Exposing Freemasons & 33 - Geometry,Astrology, or Devil Worship?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Well, if you break the rules, your posts get removed. I've had my posts removed many times before. It happens to everyone.

reply to post by rainbowbear

Freemasonry is wonderful.

I'd say one of my most religious experiences was hunting through the wilderness of Idaho. I came to a steep edge of a ridge-line and the scene was amazing. There was a bit of fog along the bottom of the valley and the mountains had a bit of snow and frost so they glimmered with the twilight and rise of the sun. My dad and grandfather eventually made it up and we sat there. So because I sat wondering at nature, does that mean I worship nature over God? No! I have felt extremely spiritual and religious moments in Freemasonry, it doesn't mean Freemasonry itself is a religion. If a lesser informed Brother thinks otherwise it would become my duty to inform him otherwise.

If you want to call manipulating and twisting a perk, go for it. I didn't realize that such perversion of something you have no true knowledge of is now considered liberating. It's not illumined or enlightened to give your opinion of a doctrine when in reality it is not that. Cognitive dissidence? I have no conflict as the values espoused are not compatible with any belief I have now or before I joined. I have written no inconsistencies. Nor does not belonging free you from "cognitive dissidence". It seems you're version of liberating is one that is less than to be desired.

Originally posted by rainbowbear
yes we can agree on that.

So are you recanting your previous stance?

SO----no amount of apologies for ANy religion including freemasonry. (how can you say its not religion? really now--are you being honest ND?)

source

What, exactly, is the complete purpose of Freemason rites/rituals imitating Hiram Abiff? Does it involve salvation?

Originally posted by Erbal
What, exactly, is the complete purpose of Freemason rites/rituals imitating Hiram Abiff? Does it involve salvation?

It's a very important part of the masonic journey. Going into detail is one of those things best not said by a mason.
I will tell you what it's not. It's not giving salvation, nor does it have anything to do with Ascension to heaven in the Jesus sense. It does teach an important lesson and done right, it's one of the most moving things in masonry to be a part of. (IMHO)

The ritual is on line different places, but if you have any ideas of going through it, I suggest not looking it up. It's best to experience it with wonder and surprise to get maximum effect.

reply to post by Erbal

He is a central figure in the legend of the building of King Solomon's Temple and he is a figure who displays exemplary integrity, piety, and fidelity.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Erbal
What, exactly, is the complete purpose of Freemason rites/rituals imitating Hiram Abiff? Does it involve salvation?

It's a very important part of the masonic journey. Going into detail is one of those things best not said by a mason.
I will tell you what it's not. It's not giving salvation, nor does it have anything to do with Ascension to heaven in the Jesus sense. It does teach an important lesson and done right, it's one of the most moving things in masonry to be a part of. (IMHO)

The ritual is on line different places, but if you have any ideas of going through it, I suggest not looking it up. It's best to experience it with wonder and surprise to get maximum effect.

Am I correct in assuming we have an unspoken agreement there is a clear distinction between salvation in general and salvation specific to Jesus?

Can you please provide your personal meaning to the word salvation? Without at least that, I literally have no idea what YOU mean by salvation since you are bound by secrecy to explain the ritual in further detail.

I define salvation as a deliverance from harm. In a religious context, salvation is deliverance from a transcendent harm. For example, a deliverance from mortality or sin (in the context of an afterlife) would be a religious salvation. A deliverance from a life separated from the knowledge of how to live a more rich and full life would be a philosophical salvation, if it were for the intent of a transcendent reward or prevention of harm it would be religious salvation.

reply to post by Erbal


salvation to me is the promise of an afterlife or life everlasting. The kind of thing you are promised if you accept Jesus Christ into your heart. I hate to be cryptic but in some cases, it's the best policy.

reply to post by network dude

Well then we agree to disagree on the definition of salvation. Would you consider Masonry and/or Masonic teaching of Hiram Abiff to be in accordance to my definition of salvation?

If to you salvation means a promise of an afterlife or life everlasting, why did you say Masonic rituals involving Hiram Abiff 'do not offer salvation nor do they have anything to do with an ascension to heaven in the Jesus sense'?

Are you being redundant for sake of clarity to uninitiated ears? Are you being evasive and/or cryptic? Something else?

reply to post by Erbal


I was trying to be definitive and not leave a door open. Believe it or not, there are those who would pounce on something I said and claim all of masonry was evil because of it.

The raising of a mason has nothing to do with salvation in my opinion. It's an act that should be an epiphany, but over time.

Originally posted by Erbal
Well then we agree to disagree on the definition of salvation. Would you consider Masonry and/or Masonic teaching of Hiram Abiff to be in accordance to my definition of salvation?

Although you're not addressing me, I would say no. The legends of the 3rd degree gives us only a lesson of fidelity and integrity, not a promise of safety, well-being, or salvation.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Although you're not addressing me, I would say no. The legends of the 3rd degree gives us only a lesson of fidelity and integrity, not a promise of safety, well-being, or salvation.

