Pi, Golden Ratio and Speed of Light encoded into Great Pyramid

Originally posted by Harte
Your wiki link states that the sexagesimal system was invented in Sumer. It says nothing about the Sumerians using it invent the concept of standard hours, minutes or seconds.

All of this can be easily verified at another wiki page here.

Harte

You should look at the links I posted yesterday on this page. I didn't see any evidence of an exact sumerian timed hour when I looked briefly in January (but it was pretty obvious from the Sumerian mathematical tablets I saw that sexagesimal division of the circle implies 60 minutes and 60 seconds). But I found it now. You can update your information about the origins of the second, minute and hour.

en.wikipedia.org...
"In the Archaic System time notation was written in the U4 System U. Multiple lunisolar calendars existed; however the civil calendar from the holy city of Nippur (Ur III period) was adopted by Babylon as their civil calendar.[6] The calendar of Nippur dates to 3500 BCE and was itself based on older astronomical knowledge of an uncertain origin. The main astronomical cycles used to construct the calendar were the synodic month, equinox year, and sideral day."


"Although not directly derived from it, there is a 1:2 proportional relationship between SI and Sumerian metrology. SI inherited the convention of the second as 1/86,400th of a solar day from Sumer thus, two Sumerian seconds are approximately one SI second.[8]"

"The calendar of Nippur dates to 3500 BCE and was itself based on older astronomical knowledge of an uncertain origin."

It's a little hard to actually date some of these conventions, you ask yourself were these numbers kludged up to fit the prior art or were the ancient astronomers and mathematicians that far sighted?

Take for example the meter length standard.

en.wikipedia.org...

Delambre and Mechain chose 1⁄10,000,000 part of the quarter of a meridian as published back in 1795.
The speed of light standard with 9 significant digits in the denominator wasn't published till 1983.

Its puzzling, modern atomic clocks are stable and accurate over such short periods but perhaps the ancients used very long period Egyptian astronomical observations of at least 4200 years?

Originally posted by Cauliflower
It's a little hard to actually date some of these conventions, you ask yourself were these numbers kludged up to fit the prior art or were the ancient astronomers and mathematicians that far sighted?

Yes, I doubt the origins are in Sumer either. The origins are probably with some smart proto human, hundreds of thousands/millions of years ago. All you have to do is count the cycles of the stars and moon and be inclined towards playing with numbers in your head. A pendulum require zero technology.

The constants come from the natural structure of numbers, and the orbits of the planets fit that structure too.

Originally posted by yampa
But I found it now. You can update your information about the origins of the second, minute and hour.

en.wikipedia.org...
"In the Archaic System time notation was written in the U4 System U. Multiple lunisolar calendars existed; however the civil calendar from the holy city of Nippur (Ur III period) was adopted by Babylon as their civil calendar.[6] The calendar of Nippur dates to 3500 BCE and was itself based on older astronomical knowledge of an uncertain origin. The main astronomical cycles used to construct the calendar were the synodic month, equinox year, and sideral day."

"Although not directly derived from it, there is a 1:2 proportional relationship between SI and Sumerian metrology. SI inherited the convention of the second as 1/86,400th of a solar day from Sumer thus, two Sumerian seconds are approximately one SI second.[8]"

A calendar is not used to count seconds. Your quote indicates only that the sexagecimal system that is used to divide hours into seconds arose in Sumer, not that actual seconds did. Your chart indicates this very fact - showing for us all to see that there was neither second nor minute in any Sumerian time measuring system.

Originally posted by yampa"The calendar of Nippur dates to 3500 BCE and was itself based on older astronomical knowledge of an uncertain origin."

That is a disturbing amount of squirming!

60 x 60 x 24 = 86400 - ya ken?

en.wikipedia.org...

"A seconds pendulum is a pendulum whose period is precisely two seconds; one second for a swing in one direction and one second for the return swing, a frequency of 1/2 Hz. At standard gravity its length is 0.994 m (39.1 in). "

The pyramids were built by man, but the designs, the tools, and the guidance of this structure was done by something else. Egyptians worshiped gods which were fallen angels, demons if you will. they had divine knowledge and technology that today you would say "aliens" posses. That is why these ancient civilizations had these incredible structures and technology, it is because their "gods" brought them to them.

Originally posted by yampa
That is a disturbing amount of squirming!

