Exposing Freemasons & 33 - Geometry,Astrology, or Devil Worship?

Like I said before, I'm interested in more understanding.. I've been too preoccupied with real life to scour the internet for viable examples of what I felt could be some forms of Masonic 'salvation', as was requested of me. I figure as an outsider I needed to come correct or not come at all.


But I have had some time to think on the salvation discussion, to consider what I think/thought I know and consider what I've read here, as well as some other information picked up along the way.

I now have the understanding (certainly could use a lot more) the essence of Masonic teachings are such that religious salvation simply does not exist, thus Freemasonry cannot and does not involve any kind of transcendent salvation. I'm still not sold it's not an informal religion (I never thought it was a formal religion though), but I stay flexible with an open mind to all information that helps me find my own truths.

Thanks for your time, Masons... I still have more questions if any of you are open for business.

Originally posted by Erbal
I now have the understanding (certainly could use a lot more) the essence of Masonic teachings are such that religious salvation simply does not exist

It's actually quite amazing how little you actually seem to understand.

The essence of Masonic teachings is that Masonry has no position on religious salvation existing or not existing. If a Mason belongs to a religion that believes in religious salvation, that individual Mason may also believe in religious salvation (or he might not believe it, going against the teachings of his church. That's up to him.). If a Mason does not belong to a religion that believes in religious salvation, he might not believe in religious salvation. Or maybe he does, again, that's his individual belief.

Masonry's official stance is "you want to know about salvation? ask your church, if you go to one."

reply to post by JoshNorton


But, what, exactly is your definition of "Sex" Mr. Clinton?

And that's how I feel answering this guy.

reply to post by JoshNorton

So the essence of Freemasonry teachings are literally no more and no different than the official position of Freemasonry? Perhaps it's best for both of us that I walk away now so you no longer feel inclined to patronize me in such a way that can be considered less than truthful.

Originally posted by Erbal
So the essence of Freemasonry teachings are literally no more and no different than the official position of Freemasonry?

Why would they be different? Why would Freemasonry teach anything other than Freemasonry?

Perhaps it's best for both of us that I walk away now so you no longer feel inclined to patronize me in such a way that can be considered less than truthful.

I feel like I must patronize you, because you clearly aren't understanding a single thing we've written here… So don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Erbal
So the essence of Freemasonry teachings are literally no more and no different than the official position of Freemasonry?

Why would they be different? Why would Freemasonry teach anything other than Freemasonry?

Perhaps it's best for both of us that I walk away now so you no longer feel inclined to patronize me in such a way that can be considered less than truthful.

I feel like I must patronize you, because you clearly aren't understanding a single thing we've written here… So don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Either we are not speaking the same language or you are behaving in a way that is less than truthful. (I'm not judging you as a person)

I do thank you for the personal lesson on the subjectivity of virtue.

Originally posted by Erbal
You guys are good. I read your posts and I see a lot of truth mixed with so many manipulated and twisted details that it will take a huge wall of text to address them all. Well, I'm not here to convince anyone that Freemasonry is a religion. Nor do I want to fight over every single detail that is out of place despite how the details are the most important part to our conversation. I was only interested in hearing a Masons perspective as to why Freemasonry is not a religion, specifically because I witnessed several Masons adamantly rejecting the notion it's a religion. I'm a skeptic at heart and I felt that rejection does not hold up to basic scrutiny. It still doesn't, not for me at least.

It seems clear to me you guys are simply towing the line for a multitude of reasons, and KSigMason's closing words are a beacon of light on this truth: the official word of all recognized Grand Lodges globally is that we are not a religion.

Publicly going against the "official word of all recognized Grand Lodges globally" seems,to put it mildly... completely preposterous... for a real Mason. Your worldview simply does not allow you to admit it's a religion like an atheist can't admit the existence of God... it still doesn't make anything true.

i usually take what they say, reverse it--and you get the actual meaning.
im not ALWAYS right

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Erbal

 

I base this off of the fact that each and every recognized Grand Lodge (which is sovereign and independent) says that Freemasonry is not a religion. I also said I base my opinion off of experience and research, but you overlooked that.

has your experience taught you official global policy does or does not have precedent over individual opinions that conflict with official global policy?

