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Originally posted by Wonderer2012
I'm not an engineer or scientist, but I will say from the video is this-
85% of the structure was solid and undamaged, the top 15% gave way at the point of the plane's impact and came down.
The time of free fall from the top of the WTC is roughly 10 seconds. The building came down in just over 11 seconds.
ARE WE SURELY TO BELIEVE THAT OVER 100 FLOORS OF SOLID STEEL STRUCTURE AND CONCRETE GAVE WAY AT THIS RATE?
The point is you don't have to be an engineer to understand that over 100 floors of solid steel and concrete would offer a lot more resistance than it did. It is unnatural.
Building's destroyed by controlled demolition do not fall at free fall, they fall in time with just over free fall speed, AKA the way the twin towers collapsed on 9/11.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
You expect people to evaluate things on the basis of stupidly inadequate analogies.
Some LEVELS do get crushed in the collapse. But crushing those LEVELS requires energy and that comes from the kinetic energy of the falling mass so it SLOWS DOWN.
That is why it is so absurd for EXPERTS to not demand accurate data on the distributions of steel and concrete of the towers or to talk about the energy required to collapse each LEVEL.
psik
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
You expect people to evaluate things on the basis of stupidly inadequate analogies.
Psikey, you built a model of of paper hoops and a broom handle and you're criticising me for providing a pertinent analogy? You might want to check the thermometer in hell!
Some LEVELS do get crushed in the collapse. But crushing those LEVELS requires energy and that comes from the kinetic energy of the falling mass so it SLOWS DOWN.
Until it falls the next 12 feet to the next floor. Oh yes I forgot you removed that in your model didn't you?
That is why it is so absurd for EXPERTS to not demand accurate data on the distributions of steel and concrete of the towers or to talk about the energy required to collapse each LEVEL.
psik
Do you really believe you're the only physics expert in the world psikey? Is this what we're building up to?
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of physics experts. You are not one of them. None of them endorse your model, and you have admitted yourself your model does not capture any of the behaviours of the WTC with accuracy.
Please, either correct it, or stop hawking it as some irrefutable proof that you're a science expert.
2.4.3 Single Impulse Excitations
Accurate estimation of the tower’s motion during the airplane impact required detailed knowledge of the geometry, weight distribution, and impact velocity of the aircraft, as well as detailed knowledge of the geometry, weight distribution, and structural strength of the tower. At the time of this test series (fall 2003), much of this information was unknown, and the impact motion could only be roughly estimated. To allow this estimate to be made quickly, many simplifying assumptions were made regarding the nature of the impact.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Are you saying that your words can either cause or prevent paper loops to defy the Laws of Physics.
But yes it looks like a lot of people claiming to know physics are full of crap. They are not agreeing with what the NIST says there and they are not demanding the data.
You Blather about 12 feet could only apply to the floor assemblies outside the core. It was 12 feet from the surface of one floor to the surface of the next. The floor plus the truss was about two feet high so it would only be a 10 foot fall.
But notice that you never specify how many connections must be broken around the inner and outer perimeters of those floors for them to break loose. Wouldn't PHYSICS EXPERTS have to take that into account?
psikedit on 27-5-2012 by psikeyhackr because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by Wonderer2012
I'm not an engineer or scientist, but I will say from the video is this-
85% of the structure was solid and undamaged, the top 15% gave way at the point of the plane's impact and came down.
The time of free fall from the top of the WTC is roughly 10 seconds. The building came down in just over 11 seconds.
Your numbers aren't too bad, it's actually closer to 8.5-9.5 seconds for free fall, and about 11-13 seconds for the collapse. Obviously it's obscured by dust so it's very hard to tell.
ARE WE SURELY TO BELIEVE THAT OVER 100 FLOORS OF SOLID STEEL STRUCTURE AND CONCRETE GAVE WAY AT THIS RATE?
The point is you don't have to be an engineer to understand that over 100 floors of solid steel and concrete would offer a lot more resistance than it did. It is unnatural.
Actually you do have to be an engineer to understand the buildings. That is after all the whole point of the degree and qualification lol! If you didn't need specialist knowledge to do this, then there's been a really big scam going on for a lot of years :p
Seriously though, go through the numbers you gave me. The actual acceleration of both collapses was around 2/3rds and 3/4g respectively. That means that a huge amount of energy was absorbed in resistance. Bear in mind that 2/3g means that the lower section slowed the acceleration by 1/3g, which is a pretty substantial amount. It is also inline with the theoretical evidence produced by structural engineers.
I don't doubt that it looks strange and impossible, but once you understand how the building was constructed, and why it was so dependent upon the outer walls, it becomes obvious.
Is there any evidence that would convince you or at least interest you that you might not have the right idea on this topic? I can definitely run through the numbers with you if you'd like.
Building's destroyed by controlled demolition do not fall at free fall, they fall in time with just over free fall speed, AKA the way the twin towers collapsed on 9/11.
Right, you're not far wrong here either. But it's important to remember that controlled demolitions do not remove any mass at all from the building collapsing. What they do is cut the support columns and make sure they fail completely. In 911, once the building started collapsing these support columns were gone, and had no chance of ever stopping the collapse. It proceeded after that point very much like a controlled demolition, in that gravity did all of the work for them.
