23 - 24: 23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Matthew 10:32-33: 32) “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33) But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:8-9: 8) Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9) But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

The reason the Bible puts so much emphasis on Jesus is because it says that Jesus is God/the Word in the flesh. That's why it also says that if you deny one, you're denying the other.

If you overlook that God sent/became Jesus to become man's savior (by dying on the cross for sin), you're overlooking the whole point of the Bible and why God sent/became him in the first place.

Acknowledging that Jesus is God is crucial to Christianity, just as believing that the Bible is God's word.

This is why your brother-in-law points out a difference between your God and the God of the Bible.

If you believe in the Bible or Satan, than you know that Satan has done everything in his power to eliminate Jesus from the whole scenario for a reason. The Bible goes to great lengths to point it out.

Originally posted by Elostone

If our creator made us perfect, we would always be perfect. If we were created perfect, Lucifer would have held no influence with us in the Garden.

This is where it helps to know the Bible.

Lucifer was created in perfection also, yet given free will, just as we were.

God gave everyone, including the angels, free will to decide to follow and worship him, not to force us/them.

Perfection turns to sin when we choose to follow our own free will over God's. When we choose to align our will with God's, we're reconciled back to Him.

maybe you two should audition for dancing with the stars?

The generations from Adam to Moses

Adam - Man
Seth - Appointed
Enosh – Mortal
Kenan – Sorrow
Mahalalel – The blessed God
Jared – Shall come down
Enoch – Teaching
Methuselah – His death shall bring
Lamech – Despairing
Noah – Comfort and rest

Put those name meanings into a complete sentence and you get: Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow, (but) the blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring (the) despairing comfort and rest

John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Denying Jesus is denying the very salvation of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is the Father who gives you the faith and hands you to Jesus.

28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. EVERYONE WHO LISTENS TO THE FATHER AND LEARNS FROM HIM COMES TO ME. John 6:44-45

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER HAS ENABLED HIM.” John 6:64-65

JOHN 6:66
"66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."

Please understand the Chapter and Verse number.