Yes. One can have an opinion, but that does not mean their opinion is correct.

In other words, even if you did think it was a religion, would you tell me in this public setting?

Well, as I have sat on my Grand Lodge's Public & Fraternal Relations Committee the last several years, I've sat as Chairman for a couple of Grand Lodge committees, and I have a strong knowledge of what I can or cannot say, I'd say yes, I'd tell you that something doesn't happen in Freemasonry. It's quite obvious that I am willing to talk about it as we have.

Masonry does not practice sacerdotal functions
Masonry does not teach Theology
Masonry does not ordain Clergy
Masonry does not define sin and salvation
Masonry does not perform sacraments
Masonry does not publish or specify a Holy Book
Masonry does not describe or define the Deity

When's the last time you had a Freemason show up at your door trying to convert you?

here is where "religion " needs to be defined.

reply to post by rainbowbear


Religion is a slipper slope. It can be defined in so many different ways. If you simplify it and say it's a tool for worship, then it's very easy to explain, but once you expand on it, we could debate for weeks on weather Freemasonry fit's into that description. Based on the simple answer, no, it does not. We learn about our creator and creation, but we do not worship him unless you consider an opening prayer worship. If that is so, then my dinner table is also a religion. As is most sporting events.

Your turn.

reply to post by network dude


yes nd, you explained my point perfectly in your reply. it is this idea that anything you do--"religiously, i.e.--every day,a philosophy, a way of life " could allow for some members of any group to take something normal or benign, and turn it into something more--a Religion.

because you can not and never will be able to account for another mans conscious(ness). when pike says something similar about not interpreting meanings for another, this resonates true with me.

Does it never occur to some Masons that there MAY be some in the fraternity that will think Lucifer is to be worshiped, or mans intellect? Surely it isnt all of freemasonry, but you see my point.....

reply to post by rainbowbear


We pray to the Grand Architect of the universe. It is explained that this term is to represent God, or the God of your faith. Because we can have many different faiths joined together in harmony, we will not be specific like saying that Jesus is Lord, while a Muslim brother might be right there praying in Allah's name. This being the biggest issue fanatical Christians seem to have with us. If we don't denounce every other religion, and mention Christ at least twice per sentence, then we are blaspheming. It's not discounting any God, it's simply making the name not the focus. So if you are asking if any mason might worship Lucifer or something like that, I'd have to say it's possible. But the God we refer to is the omnipotent creator of all that we see and cannot see. He is the one and only creator. So it's implied that he goes be different names to different people, but he is still the same God. If someone believes Lucifer created everything and is the one and only creator of all, then I suppose that could fit. (although that makes no sense to me in what I know of the word Lucifer)

In my opinion, the Lucifer thing came about with Pike making fun of the same folks that we argue with today misunderstanding the mistake made in translating Lucifer to be Satan or the devil. they don't like being pointed out as wrong then, and apparently they just won't let it go. Anyone who reads that part of M&D will see what Pike was clearly saying. I admit, he is sometimes not so clear, but in that instance, it's crystal. Unless you chop it up and deliberately mislead someone to get your point across. (Again, IMHO)

reply to post by network dude


great reply, i see this happening also (casting of stones) and rabid hypocrisy.

it will all work out in the wash.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


For those who wish to read further into the subject of Masonic symbolism and its origins.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

reply to post by Egyptia

With a site that provides biased, perverted, manipulated, and twisted information? Not really reliable or credible.

reply to post by KSigMason


Then use the information as a basis of further research. You will be amazed at what you find. There is plenty out there especially in the ancient mysteries catagory as well as Blavatsky, Hermes etc I could go on and on and on but you get what I mean.

reply to post by Egyptia


This is the same tired lies that have been thrown around for years. Enjoy them.
I have to go, it's almost time for the sacrifice! We get to eat a small German boy today. (they taste like schnitzel!)

All Hail the Biblical mistranslation of some king! Spread ignorance like butter!

reply to post by Egyptia

Don't get me wrong, I do use a lot of what I read here for personal research. One of my greatest examples is a conversation I had with a guy on the DI forum and he led me to some great research even though he is a anti-Mason.

That is not the first time I've seen that site and those particular pages.