60 x 60 x 24 = 86400 - ya ken?

en.wikipedia.org...

"A seconds pendulum is a pendulum whose period is precisely two seconds; one second for a swing in one direction and one second for the return swing, a frequency of 1/2 Hz. At standard gravity its length is 0.994 m (39.1 in). "

edit on 10-8-2013 by yampa because: (no reason given)

Yes, I "ken."

The wiki link you provided states that there would be 86400 "Sumerian" seconds in a day.

However, Sumerians never developed the second, as your chart clearly shows. Your number, 86,400, appears in that chart under the heading "Ideal Value." The chart title is "Basic Time," not "Sumerian Time Units." In that chart, each Sumerian unit is translated into seconds of ideal time because seconds is the base unit in the SI system of time measurement. You will note that there is no Sumerian second, which would translate into one second (or thereabout) in SI units.

On the same page, if you scroll up, you will find similar tables concerning capacity, length, weight, etc. In each, the Sumerian unit is translated into the corresponding base unit in the SI system, also under the heading "Ideal Value."

So in reality, you are insisting here that Sumerians invented the metric system.

Either reading comprehension is not exactly your strong point, or you are purposefully misreading and misrepresenting your sources in order to further some inane concept that's part of your skewed worldview.

If you are so certain of your claim, why not provide us with actual evidence - say, a peer-reviewed Anthropology or Assyriology paper concerning the Sumerian invention of the second, or the minute, or a Sumerian establishment of a standardized hour? I mean, I know why you don't do this. But, do you?

Harte

I never said the Sumerians invented the second. I said I believe the second is a natural unit that the Sumerians rediscovered.

And yes, I am saying that some of the metric system of units are a form of natural unit too. That is the subject of this thread - how did the AE put a pyramid on a latitude which includes modern units? That is the question I am attempting to answer.

Thanks for pointing out the Sumerian units table, that is helpful to my argument:

1 sumerian cubit = 0.497m 'ideal'. So a pendulum with a rod length of 2 * 0.497m = 0.994m

Again:
"A seconds pendulum is a pendulum whose period is precisely two seconds; one second for a swing in one direction and one second for the return swing, a frequency of 1/2 Hz. At standard gravity its length is 0.994 m (39.1 in). "

So, according to that table, a pendulum of exactly 2 sumerian cubits will swing exactly 86400 times day.

The links I've posted look like they come from academic origins and include references, but if you'd like to point out a specific error, or tell me which thing I've quoted is incorrect, please do. I'm disregarding semantics as a legitimate argument (since we are talking about natural physical constants, not wordplay).

Originally posted by yampa
I never said the Sumerians invented the second. I said I believe the second is a natural unit that the Sumerians rediscovered.

And yes, I am saying that some of the metric system of units are a form of natural unit too. That is the subject of this thread - how did the AE put a pyramid on a latitude which includes modern units? That is the question I am attempting to answer.

Thanks for pointing out the Sumerian units table, that is helpful to my argument:

1 sumerian cubit = 0.497m 'ideal'. So a pendulum with a rod length of 2 * 0.497m = 0.994m

Again:
"A seconds pendulum is a pendulum whose period is precisely two seconds; one second for a swing in one direction and one second for the return swing, a frequency of 1/2 Hz. At standard gravity its length is 0.994 m (39.1 in). "

So, according to that table, a pendulum of exactly 2 sumerian cubits will swing exactly 86400 times day.

The links I've posted look like they come from academic origins and include references, but if you'd like to point out a specific error, or tell me which thing I've quoted is incorrect, please do. I'm disregarding semantics as a legitimate argument (since we are talking about natural physical constants, not wordplay).

According to your own post above, the pendulum would swing 43,200 times in a 24 hour period. Misreading again, or do you mean a half-swing?

So, you couldn't find any evidence that Sumerian hours were all the same length as each other (standardized)?

Can you show any association in Sumerology between 2 cubits (or even one cubit) and the measurement of time?

For your consideration:

The day was subdivided sexagesimally, that is by 1⁄60, by 1⁄60 of that, by 1⁄60 of that, etc., to at least six places after the sexagesimal point (a precision of better than 2 microseconds) by the Babylonians after 300 BC. For example, six fractional sexagesimal places of a day was used in their specification of the length of the year, although they were unable to measure such a small fraction of a day in real time.

