Exposing Freemasons & 33 - Geometry,Astrology, or Devil Worship?

reply to post by Erbal

You could include "ulterior interests" in with any of the 3 categories of harm I mentioned.

I did answer it honestly, but you did not read what you wanted to so you dismiss it as dishonest.

Any person may lose his life for staying true to his word. We're not striving for martyrdom, we just wish to live our lives, but if the situation were to arise, one should always stand for his beliefs even to the end of his life.

I'll be straight, we don't teach that we're in a loop of mortality or that we'll become immortal by going through rebirth (like some Hindu belief). Freemasonry does espouse the immortality of the soul, the spirit of man.

reply to post by KSigMason

Listen, I'm not dismissing anything you guys are willing to say, especially not things I suspect are intentionally misleading (dishonest). And 1 dishonest part doesn't make the whole post, or poster, dishonest.

I didn't mean to imply you guys are martyrs or will become immortal through a rebirth. I'm simply under the impression you are taught there is a celestial grand lodge that you (or your soul if you think that's not "you", perse) will be a part of if, and only if, your mortal life is lived a certain way which is different for each individual. So in essence, you consider the loss of your life to be incredibly positive if you earned a place in the grand lodge in the sky, or whatever it's called, through your life work.

So what I don't understand, among many many other things, is how you guys consider Freemasonry to not be a religion that certainly does not involve religious salvation of any kind. Sure, traditional religions have a universal and clearly defined doctrine complete with requirements for salvation, and this may seem like a promise compared to Freemasonry. That is because Freemasonry has a less clearly defined doctrine that only vaguely teaches a basic structure and path to the requirements for salvation that are unique to each individual person that is between the individual and their God.

Originally posted by Erbal
Are you saying: (1)Salvation is the act, the state, or the source of being protected from risk or harm. (2)Salvation is the deliverance from the penalty of sin.

Both.

Originally posted by Erbal
reply to post by KSigMason

 

Listen, I'm not dismissing anything you guys are willing to say, especially not things I suspect are intentionally misleading (dishonest). And 1 dishonest part doesn't make the whole post, or poster, dishonest.

I didn't mean to imply you guys are martyrs or will become immortal through a rebirth. I'm simply under the impression you are taught there is a celestial grand lodge that you (or your soul if you think that's not "you", perse) will be a part of if, and only if, your mortal life is lived a certain way which is different for each individual. So in essence, you consider the loss of your life to be incredibly positive if you earned a place in the grand lodge in the sky, or whatever it's called, through your life work.

That is what's said, and we HOPE to get there. We HOPE. you seem to get really hung up on words so I want you to think about that for a bit before you answer. Nowhere in freemasonry are we told how to get there, what to do to get there, that we will get there, or that we should get there. Look for the apron lecture. It's one of the most beautiful and moving parts of the first degree.

So what I don't understand, among many many other things, is how you guys consider Freemasonry to not be a religion that certainly does not involve religious salvation of any kind. Sure, traditional religions have a universal and clearly defined doctrine complete with requirements for salvation, and this may seem like a promise compared to Freemasonry. That is because Freemasonry has a less clearly defined doctrine that only vaguely teaches a basic structure and path to the requirements for salvation that are unique to each individual person that is between the individual and their God.

No God is defined, except for the God of your own personal religion. No offer/promise of salvation is given. (see how I made that the same in my opinion? context is everything)

If I sit between a Muslim and a Jewish brother and we say the prayer at the opening of the lodge, who are we praying to? Each person's religion dictates what name is to be given to their creator. Now it's my personal belief that they are all the same guy. But that's not taught, or even implied in freemasonry.

reply to post by Erbal

"Celestial Grand Lodge" is a generic term for each member to apply for his version of the afterlife. For me it is Heaven. Death isn't a negative thing and shouldn't be feared unless you wasted your life with vicious and licentious habits and activities, this is something I believed long before joining Freemasonry. Freemasonry says that one must have the blessing of the God of their individual faith to gain entry into heaven. Freemasonry may be religious, but is in reality closer to being a philosophy than a religion.

Nowhere do we say that by being a Freemason that one will gain entry into heaven. The ideals of Freemasonry are not exclusive to us and I know many non-Masons who live the virtues more than some Freemasons do. There is more to the argument that Freemasonry is not a religion than just the salvation discussion. You may try to interpret our words, but the official word of all recognized Grand Lodges globally is that we are not a religion.

You guys are good. I read your posts and I see a lot of truth mixed with so many manipulated and twisted details that it will take a huge wall of text to address them all. Well, I'm not here to convince anyone that Freemasonry is a religion. Nor do I want to fight over every single detail that is out of place despite how the details are the most important part to our conversation. I was only interested in hearing a Masons perspective as to why Freemasonry is not a religion, specifically because I witnessed several Masons adamantly rejecting the notion it's a religion. I'm a skeptic at heart and I felt that rejection does not hold up to basic scrutiny. It still doesn't, not for me at least.