I have to agree. From the Master Mason lecture:

You have this evening represented one of the greatest and best of men...a man who fell a victim to his fortitude and fidelity.

Nothing about salvation, but to be faithful and true.

reply to post by KSigMason

Hey, the more Masons willing to engage me in a conversation is all the better. It's so difficult to get a straight up answer out of you guys I welcome any and all contributions by Masons.

My definition of salvation has nothing to do with a promise or guarantee of any kind. You can promise salvation, you can offer salvation or a light/guide to a path of salvation... but make no mistake, my definition has no implications whatsoever that salvation itself is contingent on the existence of any promises.

So excuse me if I am misinterpreting your words but I am getting the impression your answer was intentionally disingenuous. I plainly asked: "Would you consider Masonry and/or Masonic teachings of Hiram Abiff to be in accordance with my definition of salvation?" I did not ask if it's in accordance with TheNetworkDude's definition of salvation, a definition which clearly requires a promise unlike mine.

reply to post by Erbal

I guess it all depends on how you ask?

Well you consider salvation as:

I define salvation as a deliverance from harm. In a religious context, salvation is deliverance from a transcendent harm. For example, a deliverance from mortality or sin (in the context of an afterlife) would be a religious salvation. A deliverance from a life separated from the knowledge of how to live a more rich and full life would be a philosophical salvation, if it were for the intent of a transcendent reward or prevention of harm it would be religious salvation.

I would say no as the 3rd degree says basically, one must stick to their integrity, their fidelity (their honor), and may in fact lose their life for doing so. From my experience, I would still say no.

reply to post by KSigMason


Interesting.
Do you consider harm to be purely physical damage? Or do you consider harm as something which extends to ones interests and includes a loss of ulterior interests as harm? (Example: A person loses their license to practice law because of a mistake due to ignorance. This mistake denies their dream to someday be a judge. That person suffered a big loss to their ulterior interests, they were harmed by a mistake made from ignorance.)

And what is the converse of "one must stick to their integrity, their fidelity (their honor), and may in fact lose their life for doing so."? What happens when one does not stick to their integrity and fidelity, in regards to their life in the same exact context of which you are speaking?

reply to post by Erbal


My Dearest Erbal:

I am Pinocchio...
I am not a Freemason. Yet... they provoked me to war for the life of an unborn child who they declared Freemason. I did not fight. He was aborted. Now... I am banished from their graces and the woman (Daughter Of A Master Mason, Deceased.) no longer has any feelings for me whatsoever.
I did not father the child... nor does she love the man who did. Why did they responsibly seek my courage and sacrifice for a love I can not save?

This... They Do! BEWARE OF THEIR CRAFT(S)!

A Long Time Ago... The Freemasons went looking for him. He came... Now What?!?

reply to post by Pinocchio


Hmm, the strangest person I have come across on ATS so far....I've tried to read a few of your posts and just end up completely lost and confused at your lines of argument (seemingly mostly disjointed metaphor).

What is your experience with masonry and religion at large?
Are you the wooden doll from the stories

reply to post by JoshNorton

we agree, as pike said--that freemasonry while religious IN NATURE--is not a religion.

I interpret that different than he, as i should--- because freemasonry IS NOT a religion with a doctrine, and no man can interpret the meanings of freemasonry for another.

no more, no less. this is where i yield.

Originally posted by Erbal
What, exactly, is the complete purpose of Freemason rites/rituals imitating Hiram Abiff? Does it involve salvation?
...
I define salvation as a deliverance from harm. In a religious context, salvation is deliverance from a transcendent harm. For example, a deliverance from mortality or sin (in the context of an afterlife) would be a religious salvation. A deliverance from a life separated from the knowledge of how to live a more rich and full life would be a philosophical salvation, if it were for the intent of a transcendent reward or prevention of harm it would be religious salvation.

No, by your own definition, the Hiram Abiff allegory does not involve salvation.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Erbal
What, exactly, is the complete purpose of Freemason rites/rituals imitating Hiram Abiff? Does it involve salvation?
...
I define salvation as a deliverance from harm. In a religious context, salvation is deliverance from a transcendent harm. For example, a deliverance from mortality or sin (in the context of an afterlife) would be a religious salvation. A deliverance from a life separated from the knowledge of how to live a more rich and full life would be a philosophical salvation, if it were for the intent of a transcendent reward or prevention of harm it would be religious salvation.

No, by your own definition, the Hiram Abiff allegory does not involve salvation.

Is it possible to believe, correctly, that "Hiram Abif" was a victim of foul and odious nature... implying that "Solomon" appeased with the idea that the builder could never return to "Tyre" alive and compromise the "House Of God"??? Thus... none would ever know how to seize it.
Is this acceptable??? I thought it... but not yet convinced.
But history and knowlegable strategies dictate the idea and place it in the "Damn Right" category...

Also... You should know that in the Pentateuch... it is mentioned that the house of god was compromised by a strange culture people who stole the book of the levites and learned how to enter the temple and how everyone moved about. They even learned how to move out of the temple. Creepy!