Even in Babylonia, when the length of the day was fractionalized sexagesimally, the fraction of the day that corresponds to what we refer to as a second was not used for time measurement, rather to express great precision in the overall length of an actual day (which, as you are aware, is not exactly 24 hours long.)

More:

The Babylonians did not use the hour, but did use a double-hour lasting 120 modern minutes, a time-degree lasting four modern minutes, and a barleycorn lasting 31⁄3 modern seconds (the helek of the modern Hebrew calendar), but did not sexagesimally subdivide these smaller units of time. No sexagesimal unit of the day was ever used as an independent unit of time.

And that's the Babylonians. Not only were they far advanced over their Sumerian ancestral culture, they inherited the very sexagesimal system and the divisions of the day from them. These they improved on (as noted in the first quote) by further fractionalizing because they could measure the length of the day more accurately.

IOW, the division of a day into seconds originated with the Babylonians as a mathematical fractionalization of the length of the day, but was not used by them (or, obviously, by the Sumerians.) This is because the period we call a second was to small for them to measure.

Once more precise means of measuring elapsed time (and degrees of arc, BTW) were developed, then the second came into use:

In 1000, the Persian scholar al-Biruni gave the times of the new moons of specific weeks as a number of days, hours, minutes, seconds, thirds, and fourths after noon Sunday.

All quotes from here.

I know it's wiki, but it's short, sweet, easy to link to and open, and it corresponds with what I've been able to find in the academic (and thus real) literature on the subject.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
According to your own post above, the pendulum would swing 43,200 times in a 24 hour period. Misreading again, or do you mean a half-swing?

Yes, maybe I have misread - swing, half-swing, beat, half beat, 43200 or 86400 seconds, whatever - name your sexagesimal periods whatever you like.

There is a really nice diagram on the wikipedia ancient mesopotamian units of measurement page, it talks about a seconds pendulum being used as part of sumerian calender metrology (the thing you think has nothing to do with seconds):
en.wikipedia.org...
See: Sumerian_Calendar_ISO_B0.svg
upload.wikimedia.org...



Perhaps you could email the person who wrote that diagram and set them straight using the compelling arguments you have presented here? I fail to see why sumerian seconds are an issue for you, all this information does is compound the potential intelligence of the old kingdom egyptians. It's quite likely they're interlinked?

I can get what I need from those type of seconds, and I can proceed to look at how this fits into the ability to calculate the speed of light using moon orbits and numerical constants.

Originally posted by yampa

Originally posted by Harte
According to your own post above, the pendulum would swing 43,200 times in a 24 hour period. Misreading again, or do you mean a half-swing?

Yes, maybe I have misread - swing, half-swing, beat, half beat, 43200 or 86400 seconds, whatever - name your sexagesimal periods whatever you like.

There is a really nice diagram on the wikipedia ancient mesopotamian units of measurement page, it talks about a seconds pendulum being used as part of sumerian calender metrology (the thing you think has nothing to do with seconds)

That's the Ur III calendar, adopted by Babylonia.

The calendar (and the more precise time measurements in general) were invented about 200 or so years before Babylonia became the major player in the region.

I agree that it is confusing that they call it the "Sumerian" calendar. The reason is that every culture that came after Sumer in the region for thousands of years utilized the Sumerian language as the "official" government or liturgical language (while speaking and writing in a different language for nonofficial uses,) similar to the way Latin was used long after its popular extinction This is why you can almost always find the Akkadian and Babylonian Empires being referred to a "Sumerian."

In another quirk, Assyria came about MUCH later than Sumer, yet people who study Sumer itself are referred to as "Assyriologists." LOL

Originally posted by yampaPerhaps you could email the person who wrote that diagram and set them straight using the compelling arguments you have presented here?

I assume they know what they're talking about, since it's from the third dynasty of Ur, which was basically after the Akkadian Empire and immediately preceded the rise of Babylonia (which existed at that time as a minor power) as I stated previously.

Originally posted by yampa I fail to see why sumerian seconds are an issue for you, all this information does is compound the potential intelligence of the old kingdom egyptians. It's quite likely they're interlinked?

They are certainly interlinked. Historically, as well as logically in that neither Mesopotamians nor Egyptians had any means for determining the speed of light.