It seems clear to me you guys are simply towing the line for a multitude of reasons, and KSigMason's closing words are a beacon of light on this truth: the official word of all recognized Grand Lodges globally is that we are not a religion.

Publicly going against the "official word of all recognized Grand Lodges globally" seems,to put it mildly... completely preposterous... for a real Mason. Your worldview simply does not allow you to admit it's a religion like an atheist can't admit the existence of God... it still doesn't make anything true.

reply to post by Erbal


it's obvious you have an agenda. That's great. If you think it's a religion, whatever. Enjoy that.
Have a super day.

reply to post by Erbal

I don't know where the breakdown is, but I think you're over-complicating the situation.

I base my opinion off of official policy and what I've experienced. I may not have been in very long, but I have experienced a lot and have researched a ton. I'm not the most learned of Masons, but I have a good handle on some things.

Originally posted by Erbal
I read your posts and I see a lot of truth mixed with so many manipulated and twisted details that it will take a huge wall of text to address them all.

If you think you need a 'wall of text' to address the rather salient and succinct three sentences I used to address your questions then you came here with some preconceived notions and are not really looking for a intellectual discourse. I do not think I could have answered your questions any clearer or with out undue verbiage.

You have still to address my points that salvation is nowhere involved in Masonry.

reply to post by network dude

Are you implying Masons have no agenda?
What are you implying is my agenda? Truth? Understanding? I'll gladly accept that kind of accusation. If you are implying I have some other agenda, I am interested to hear how that opinion is not baseless conjecture.

reply to post by KSigMason


The breakdown is you telling me you base your opinions off official GLOBAL policy. Yes, you say you also base it on experience. I ask you this: has your experience taught you official global policy does or does not have precedent over individual opinions that conflict with official global policy? In other words, even if you did think it was a religion, would you tell me in this public setting? I would need to hear a compelling reason why you could go against official global policy to validate a perfect strangers opinion... the idea you would or could, while still wishing to remain a good Mason, seems entirely too absurd to consider as a real possibility.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Have you considered I was NOT referring to you when I made the comments you are now responding to? Do you understand I am a single person engaged in a fluid conversation with 3 or more Masons, and my comment about a wall of text came immediately after 2 decent sized posts were made by 2 people who are not you? If you insist I maintain a strict chronological order to the flow of a multifaceted conversation, perhaps it's best you communicate this before attacking me when I fail to meet your standards I am not aware of and have not agreed to.

I'm not sure exactly where you made points to how salvation is nowhere to be found. You told me it's not even discussed. Well, how can I agree or disagree with what you tell me is or is not discussed in a private setting that I am not a witness to? If I simply take your word as gospel, how would that be an intellectual discourse, or even a discussion at all? I've read enough about disclosed Masonic teachings, and keep in mind I do have the ability to spot bias and act accordingly, to know that salvation is found in Masonic teachings, it's simply done differently than all traditional religions I know of. Truths exist regardless of denial or admittance.

I feel the only way to proceed with an intellectual discourse is for Masons to openly and honestly discuss Masonic teachings... I would be lying if I said I expected that to happen. Feel free to surprise me and let the intellectual discourse commence! Or perhaps show an alternative means to that end.

There we have it, a wall of text and I still have not addressed any of the things I originally said would require a wall of text to properly address.

Originally posted by Erbal
Have you considered I was NOT referring to you when I made the comments you are now responding to?

No, because you refered to Masons in general and did not use the quote button or repl button as you should have done (and which you did use in this post).

You told me it's not even discussed. Well, how can I agree or disagree with what you tell me is or is not discussed in a private setting that I am not a witness to?

Masonic ritual has been published for over three hundred years and is available online. Read it and tell me where the salavation occurs.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Thank you for your voice of truth. It does not go unnoticed. And thank you to Friedbabel for bringing this information forward. Knowledge is power.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Have you considered I was NOT referring to you when I made the comments you are now responding to?

No, because you refered to Masons in general and did not use the quote button or repl button as you should have done (and which you did use in this post).

You told me it's not even discussed. Well, how can I agree or disagree with what you tell me is or is not discussed in a private setting that I am not a witness to?

Masonic ritual has been published for over three hundred years and is available online. Read it and tell me where the salavation occurs.

No, I did not refer to Masons in general. Masons in general would extend beyond these forums. When I said "You guys are good. I read your posts..." it clearly indicates I am being vaguely specific and not general. That suggests you can be included, it is not clear you are included. All I'm asking is you don't make assumptions and jump to aggressive conclusions without ever asking for clarification, that's not intelligent discourse and I'm sure you would not appreciate me doing the same to you.

