Arianism - still kicking

This weekend in a thread regarding the Mormon church and whether or not it's a cult (I don't believe it is, by any means) I learned an interesting fact from another ATS member [SNIP] regarding Arianism. I learned that it's still alive and kicking after all this time. I should give some background and why I find this interesting.

I was raised in a Christian home and my faith has always been important to me. I've always tried to find new and different ways of knowing God and appreciating the breadth and depth of who He is. Most of the time I feel like the apostle Paul when he called himself the "chief of sinners" as I always seem to make more than my fair share of mistakes. That said, I'm always continually thankful for the sacrifice that Jesus made. His incarnation, death, burial and resurrection are central to my Christian faith. I believe He has existed since time immemorial and that He was both God and man as he walked among us for those 33 years of His Earthly life. My faith has evolved and deepened greatly over the past several years as I've studied the early Church which eventually led to my wife, daughters and myself entering the Catholic faith this Easter. What hasn't changed is my belief in the Trinity, the divinity of Christ and the fact that Jesus was and is God (triune with the Father and Holy Spirit). I've believed this since I was a child as a Baptist and then non-denominational evangelical.

I've always felt that the crux of our Christian faith is that it wasn't merely a man who hung on the cross, shed His blood for the propitiation for our sins, died and rose from the dead, but rather was literally God Himself incarnate. If it were merely a man dying for us then who cares?

I never want to be the sort of Christian who forces my faith down anyone's throat. I don't presume to know where anyone will spend their eternity or what their relationship to God is (or isn't) like. [SNIP] Now, I fully understand that all members of all churches and philosophies don't always subscribe 100% to their own precepts and ideals outlined in said church or philosophy, but what about those ideals and precepts that are core beliefs?

Last evening as I was working a very slow clinic shift (I'm studying to be a physician here in New Orleans) I talked with a patient who happened to be a Methodist minister. He had a embroidered Methodist cross and flame on his polo, so I asked what he did. When he said he was a minister in the Methodist church I started talking with him about their core beliefs. I showed him a few posts from the ATS thread regarding whether Jesus was, in fact, God. He reminded me something that I'd completely forgotten from RCIA classes last fall - that this heretical belief is called Arianism. Here's a few links regarding Arius and the Council of Nicea:

www.newadvent.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

You can, of course, find much more via your library or Google searches.

I find the account of Arius very interesting as it relates to the question Jesus posed in Mark 8, Luke 9 and Matthew 16 - "Who do men say that I am?"

There are a few mentions of Arianism here on ATS, but for those who've not studied the subject or were only tangentially aware of it (as I was) you might find it very interesting.

My posting of this topic is not to convince anyone of any facts, theories or beliefs; that's between you and God (or you and yourself if you're atheist or agnostic). I merely want to point out that it's interesting that this specific belief is still very much alive in modern Christian thinking. I'm sure I'll get comments stating that I'm crazy for my Christian faith or for being Catholic or who knows what. That's fine though as debate can sometimes lead to new discoveries.

S&F. I've never heard of Arianism.
It sounds very interesting and I'm looking forward to learning about it.
Thank you for bringing up this interesting topic.

That'll be a lot to read, but I was under the impression that Arianism was only concerning the nazis belief about tall blondes... though I knew it was anchored to something older, I had never looked for it.

I admit I am surprised, and thanks for the info!

Originally posted by NowanKenubi
That'll be a lot to read, but I was under the impression that Arianism was only concerning the nazis belief about tall blondes... though I knew it was anchored to something older, I had never looked for it.

I admit I am surprised, and thanks for the info!

I believe that's Aryanism. Slightly different spelling, but certainly sounds the same.

I don't care what it's called, there are plenty of Christians today, and have been throughout history, that don't believe that Jesus and the god of the OT are one in the same entity or believe the trinity theory to be true.

No newsflash there.

Jesus was sent to earth by god, his boss, to teach the way, again. The Torah, that was given to Moses had been corrupted, and Jesus was sent to re-teach and explain to simple folks the mysteries of mysticism that the Jewish leaders had corrupted and withheld from their people.

Jesus was a missionary, teacher and a medic who was drafted as a reluctant savior, at best, and didn't want to die.

I believe the Catholic Church has done more to destroy and distort the true purpose of the life and teachings of Jesus than Satan himself, who is Jesus' unbeggoten brother, according to several belief systems.

reply to post by windword


Those are very interesting points, Windword.

reply to post by HardToStarboard


Of course it's still alive and well. There is nothing new under the Sun. Look around there parts, there are a couple Arians posting here regularly.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by NowanKenubi
That'll be a lot to read, but I was under the impression that Arianism was only concerning the nazis belief about tall blondes... though I knew it was anchored to something older, I had never looked for it.

I admit I am surprised, and thanks for the info!

I believe that's Aryanism. Slightly different spelling, but certainly sounds the same.

LOL, yeah, different kind of Ariyanism. Arianism is named for a guy name Arius. The Council of Nicaea was convened to address the Arian heresy. And it was a virtually unanimous vote against Arius. Only one person voted with Arius and it was the companion he brought with him to the council.

reply to post by HardToStarboard


Jesus is my Lord and Savior

I believe that the Trinity is a conspiracy.


There is an interesting article in the Encyclopedia Britannica on the Trinity

Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.

Encyclopedi Britannica

So the word "Trinity" does not appear in scripture.

Nor was it taught by Jesus or his Apostles.

I've always felt that the crux of our Christian faith is that it wasn't merely a man who hung on the cross, shed His blood for the propitiation for our sins, died and rose from the dead, but rather was literally God Himself incarnate. If it were merely a man dying for us then who cares?