Please note that a pendulum will not swing all day by itself, and none of these cultures ever developed anything more accurate than a water clock. The pendulum displayed on your linked page cannot be used to determine the passage of time and was not used that way - according to actual records left by actual mesopotamian cultures.

Originally posted by yampaI can get what I need from those type of seconds, and I can proceed to look at how this fits into the ability to calculate the speed of light using moon orbits and numerical constants.

Don't forget that they had to develop a system of lattitude/longitude that was precisely the same as the one we use today. Good luck with both endeavors, you'll need it.

Harte

"The Classical Mesopotamian system formed the basis for Elamite, Hebrew, Urartian, Hurrian, Hittite, Ugaritic, Phoenician, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Arabic, and Islamic metrologies.[7] The Classical Mesopotamian System also has a proportional relationship, by virtue of standardized commerce, to Bronze Age Harappan and Egyptian metrologies."

Originally posted by yampa
"The Classical Mesopotamian system formed the basis for Elamite, Hebrew, Urartian, Hurrian, Hittite, Ugaritic, Phoenician, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Arabic, and Islamic metrologies.[7] The Classical Mesopotamian System also has a proportional relationship, by virtue of standardized commerce, to Bronze Age Harappan and Egyptian metrologies."

Yes, historically associated, as I said.

Note that your quote from wiki above states that the relationship between Egyptian and Mesopotamian metrology was proportional. Note also the statement that this proportionality was established by virtue of commerce.

This means that they both knew how to convert from one system to the other. How else could they trade?

You're gonna have a hard time establishing an Egyptian second for your speed of light speculation. The Egyptians didn't use the sexagesimal system.

As a courtesy, I suggest you read the info at this link before you spend a lot of time tracking down the Egyptian second and/or meter.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
Note that your quote from wiki above states that the relationship between Egyptian and Mesopotamian metrology was proportional. Note also the statement that this proportionality was established by virtue of commerce.

This means that they both knew how to convert from one system to the other. How else could they trade?

You're gonna have a hard time establishing an Egyptian second for your speed of light speculation. The Egyptians didn't use the sexagesimal system.

As a courtesy, I suggest you read the info at this link before you spend a lot of time tracking down the Egyptian second and/or meter.

Now I ain't no student, of ancient culture
Before I talk
I should read a book. (Mesopotamia, that's where I wanna go)
But there's one thing that I do know, (Mesopotamia, that's where I wanna go)
There's a lot of pendulums in Me-so-po-tamia!

reply to post by niceguybob


Stones that were not the same size cut and dimensioned to fit together perfectly, was it just luck of where the pyramids are placed in relation to the earths center, or the offset of the center stone of the pyramid of Giza only being off by a few centimenters from the base, there are architects today that cannot explain these facts, also if you look at Baalbek and the humongous stones that were cut, moved and placed for the original base this needs explanation, it is way beyond any human slave force or collective human labor to have accomplished, with the precision that the stones were dimensioned and placed.

They also had statues like the ones of Horus that were in almost perfect symmetry that needs explanation of how they were cast and done with such great precision, I believe they are in the British Museum and also Cairo.

Here are some pictures that i found that have the sculptures

I think many clues are there, in the art history that has been left, if these specimens represent the well built physiques of the kings and queens of ancient Egypt then we have to wonder, if physics and physiques had anything to do with stones being cut and moved, then what size were these people? and they had to have been of a high physical condition to have done the stone building and also of a super high intellect to have made all of the mathematical connections/linkage to the stars, placement on the earth and also relate them geometrically to other structures thousands of miles away, I do not think any of this was an accident nor was it done with hand tools and regular human labor.

I think we fool ourselves when we compare even our greatest architectures today, I bet that none of our skyscrapers will last 3000 years plus to been seen intact or close to it for generations 3 - 4 thousand years or more from now, 100 years on any building now and its falling apart, what do you think?

Originally posted by yampa

You can count time with a pendulum. A pendulum with a rod of 99% of the length of a meter will swing 86400 times day. That was the case with the Sumerians, the Egyptians and us today.

Sarcasm and semantics does not a good discussion make.

360 degree circle = 4 quadrants of 90 degrees - right?

Is there a record of pendulums in the archaeological record of AE? Did the AE use 360 and or quadrants in any form?

But I see Harte has been on the case and asking all the right questions

reply to post by yampa


I could say the same thing, with 'two belts' going around the world you should be able to find a number of cities, towns, places and burials within them.