Let me address something: you accused me of ignoring your points made against the existence of salvation within freemasonry as such that I brought preconceived (this word means an opinion before having evidence) notions and I am not here for an intelligent discourse. I responded by saying I feel you didn't necessarily made any points, instead you simply told me of private accounts that I am in no position to confirm nor deny. For clarity sake, I would appreciate an acknowledgment that the state and basis of your accusations has or has not changed... you made a choice to extend the discussion to my personal character with what looks to be from a series of assumptions without any effort to seek clarification you are correct. I feel your choice must be addressed.

I will get back to you with some examples of salvation.

reply to post by Erbal

I base this off of the fact that each and every recognized Grand Lodge (which is sovereign and independent) says that Freemasonry is not a religion. I also said I base my opinion off of experience and research, but you overlooked that.

has your experience taught you official global policy does or does not have precedent over individual opinions that conflict with official global policy?

Yes. One can have an opinion, but that does not mean their opinion is correct.

In other words, even if you did think it was a religion, would you tell me in this public setting?

Well, as I have sat on my Grand Lodge's Public & Fraternal Relations Committee the last several years, I've sat as Chairman for a couple of Grand Lodge committees, and I have a strong knowledge of what I can or cannot say, I'd say yes, I'd tell you that something doesn't happen in Freemasonry. It's quite obvious that I am willing to talk about it as we have.

Masonry does not practice sacerdotal functions
Masonry does not teach Theology
Masonry does not ordain Clergy
Masonry does not define sin and salvation
Masonry does not perform sacraments
Masonry does not publish or specify a Holy Book
Masonry does not describe or define the Deity

When's the last time you had a Freemason show up at your door trying to convert you?

i have always believed our country was founded by the masonic order and and people look at most of buildings store symbols with the stupid pyramid as well

reply to post by superman3478
well what the heck in this twisted world do you all stand for i know that hiram was brother of joseph smith and brigham young is also a masonic member our currency was founded by the masonic order the knights of templar were involved in jesus s death were they not they were involved with pharisees senacharibs and saducees they hated jesus and associated themselves with the rulers of rome so they were accepted protected by them until jesus died and things went crazy from there why is it the flag is an alien flag why in the hell do we put our allegiance and faith and all our trust into cops who are overbearing and take their jobs to seriously

i love how socalled superior upon the heights individuals can sit back and either lie to the many schmuck sided people i know a mason and i know actually some persons from eastern star lodges my grandfather also belonged to one of the lodges and my uncle james johnson yet i never asked why until now i slowly figured it all out your plans for a more perfect union your socalled NWO MOST OF TODAYS PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT ARE OF THE ILLUMINATI US POOR INDIVIDUALS WHO WORK TO SUSTIFY AND STRIVE TO SUCCEED EARN BREAD TO SURVIVE WE ALL GET SHUNNED FOR NOT BEING PERFECT IN YOUR EYES

reply to post by superman3478

It is pretty well documented of which Founders were Freemasons and those who were not.

reply to post by superman3478

One, I'd definitely learn how to use punctuation.

Two, how was our currency founded by the "masonic order"? If you're referring to the Great Seal of the US, it was ultimately designed by Charles Thomson (not a Mason).

Three, the Knights Templar were involved with the death of Christ? Really? That seems kind of impossible as they didn't come into existence until nearly 11-centuries after the Ascension of Christ. I'm curious as to how these Knights of Christ hated Christ when they were warrior monks who named their Order after him and dedicated their life to Christianity.

Four, you really, really need to learn how to use punctuation...well, basic grammar in general as you did not properly capitalize anything nor break up different subjects with either a sentence or paragraph structure.

Fifth, what does Masonry or anything else you have rambled about have to do with a flag, aliens, or cops?

reply to post by superman3478

I'm sure you "know a Mason". Everyone always uses that card, but even if you do? So what? That does not make your points any more valid...or coherent.

Originally posted by Erbal
When I said "You guys are good. I read your posts..." it clearly indicates I am being vaguely specific and not general. That suggests you can be included...

Exactly and hence my comments.

I will get back to you with some examples of salvation.

Sure, I always enjoy when the non-Mason trys to teach me about something they never learned.

Originally posted by Erbal
reply to post by network dude

 

Are you implying Masons have no agenda?
What are you implying is my agenda? Truth? Understanding? I'll gladly accept that kind of accusation. If you are implying I have some other agenda, I am interested to hear how that opinion is not baseless conjecture.

The last time a mason came to your door trying to get you to join, what did he say? Oh, that's right, no mason ever came to your door trying to get you to join. We don't do that. We don't bother anyone who doesn't want to be bothered. It's what we are taught.

As far as your agenda, you will take whatever I say and look for a way to spin it to fit what you already believe. You might work for the MSM. If so, you are very good at your job. But no matter how you try to spin it, masonry is not a religion and no, we don't offer/give/imply/guarantee/hint at giving/ salvation. The afterlife it between you and your God. (In mine there is beer.)