Anyway a fairly big post in reply, I know there's a lot to take in but don't be fooled by people trying to tell you that the situation is so simple that you don't have to think about it. It takes years and years of study and a lot of motivation to get the knowledge and experience to know how these buildings respond, and we entrust our lives to these people. We owe them some respect at least!
Originally posted by scully222
Hold on a second. The support columns were "gone" once the building started collapsing? Do you actually believe that jet fuel "melted" the columns? If not, where exactly did they go? Did they turn to dust? Or is this just another in the long list of events from that day that defy common sense?
At least you finally admitted that the collapse of the buildings looked like a controlled demolition. You just refuse to admit that could be a possibility.
I agree with you 100%, in order for the buildings to collapse like that the columns would have to be taken out of the way. I believe they were cut with charges and you think they were just gone. Who makes more sense?
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
But notice that you never specify how many connections must be broken around the inner and outer perimeters of those floors for them to break loose. Wouldn't PHYSICS EXPERTS have to take that into account?
psik
They would. They did.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Nice claim. Where is the link to support your claim?
psik
.
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by scully222
Look up what made the connections. Do you even know? And psy, there are computers now. Put down the abacus and the washers.
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by scully222
And psy, there are computers now.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're either exhausted or were in a rush, and didn't double check what you posted. Otherwise, I will need to ask you who the heck are "my buddies who believe the gov't is perfectly capable of aiding the terrorists take control of the plane".? If you don't believe anything else I say, then at least believe this- my buddies in the real world think you truthers are [censored] in the head (their words, not mine). You should be thankful that I'm trying to convince others that you're really not [censored] in the head, but instead you're simply swallowing the paranoid drivel coming fromn those damned fool conspiracy websites.
I can see agents of the government "allowing" an attack to take place in order to further an agenda, but the conspiracy toted on this site is just too far-reaching to be plausible.
Yo've got to be kidding me. You're seriously telling me that Bush, a C average party boy who never grew up, was an expert on every gov't and military report long before he was ever even elected? Are you suffering selective amnesia and conspicuously forgetting how the entire world thought he was a complete idiot?
Then National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice said: “I don’t think that anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon, that they would try to use an airplane as a missile ... even in retrospect there was nothing to suggest that.”
Graham asserts that “after September 11, members of the Bush administration would claim that nobody could have imagined that planes might be used as weapons, during the course of our inquiry, we found that the possibility had been imagined, investigated, and interdicted more than once, and that in one case the Pentagon had been a target”!
...and yet we found out about every single one of them, either from outsiders coming forward to spill the beans, inquisitive journalists, or the government's own incompetence...and yet despite all those other fiascos being exposed, the sinister secret agents were able to keep THIS mega conspiracy of yours secret, despite being more complex and convoluted than all of those others put together times 100. Thank you for mentioning this, as you've just proved my point and disproved yours.
Wait a minute- are you seriously comparing Clinton getting a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky with secret plots to take over the world?
How many times do I have to say this- there are numeous logical reasons for what we saw happening. It's just that you're intentionally ignoring them all and have a pressing need to go straight to the illogical ones. You people certainly aren't stupid, ypou're just listening to a lot of paranoid crackpots who aren't allowing you to think for yourselves.
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
Nice claim. Where is the link to support your claim?
psik
Psikey, let's not play games here. I can link you to the NIST report if you like, but you know that you will not accept anything unless it gives a list of "tons of steel and tons of concrete".
It's the truth isn't it? That no matter what I could provide you, you're going to fall back on wanting something that doesn't exist and likely will never exist?
I just don't want to continue this spiral with you, on a personal level I don't think it's particularly appropriate.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
So you can come up with an excuse for not providing what you claim exists. I am so impressed. But I have the NCSTAR1 report burned to DVD. You don't need to provide me with links to that. Just specify the report number and the page number. But I thought you were talking about something other than the NIST.
Originally posted by ANOK
Wow what a cop out. Just provide the link.
Typical, lot's of text that says nothing. What does it pay per word these days? Just kidding
Originally posted by exponent
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
So you can come up with an excuse for not providing what you claim exists. I am so impressed. But I have the NCSTAR1 report burned to DVD. You don't need to provide me with links to that. Just specify the report number and the page number. But I thought you were talking about something other than the NIST.
There are a number of people other than NIST who have looked at this problem, but we both already know you will not accept their words alone, and you will not take the data from the NIST report and verify it as Gregory Urich did.
If you can tell me something that exists and could be provided to you to change your mind even slightly I would, but anyone can google "tons of steel and tons of concrete" (including the quotes) and find thousands of posts by you, repeating exactly the same thing.
I don't think it's a healthy thing to be doing, and I can't in good conscience have anything to do with encouraging it. If you can come up with something that would satisfy you and is possible, I will do my best, but otherwise I think it is healthier if I do not provoke you.
Originally posted by esdad71
reply to post by scully222
Look up what made the connections. Do you even know? And psy, there are computers now. Put down the abacus and the washers.
Originally posted by psikeyhackr
On Gregory Urich's website I told him where his data contradicts a magazine article from 1970, Engineering Record News, I think it is called. Urich took the total weight of the perimeter wall panels and did a linear interpolation from the 9th floor to the top of the building. But Urich is saying that the panels at the 9th floor were 19 tons. The article says the heaviest panels were 22 tons. But if you try to do a linear interpolation with 22 tons at the bottom the weight of the panels at the top must be less than zero which is impossible.