Exposing Freemasons & 33 - Geometry,Astrology, or Devil Worship?

I find what you guys say and don't say very interesting. It's a juggling act of not revealing certain truths without technically lying, all of which is done in a very Clinton-esque manner.

To insist Masonry is not a religion because it does not promise salvation is a weak and petty argument. By that logic, nothing is a religion because no religion I know of promises salvation. A promise is a strong word. Virtually all religions (not all of them) offer salvation but to promise salvation is something entirely different that no religion is guilty of.

So I define salvation without a promise involved and I failed to define every single word used in my definition because I made the poor assumption such lengths would be unnecessary when speaking to men of self-proclaimed integrity and honor. This leaves a disingenuous out for the Mason where all that's needed is to have just 1 unspoken strawman definition for just 1 word in my salvation definition and you can deny salvation exists in Masonry, without technically lying.

I walk away from this conversation sadden by the fact I simply cannot have a forthright conversation with a Mason when I seek no harm, only more understanding. What logical reason do I have to walk into a lodge and ask for membership from a group of men who treat me like a fool simply because I seek more understanding? Perhaps I am a fool after all, a fool who believes truth does not require deception and wordplay. Perhaps it's best I don't pursue membership to Freemasonry when I value truth so dearly.

Originally posted by Erbal
To insist Masonry is not a religion because it does not promise salvation is a weak and petty argument. By that logic, nothing is a religion because no religion I know of promises salvation. A promise is a strong word. Virtually all religions (not all of them) offer salvation but to promise salvation is something entirely different that no religion is guilty of.

Masonry does not even discuss salvation. It is not offered, promised, implied, hinted at, alluded to, etc.

I walk away from this conversation sadden by the fact I simply cannot have a forthright conversation with a Mason when I seek no harm, only more understanding.

If you do not find what I posted to be crystal clear than I do not know what else to tell you at this point.

reply to post by Erbal


I am sorry you feel that way. We don't intentionally hold back information, but there are some things we are obligated not to tell. You can read it all in Duncan's ritual. But as I said before, if you ever have any thoughts of going through the degrees, it's best if you do it with little to no understanding of them. it's how we learn.

but like I said, if you have no thoughts of joining, read the books that spill all the secrets.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Thanks for the reply but understand as of right now I literally have no idea what YOU mean when YOU say salvation.

reply to post by Erbal


You're getting hung up on the word "promise." When first asked, NetworkDude said it doesn't offer salvation. When you pressed him on his own interpretation of salvation, he used the word promise, and you took that and ran.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal

 

I am sorry you feel that way. We don't intentionally hold back information, but there are some things we are obligated not to tell. You can read it all in Duncan's ritual. But as I said before, if you ever have any thoughts of going through the degrees, it's best if you do it with little to no understanding of them. it's how we learn.

but like I said, if you have no thoughts of joining, read the books that spill all the secrets.

I'm not sure I could make it past through the blue lodge... how can I, and why would I or should I, swear to so many uninformed oaths? Would you sign a binding contract without reading it, without knowing the full terms and conditions, all on someones word you won't regret it? If so, stop by my house later, I have some paperwork I'd like you to sign.

I understand there are some things Masons are obligated not to tell but I really hope you have misspoken by saying Masons don't intentionally hold back information. Everyone holds back information when they feel a need for it, what is of consequence is what information, and to what degree, is held back. I would feel more comfortable if I had a reliable way to know when information is held back by choice or obligation, that would be a big step in the right direction for me. I might surprise you with my open-mindedness but I still require reason why a 1-way street of trust is beneficial to me.

Originally posted by Erbal
Thanks for the reply but understand as of right now I literally have no idea what YOU mean when YOU say salvation.

The act, the state or the source of being protected from risk or harm and the deliverance from the penalty of sin.

Does that about cover it?

thats because in Freemasonry you hele--conceal--and never reveal.

its like alice and wonderland but its real.

Originally posted by rainbowbear
thats because in Freemasonry you hele...

What does 'hele' mean?

Originally posted by JoshNorton
reply to post by Erbal

 

You're getting hung up on the word "promise." When first asked, NetworkDude said it doesn't offer salvation. When you pressed him on his own interpretation of salvation, he used the word promise, and you took that and ran.

I disagree with the accuracy of your post. The accuracy of details are critical to the conversation, change the details and you no longer have the same conversation.

NetworkDude wasn't originally asked something, he voluntarily contributed his statement Masonry is not a religion and Masonry does not offer salvation. Later I asked, in general, what are the Hiram Abiff rituals all about and does it involve salvation. NetworkDude replied by saying it gives no salvation, not does it have anything to do with ascension to heaven in the Jesus sense.

So I felt it was invaluable that I know what he means by salvation. I gave my definition and he gave his; we couldn't agree less. Then I re-asked my question about Hiram Abiff and salvation asking to only use my definition... I believe KSigMason jumped in with an answer saying no, it does not "promise" salvation. I replied by emphasizing, twice, my definition does not involve a promise of any kind. I also added that I don't feel any religion promises salvation.