When Adam sinned, he passed sin to all his offspring.

God then promised a seed would come.

From that point on faithful humans were to give God a sacrifice of there best, a burnt offering of an animal, to acknowledge there sin.

God later sent His best.

Jesus was sent to the earth to prove a human could live without sinning. More importantly God knew that the world would reject Jesus and Jesus would be killed. This sacrificial death of a perfect human life would balance the scales.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Jesus would make up for Adamic sin. Romans 5:12-21 1Cor 15:22




Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, the only begotten Son of God.

Proof that Jesus is a distinct being.

John 8:17,18

17 and also in your law it hath been written, that the testimony of two men are true;

18 I am [one] who is testifying of myself, and the Father who sent me doth testify of me

Mark 13:32

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man — no, not the angels who are in Heaven, neither the Son, but only the Father

John 14:28

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 11:3

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

There are many scriptures that show Jesus is a distinct being.

There are scriptures that show the unity of Jesus and God Almighty. Jesus is a perfect reflection of his Father.

The apple does not fall far from the tree.....


However there are no scriptures that ever talk about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being three in one.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HardToStarboard

 

Of course it's still alive and well. There is nothing new under the Sun. Look around there parts, there are a couple Arians posting here regularly.

Indeed. It just hadn't occurred to me explicitly that Christians still believed this. It's not surprising; I simply wasn't giving it any thought until the user I mentioned demonstrated the belief on the Mormon thread.

Aside from a great post and an offering of new insights on a true condition of man, I would be weary of indoctrinating yourself with Catholicism; the Devil resides in the Vatican and under those papel powers I would be very leary indeed!

However, I am quite certain that Peter, the last Pope, envisioned by way of a prophetic process through Malachy will open the coffers of his broken palace and feed his people in the end. There will be time to rejoice and to regain the Truth and ask for forgiveness!

I am happy that I do not see GOD without the Son or vice-versa; however, to reach out ot the Father excluding the Son in the process is not as detrimental as it is to reach out to the Son excluding the Father. As Jesus the man was born of the Father he is the Father, not the other way around. Sad that so many venerate Jesus as an idol outside of the Father, or the Mother for that matter!

Ishtar is the Holy Mother in the eyes of Catholics, Mary is not and was not to be worshipped nor prayed upon for Mercy! She was simply the vessel, not the Creator, not the Power. JMHO!

GOD Bless!

Originally posted by HardToStarboard

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by HardToStarboard

 

Of course it's still alive and well. There is nothing new under the Sun. Look around there parts, there are a couple Arians posting here regularly.

Indeed. It just hadn't occurred to me explicitly that Christians still believed this. It's not surprising; I simply wasn't giving it any thought until the user I mentioned demonstrated the belief on the Mormon thread.

Oh yes, alive and well. Arianism is an offshoot of Gnosticism actually. All of that came from Alexandria, Egypt. I sent you a PM.

reply to post by dusty1


Umm the Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the Shema either. We call God "Him" not "Them".

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Umm the Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the Shema either. We call God "Him" not "Them".

Why do you call God, Him, and not use His Divine Name?

reply to post by dusty1


I've talked at length with some friends who are United Pentecostal who don't believe in the Trinity either. It's certainly an interesting viewpoint and I see how one can come to that conclusion. It's always a huge can of worms when a specific term isn't in the Bible and people start to use it (e.g. - the word "rapture"). I don't want to splinter the thread off into sola scriptura though.

Thanks for the post.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Umm the Trinity doctrine doesn't contradict the Shema either. We call God "Him" not "Them".

Why do you call God, Him, and not use His Divine Name?

I do when I'm specifically speaking of the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
reply to post by dusty1

 

I've talked at length with some friends who are United Pentecostal who don't believe in the Trinity either. It's certainly an interesting viewpoint and I see how one can come to that conclusion. It's always a huge can of worms when a specific term isn't in the Bible and people start to use it (e.g. - the word "rapture"). I don't want to splinter the thread off into sola scriptura though.

Thanks for the post.

They aren't "United Pentecostals", you're talking about "Oneness Pentecostals". And they have a heretical view of the nature of God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by HardToStarboard
reply to post by dusty1

 

I've talked at length with some friends who are United Pentecostal who don't believe in the Trinity either. It's certainly an interesting viewpoint and I see how one can come to that conclusion. It's always a huge can of worms when a specific term isn't in the Bible and people start to use it (e.g. - the word "rapture"). I don't want to splinter the thread off into sola scriptura though.

Thanks for the post.

They aren't "United Pentecostals", you're talking about "Oneness Pentecostals". And they have a heretical view of the nature of God.

I always thought the two were synonymous. I've heard "oneness" used and assumed it was UP. Thanks for the clarification.

reply to post by HardToStarboard

I've talked at length with some friends who are United Pentecostal who don't believe in the Trinity either. It's certainly an interesting viewpoint and I see how one can come to that conclusion. It's always a huge can of worms when a specific term isn't in the Bible and people start to use it (e.g. - the word "rapture"). I don't want to splinter the thread off into sola scriptura though. Thanks for the post.

Thank you for the thread!


I believe that Jehovah or Yaweh, is God Almighty. The same way that Abraham understood God.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God Almighty (but a distinct being)

Holy Spirit is God's active force, but not an individual




God Almighty, being one God, is the original view of His existence.



Anything else came thousands of years later.

Or hundreds of years after Christ.

Gets the name for Arius Piso.
www.abovetopsecret.com...