I'm not hung up on the word promise, I am hung up on whether or not Masonry is a religion and if it offers salvation... and I feel I am receiving disingenuous and less than forthright answers and replies. Looking back, I now see it's very clear to Masons, and now me, that Masonry does in fact offer salvation by my definition, a definition which so happens to be a generally accepted English definition of salvation. To which degree Masonry offers salvation is something Masons are not obligated to discuss with me.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
What does 'hele' mean?

article

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


to hide. spelled hail, pronounced hele its ode english about 11th century,, But may go much farther back in use.

have you heard this in the craft before or not?

reply to post by Erbal


i know, i know.

definitions are important. so is context. basicly if you cant prove that freemasonry as a whole actually worships lucifer-- we cant go any further.

a house built of assumptions and so on and so forth--

I'll watch the videos. But I just don't get all this sacrid geometry. Like God has his, the devil has his. Everything surrounding 9/11 had the devils geomotry built into it.

Anyway, is there ways I can use this geomotry? Is it something that I should be concerned about? Like should I avoid traveling on certain months and certain days? Or booking hotels on streets that have the wrong addresses with bad geomotry in them? Or Hold meeting at certain hours and avoid holding them at the witching hour? Like how does all this work? And can I use it to my advantage somehow?

Heres that stuff about 9/11 and how I know the geomotry was satanic..

Originally posted by rainbowbear
have you heard this in the craft before or not?

Yes, but we do not use the Old English version, we just use 'hail'.

reply to post by Erbal

No not at all. Harm can be emotional, physical, and psychological, but I fail to see how this relates to how the 3rd degree promises no salvation.

What happens when one does not stick to their integrity and fidelity, in regards to their life in the same exact context of which you are speaking?

He shows he has limits as to how far his integrity and fidelity goes.

reply to post by Erbal

There's more to the argument of Freemasonry not being a religion.

You can try to twist, but Freemasonry doesn't offer, promise, discuss, propose, suggest, or allege to any form of salvation.

I walk away from this conversation sadden by the fact I simply cannot have a forthright conversation with a Mason when I seek no harm, only more understanding.

I gave you a straightforward answer, but you disagreed. You asked more questions and I gave you my answer. You disagreed and threw it back at us. Hell, we even went so far as to use your definitions not the standard ones. How much do we have to bend to satisfy you?

reply to post by rainbowbear

Well, as you can see we are discussing this issue and it is not a secret.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

I wonder if people understand the etymology of the medical term "heal".

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

right on.

reply to post by KSigMason

Ksig, you are playing word games with me.
I specifically mentioned ulterior interests in regards to harm, you did not include that into your clarification of what you consider harm.

Also you did not honestly answer my question for what is the converse of your statement about the 3rd degree, in the same exact context as you wrote it. The important part you left out is the end part, that a mason MAY lose his life for sticking to their integrity and honor. Well, if there is a reason why losing your life, in the same context of the 3rd degree as you originally wrote it, is something positive you want and strive for, to be denied the chance or opportunity you want would be harmful to your interests. For all I know, Freemasonry teaches we are stuck in an endless loop of mortality and a perfect Mason learns to die so that he can become immortal and/or goto the grand lodge in the sky... I don't know, you won't tell me the straight up truth, you are not allowed to tell me the straight up truth. I'm just searching for truth it's not easy, which is fine by me as long as it's not impossible to find truth.

The rest of your post is claiming I am disagreeing to your straightforward answers, that I am manipulating and twisting Freemasonry to squeeze out some salvation. That is the opposite of the truth. I am asking straightforward questions and you are disagreeing with the implications and twisting my straightforward definitions so Freemasonry does not fit.

If we do not agree to use the same definition of salvation, including the definitions of the key words in that definition like harm, we are not in agreement we are talking about the same thing when we have a conversation using the word salvation or harm. And you know this to be true, you are clearly using it as a deliberate tactic to answer my questions without lying or admitting certain things which you are obligated not to admit.

Originally posted by Erbal
I am asking straightforward questions...

And I gave you two straight forward answers, the second of which you opted to ignore.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
And I gave you two straight forward answers, the second of which you opted to ignore.

I apologize, I read your last answer and intended to address it but I simply forgot to. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicusThe act, the state or the source of being protected from risk or harm and the deliverance from the penalty of sin.

Does that about cover it?

I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful but I need you to clarify your intended message to make sure we are on the same exact page. Wordplay and obfuscation are a subtle craft, I've seen enough already to know asking for clarity instead of making assumptions is invaluable to an outsider conversing with an esoteric insider.

Are you saying: (1)Salvation is the act, the state, or the source of being protected from risk or harm. (2)Salvation is the deliverance from the penalty of sin. (2 independent definitions. Same concept as my definition)

Or are you saying: (1)Salvation is the act, the state or the source of being protected from risk or harm and the deliverance from the penalty of sin. (A single definition with 2 dependent clauses connected by "and". Not the same concept as my definition)